Author Topic: Please help with this Fokker  (Read 4503 times)

Offline GazzaS

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Please help with this Fokker
« on: May 27, 2020, 07:37:32 PM »
HI everyone,
    This is an expanded image of a small photo I found online last year.  There isn't much that I know about Fokkers.  I usually study Alb's and Pfalz's.

I have two Fokker D.VII Kits.  The Goering F,and the D.VII (ALB).  I don't know which kit closest fits this picture.  And I'll need to get some Aviatik decals.  But I don't know if I need 4-color or 5-color.

And the tail colors...  White and black?  Which Jasta?



Any help will be greatly appreciated!

Gaz
« Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 06:43:38 AM by GazzaS »
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Offline bobs_buckles

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Re: Please help with this Fokker
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2020, 09:42:48 PM »
I can't see anything!

 ::)

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Offline GazzaS

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Re: Please help with this Fokker
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2020, 06:44:31 AM »
Fixed it.

The Tail art seems to match this Jasta 71 machine.  Though I'm still unclear about the colors.


But everywhere I look for Jasta colors, I find this about the Jasta:  "Jasta 71 = white tailplane with 3 longitudinal stripes; red fin"



Edit:  After more digging I find this profile for the Lude machine


I like the red and white, but that's just preference.

But I'm still at a loss for the actual type of D.VII
« Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 07:15:26 AM by GazzaS »
There are only two states to be in:  Queensland and blotto.

Offline petrov27

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Re: Please help with this Fokker
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2020, 10:14:29 PM »
I feel like it may be late OAW built, same batch as the "Lude" aircraft pictured above
-Patrick

Offline Mossie

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Re: Please help with this Fokker
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2020, 10:44:45 PM »
If the engine cowls are painted green/mauve like "Lude" then OAW, the rudder cross is a late indicator. Jasta 71 seems reasonable. Image is not clear wnough to see any serial or Werke numbers.
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Offline Berman

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Re: Please help with this Fokker
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2020, 11:20:40 PM »
The horizontal stabilizer stripes look too light to be black or red. If this photo was taken with orthochromatic film, red appears almost as dark as black. Stripes could be blue or green.

Offline GazzaS

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Re: Please help with this Fokker
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2020, 07:55:41 AM »
If the engine cowls are painted green/mauve like "Lude" then OAW, the rudder cross is a late indicator. Jasta 71 seems reasonable. Image is not clear wnough to see any serial or Werke numbers.

THank you.  I believe that the werke numbers would be covered up by the fuselage band, which attracts me to this scheme.

The horizontal stabilizer stripes look too light to be black or red. If this photo was taken with orthochromatic film, red appears almost as dark as black. Stripes could be blue or green.

Thank you.  I don't know of any Jastas that used blue or green longitudinal stripes, unfortunately.

I feel like it may be late OAW built, same batch as the "Lude" aircraft pictured above


Thank you.  I have the same feeling.  Hopefully my kit has the right louvres for the job.
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Offline RAGIII

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Re: Please help with this Fokker
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2020, 08:43:53 AM »

I asked well known Aviation Modeler and Historian Stephen Lawson if he had any info on this aircraft. This is his response. He also has contacted Greg van Wyngarden so more info May be coming. I hope this helps.
RAGIII



Greetings Richard,  Its taken at the French turn in the Armee Gruppe Albrecht. Collection airfield, Saarbrücken Germany November -December 1918.  The striped tail bird is probably from Jasta 54s  (a Saxon unit). It appears to be an earlier OAW but someone attached a later OAW forward cowling side panel (?)  Unusual indeed
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Offline Black Max 72

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Re: Please help with this Fokker
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2020, 10:31:08 AM »
The Fokker in the background appears to be one of Raben's red nosed Jasta 18 birds and the dark stripes on the foreground Fokker appear to be the same tone as the Jasta 18 Fokker's nose. So my guess would be white edged red diamonds on red bands and a guess for the lighter coloured bands could possibly be blue? Maybe the pilot was from Schleswig-Holstein? Walter Ewers's Jasta 77 Pfalz D.IIIa 8143/17 wore these colours on the top wing which were inspired by the flag of Schleswig-Holstein, Ewers's birthplace (Actually the flag is horizontal Red, White and Blue, like and inverted Dutch flag. Just a guess but I don't think a German Jadgflieger would be popular painting red, white and blue bands on his aircraft! ;)). Just a thought.

Dave Rickard
Rockhampton QLD

Offline GazzaS

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Re: Please help with this Fokker
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2020, 10:48:33 AM »

I asked well known Aviation Modeler and Historian Stephen Lawson if he had any info on this aircraft. This is his response. He also has contacted Greg van Wyngarden so more info May be coming. I hope this helps.
RAGIII



Greetings Richard,  Its taken at the French turn in the Armee Gruppe Albrecht. Collection airfield, Saarbrücken Germany November -December 1918.  The striped tail bird is probably from Jasta 54s  (a Saxon unit). It appears to be an earlier OAW but someone attached a later OAW forward cowling side panel (?)  Unusual indeed

Richard,
    Thank you for that.  That's great news!  As much as I was liking a red and white tail, I feel a bit better with more knowledge behind it.  Adding an OAW panel is really going to add some visual interest to this model.  And googling Jasta 54 got me this skin:


The Fokker in the background appears to be one of Raben's red nosed Jasta 18 birds and the dark stripes on the foreground Fokker appear to be the same tone as the Jasta 18 Fokker's nose. So my guess would be white edged red diamonds on red bands and a guess for the lighter coloured bands could possibly be blue? Maybe the pilot was from Schleswig-Holstein? Walter Ewers's Jasta 77 Pfalz D.IIIa 8143/17 wore these colours on the top wing which were inspired by the flag of Schleswig-Holstein, Ewers's birthplace (Actually the flag is horizontal Red, White and Blue, like and inverted Dutch flag. Just a guess but I don't think a German Jadgflieger would be popular painting red, white and blue bands on his aircraft! ;)). Just a thought.

Dave Rickard
Rockhampton QLD

Dave,
   Thank you for your input.  I actually spent quite a lot of time looking up potential Wappen for the fuselage band design.  The colors are a bit different, and I'll save the information for the reveal.  One critical connection is the tail markings.  I can believe Green and white much more than a three colored design.  Hopefully I won't stuff it up.  Anyway....no matter what I do, there'll always be potential for it to be wrong and forever lost to the doubts of history.

Gaz Bethania QLD
 
There are only two states to be in:  Queensland and blotto.

Offline Black Max 72

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Re: Please help with this Fokker
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2020, 11:01:58 AM »

I asked well known Aviation Modeler and Historian Stephen Lawson if he had any info on this aircraft. This is his response. He also has contacted Greg van Wyngarden so more info May be coming. I hope this helps.
RAGIII



Greetings Richard,  Its taken at the French turn in the Armee Gruppe Albrecht. Collection airfield, Saarbrücken Germany November -December 1918.  The striped tail bird is probably from Jasta 54s  (a Saxon unit). It appears to be an earlier OAW but someone attached a later OAW forward cowling side panel (?)  Unusual indeed

Richard,
    Thank you for that.  That's great news!  As much as I was liking a red and white tail, I feel a bit better with more knowledge behind it.  Adding an OAW panel is really going to add some visual interest to this model.  And googling Jasta 54 got me this skin:


The Fokker in the background appears to be one of Raben's red nosed Jasta 18 birds and the dark stripes on the foreground Fokker appear to be the same tone as the Jasta 18 Fokker's nose. So my guess would be white edged red diamonds on red bands and a guess for the lighter coloured bands could possibly be blue? Maybe the pilot was from Schleswig-Holstein? Walter Ewers's Jasta 77 Pfalz D.IIIa 8143/17 wore these colours on the top wing which were inspired by the flag of Schleswig-Holstein, Ewers's birthplace (Actually the flag is horizontal Red, White and Blue, like and inverted Dutch flag. Just a guess but I don't think a German Jadgflieger would be popular painting red, white and blue bands on his aircraft! ;)). Just a thought.

Dave Rickard
Rockhampton QLD

Dave,
   Thank you for your input.  I actually spent quite a lot of time looking up potential Wappen for the fuselage band design.  The colors are a bit different, and I'll save the information for the reveal.  One critical connection is the tail markings.  I can believe Green and white much more than a three colored design.  Hopefully I won't stuff it up.  Anyway....no matter what I do, there'll always be potential for it to be wrong and forever lost to the doubts of history.

Gaz Bethania QLD
 

Very true Gaz, besides no one can tell you your wrong, the interpretation is all in the eye of the beholder, that's all part of the fun! I agree with the Jasta 54 Green and white tail feathers though. Whatever way you go it sure has the potential to be one colourful looking bird that's for sure, I'm looking forward to what you come up with. Good luck

Dave Rickard
Rockhampton QLD

Offline Vickers

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Re: Please help with this Fokker
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2020, 01:32:22 PM »
This one is an interesting find, Gaz. It appears to be a good candidate for some informed artistic license, which can be a wonderful break from well-known machines that box the modeler in tightly in their decisions at the bench. For me, one of the toughest obstacles has often been deciding that I've located sufficient information to move on a project. It can really take the fun out of it I obsess over the uncertainties so much that I can't even get started.

The graphic shapes and contrasts on this scheme are really striking, though, and whatever 'best guess colors' you decide to use ought to look great.
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Offline GazzaS

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Re: Please help with this Fokker
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2020, 01:54:32 PM »
This one is an interesting find, Gaz. It appears to be a good candidate for some informed artistic license, which can be a wonderful break from well-known machines that box the modeler in tightly in their decisions at the bench. For me, one of the toughest obstacles has often been deciding that I've located sufficient information to move on a project. It can really take the fun out of it I obsess over the uncertainties so much that I can't even get started.

The graphic shapes and contrasts on this scheme are really striking, though, and whatever 'best guess colors' you decide to use ought to look great.

Thank you!  I'm one of those guys who likes to build a scheme that nobody else seems to be using.  Sometimes I've found a scheme for a model...  then gone to research, and images of it in completed model form pop up everywhere.  That's when I decide to look for another scheme.  Fortunately, there are plenty available for anyone who wants to look.

For instance, I bought the Albatros Trilogy set, and built the Wolff version with it's striking Bavarian colors.  But since then, I've given away all of the remaining Jasta 5 decals and will make my own version from other Jastas.  If nothing is interesting enough, I'll add my own fuselage art to a regular factory and Jasta finish.

I have obsessed, too.  It's hard not to at some point.

Gotta have fun!

There are only two states to be in:  Queensland and blotto.

Offline Vickers

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Re: Please help with this Fokker
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2020, 02:21:33 PM »
Agreed, Gaz.

I took the liberty of sampling small areas of the various features to see how they compare and contrast, against both white and black backgrounds. Certainly doesn't inform any particular color decisions, but simply indicates the lightness or darkness of certain areas compared to those features assumed to be either black or white. It looks to me like the Jasta 54 'Saxon' conclusion fits nicely within the parameters suggested by the samples. I also note that the thin borders on the edges of the personal motif don't appear to go over the top of the fuselage. Given the effects of light, shadow, and the behavior of those early film emulsions, one could advocate for darned near any combination of light and dark colors. Great subject choice!
« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 04:09:46 AM by Vickers »
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Offline GazzaS

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Re: Please help with this Fokker
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2020, 03:39:35 PM »
Agreed, Gaz.

I took the liberty of sampling small areas of the various features to see how they compare and contrast, against both white and black backgrounds. Certainly doesn't inform any particular color decisions, but simply indicates the lightness or darkness of certain areas compared to those features assumed to be either black or white. It looks to me like the Jasta 54 'Saxon' conclusion fits nicely within the parameters suggested by the samples. I also note that the thin border on the aft edge of the personal motif doesn't appear to go over the top of the fuselage. Given the effects of light, shadow, and the behavior of those early film emulsions, one could advocate for darned near any combination of light and dark colors. Great subject choice!

My biggest concern is yellow.  One of the colors of the bands is yellow.  But is this orthochromatic film?  Is the dark area yellow, or is it the light area.  I can't really decide.  Coin toss?
There are only two states to be in:  Queensland and blotto.