forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com
WW1 Aircraft Modeling => WW1 Aircraft Information/Questions => Topic started by: GazzaS on May 27, 2020, 07:37:32 PM
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HI everyone,
This is an expanded image of a small photo I found online last year. There isn't much that I know about Fokkers. I usually study Alb's and Pfalz's.
I have two Fokker D.VII Kits. The Goering F,and the D.VII (ALB). I don't know which kit closest fits this picture. And I'll need to get some Aviatik decals. But I don't know if I need 4-color or 5-color.
And the tail colors... White and black? Which Jasta?
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/6139/VpdJ6O.png)
Any help will be greatly appreciated!
Gaz
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I can't see anything!
::)
vB
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Fixed it.
The Tail art seems to match this Jasta 71 machine. Though I'm still unclear about the colors.
(https://previews.agefotostock.com/previewimage/medibigoff/4c353af1570ba720d59532454ed8a8f4/mev-11956766.webp)
But everywhere I look for Jasta colors, I find this about the Jasta: "Jasta 71 = white tailplane with 3 longitudinal stripes; red fin"
Edit: After more digging I find this profile for the Lude machine
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/flXf-vO-ziOlkkU7DA7VInhtG7r06kovvUup7dzDhH8sENsiWyP8TWiSLYvJx6rqFQnj6ne3Ws5P5NPe63HlBlVjLCSy2bIdt1jyvnkRQCY45W9ayM4Ml67PPZQ)
I like the red and white, but that's just preference.
But I'm still at a loss for the actual type of D.VII
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I feel like it may be late OAW built, same batch as the "Lude" aircraft pictured above
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If the engine cowls are painted green/mauve like "Lude" then OAW, the rudder cross is a late indicator. Jasta 71 seems reasonable. Image is not clear wnough to see any serial or Werke numbers.
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The horizontal stabilizer stripes look too light to be black or red. If this photo was taken with orthochromatic film, red appears almost as dark as black. Stripes could be blue or green.
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If the engine cowls are painted green/mauve like "Lude" then OAW, the rudder cross is a late indicator. Jasta 71 seems reasonable. Image is not clear wnough to see any serial or Werke numbers.
THank you. I believe that the werke numbers would be covered up by the fuselage band, which attracts me to this scheme.
The horizontal stabilizer stripes look too light to be black or red. If this photo was taken with orthochromatic film, red appears almost as dark as black. Stripes could be blue or green.
Thank you. I don't know of any Jastas that used blue or green longitudinal stripes, unfortunately.
I feel like it may be late OAW built, same batch as the "Lude" aircraft pictured above
Thank you. I have the same feeling. Hopefully my kit has the right louvres for the job.
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I asked well known Aviation Modeler and Historian Stephen Lawson if he had any info on this aircraft. This is his response. He also has contacted Greg van Wyngarden so more info May be coming. I hope this helps.
RAGIII
Greetings Richard, Its taken at the French turn in the Armee Gruppe Albrecht. Collection airfield, Saarbrücken Germany November -December 1918. The striped tail bird is probably from Jasta 54s (a Saxon unit). It appears to be an earlier OAW but someone attached a later OAW forward cowling side panel (?) Unusual indeed
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The Fokker in the background appears to be one of Raben's red nosed Jasta 18 birds and the dark stripes on the foreground Fokker appear to be the same tone as the Jasta 18 Fokker's nose. So my guess would be white edged red diamonds on red bands and a guess for the lighter coloured bands could possibly be blue? Maybe the pilot was from Schleswig-Holstein? Walter Ewers's Jasta 77 Pfalz D.IIIa 8143/17 wore these colours on the top wing which were inspired by the flag of Schleswig-Holstein, Ewers's birthplace (Actually the flag is horizontal Red, White and Blue, like and inverted Dutch flag. Just a guess but I don't think a German Jadgflieger would be popular painting red, white and blue bands on his aircraft! ;)). Just a thought.
Dave Rickard
Rockhampton QLD
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I asked well known Aviation Modeler and Historian Stephen Lawson if he had any info on this aircraft. This is his response. He also has contacted Greg van Wyngarden so more info May be coming. I hope this helps.
RAGIII
Greetings Richard, Its taken at the French turn in the Armee Gruppe Albrecht. Collection airfield, Saarbrücken Germany November -December 1918. The striped tail bird is probably from Jasta 54s (a Saxon unit). It appears to be an earlier OAW but someone attached a later OAW forward cowling side panel (?) Unusual indeed
Richard,
Thank you for that. That's great news! As much as I was liking a red and white tail, I feel a bit better with more knowledge behind it. Adding an OAW panel is really going to add some visual interest to this model. And googling Jasta 54 got me this skin:
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/Cladean/RoFFokkerDVIIMixFixedwingstep.jpg)
The Fokker in the background appears to be one of Raben's red nosed Jasta 18 birds and the dark stripes on the foreground Fokker appear to be the same tone as the Jasta 18 Fokker's nose. So my guess would be white edged red diamonds on red bands and a guess for the lighter coloured bands could possibly be blue? Maybe the pilot was from Schleswig-Holstein? Walter Ewers's Jasta 77 Pfalz D.IIIa 8143/17 wore these colours on the top wing which were inspired by the flag of Schleswig-Holstein, Ewers's birthplace (Actually the flag is horizontal Red, White and Blue, like and inverted Dutch flag. Just a guess but I don't think a German Jadgflieger would be popular painting red, white and blue bands on his aircraft! ;)). Just a thought.
Dave Rickard
Rockhampton QLD
Dave,
Thank you for your input. I actually spent quite a lot of time looking up potential Wappen for the fuselage band design. The colors are a bit different, and I'll save the information for the reveal. One critical connection is the tail markings. I can believe Green and white much more than a three colored design. Hopefully I won't stuff it up. Anyway....no matter what I do, there'll always be potential for it to be wrong and forever lost to the doubts of history.
Gaz Bethania QLD
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I asked well known Aviation Modeler and Historian Stephen Lawson if he had any info on this aircraft. This is his response. He also has contacted Greg van Wyngarden so more info May be coming. I hope this helps.
RAGIII
Greetings Richard, Its taken at the French turn in the Armee Gruppe Albrecht. Collection airfield, Saarbrücken Germany November -December 1918. The striped tail bird is probably from Jasta 54s (a Saxon unit). It appears to be an earlier OAW but someone attached a later OAW forward cowling side panel (?) Unusual indeed
Richard,
Thank you for that. That's great news! As much as I was liking a red and white tail, I feel a bit better with more knowledge behind it. Adding an OAW panel is really going to add some visual interest to this model. And googling Jasta 54 got me this skin:
(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/Cladean/RoFFokkerDVIIMixFixedwingstep.jpg)
The Fokker in the background appears to be one of Raben's red nosed Jasta 18 birds and the dark stripes on the foreground Fokker appear to be the same tone as the Jasta 18 Fokker's nose. So my guess would be white edged red diamonds on red bands and a guess for the lighter coloured bands could possibly be blue? Maybe the pilot was from Schleswig-Holstein? Walter Ewers's Jasta 77 Pfalz D.IIIa 8143/17 wore these colours on the top wing which were inspired by the flag of Schleswig-Holstein, Ewers's birthplace (Actually the flag is horizontal Red, White and Blue, like and inverted Dutch flag. Just a guess but I don't think a German Jadgflieger would be popular painting red, white and blue bands on his aircraft! ;)). Just a thought.
Dave Rickard
Rockhampton QLD
Dave,
Thank you for your input. I actually spent quite a lot of time looking up potential Wappen for the fuselage band design. The colors are a bit different, and I'll save the information for the reveal. One critical connection is the tail markings. I can believe Green and white much more than a three colored design. Hopefully I won't stuff it up. Anyway....no matter what I do, there'll always be potential for it to be wrong and forever lost to the doubts of history.
Gaz Bethania QLD
Very true Gaz, besides no one can tell you your wrong, the interpretation is all in the eye of the beholder, that's all part of the fun! I agree with the Jasta 54 Green and white tail feathers though. Whatever way you go it sure has the potential to be one colourful looking bird that's for sure, I'm looking forward to what you come up with. Good luck
Dave Rickard
Rockhampton QLD
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This one is an interesting find, Gaz. It appears to be a good candidate for some informed artistic license, which can be a wonderful break from well-known machines that box the modeler in tightly in their decisions at the bench. For me, one of the toughest obstacles has often been deciding that I've located sufficient information to move on a project. It can really take the fun out of it I obsess over the uncertainties so much that I can't even get started.
The graphic shapes and contrasts on this scheme are really striking, though, and whatever 'best guess colors' you decide to use ought to look great.
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This one is an interesting find, Gaz. It appears to be a good candidate for some informed artistic license, which can be a wonderful break from well-known machines that box the modeler in tightly in their decisions at the bench. For me, one of the toughest obstacles has often been deciding that I've located sufficient information to move on a project. It can really take the fun out of it I obsess over the uncertainties so much that I can't even get started.
The graphic shapes and contrasts on this scheme are really striking, though, and whatever 'best guess colors' you decide to use ought to look great.
Thank you! I'm one of those guys who likes to build a scheme that nobody else seems to be using. Sometimes I've found a scheme for a model... then gone to research, and images of it in completed model form pop up everywhere. That's when I decide to look for another scheme. Fortunately, there are plenty available for anyone who wants to look.
For instance, I bought the Albatros Trilogy set, and built the Wolff version with it's striking Bavarian colors. But since then, I've given away all of the remaining Jasta 5 decals and will make my own version from other Jastas. If nothing is interesting enough, I'll add my own fuselage art to a regular factory and Jasta finish.
I have obsessed, too. It's hard not to at some point.
Gotta have fun!
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Agreed, Gaz.
I took the liberty of sampling small areas of the various features to see how they compare and contrast, against both white and black backgrounds. Certainly doesn't inform any particular color decisions, but simply indicates the lightness or darkness of certain areas compared to those features assumed to be either black or white. It looks to me like the Jasta 54 'Saxon' conclusion fits nicely within the parameters suggested by the samples. I also note that the thin borders on the edges of the personal motif don't appear to go over the top of the fuselage. Given the effects of light, shadow, and the behavior of those early film emulsions, one could advocate for darned near any combination of light and dark colors. Great subject choice!
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Agreed, Gaz.
I took the liberty of sampling small areas of the various features to see how they compare and contrast, against both white and black backgrounds. Certainly doesn't inform any particular color decisions, but simply indicates the lightness or darkness of certain areas compared to those features assumed to be either black or white. It looks to me like the Jasta 54 'Saxon' conclusion fits nicely within the parameters suggested by the samples. I also note that the thin border on the aft edge of the personal motif doesn't appear to go over the top of the fuselage. Given the effects of light, shadow, and the behavior of those early film emulsions, one could advocate for darned near any combination of light and dark colors. Great subject choice!
My biggest concern is yellow. One of the colors of the bands is yellow. But is this orthochromatic film? Is the dark area yellow, or is it the light area. I can't really decide. Coin toss?
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The Electorate of Saxony colors were yellow and black. The colors of the Kingdom of Saxony were green and white. Saxon army regiments flag was composed of red, white, and black triangles grouped into a square (same colors as Imperial German flag).
So here is my best guess as I think panchromatic film was used for this photo as the red forward fuselage of the Jasta 18 Fokker in the background did not photograph as extremely dark. Green and white striped horizontal stabilizer. Yellow (photographed as grey) and black fuselage stripes. Black diamonds with thin white edging. The outer thin fuselage stripes are not as dark as the cross marking so could be red. White vertical stabilizer and rudder.
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If indeed the D.VII in the background is one of the "ravens", then further comparison suggests that diamonds could've been red edged in white over the conjectural black & yellow stripes of the Electorate of Saxony. Although red tends to be the darkest and most intense of the warm colors, the diamonds could easily have been any cool color or Earth tone of similar value and intensity.
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It is all conjectural but red diamonds would look better than black diamonds on a model. We will never know all the colors of this personal marking unless a written report or artist's painting is discovered.
A further thought. Diamonds on playing cards are red. There are groups of three diamonds. Does the three of diamonds (playing card) or just three diamonds have any significance in the German military or culture?
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My biggest concern is yellow. One of the colors of the bands is yellow. But is this orthochromatic film? Is the dark area yellow, or is it the light area. I can't really decide. Coin toss?[/quote]
Assuming that the thin edge trim boxing in the motif on the fuselage side is black, then if black and yellow then I think the lighter bands must be the yellow bits.
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[/quote]My biggest concern is yellow. One of the colors of the bands is yellow. But is this orthochromatic film? Is the dark area yellow, or is it the light area. I can't really decide. Coin toss?[/quote]
Assuming that the thin edge trim boxing in the motif on the fuselage side is black, then if black and yellow then I think the lighter bands must be the yellow bits.
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The Electorate of Saxony colors were yellow and black. The colors of the Kingdom of Saxony were green and white. Saxon army regiments flag was composed of red, white, and black triangles grouped into a square (same colors as Imperial German flag).
So here is my best guess as I think panchromatic film was used for this photo as the red forward fuselage of the Jasta 18 Fokker in the background did not photograph as extremely dark. Green and white striped horizontal stabilizer. Yellow (photographed as grey) and black fuselage stripes. Black diamonds with thin white edging. The outer thin fuselage stripes are not as dark as the cross marking so could be red. White vertical stabilizer and rudder.
That's some interesting insight. However, black triangles are different from black squares. And there is three of them on each face. So, I think this is from the Wappen of a small principality or Burg and not necessarily of Saxon origin. Prussian Jastas are known to have Bavarian pilots and vice versa.
I've done a bit of research, about as much as I can do without being able to speak and read German without a lot of guesswork, and my search has led me to a number of municipalities. Most are in the Westerwald, and one is in Saxony. However, the Saxon choice is the least colorful, having only two colors while some of the others have three.
Who knows... before I get the thing built some more new info may pop up.
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The Electorate of Saxony coat of arms is a shield with crossed red swords on a black and white background. The right side of the shield is a green rue ( something like stylized leaves) on a black and yellow striped background. Source is Wikipedia.
So possibly, the three squares or diamonds could be red or a shade of green darker than the tail stripes.
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The Electorate of Saxony coat of arms is a shield with crossed red swords on a black and white background. The right side of the shield is a green rue ( something like stylized leaves) on a black and yellow striped background. Source is Wikipedia.
So possibly, the three squares or diamonds could be red or a shade of green darker than the tail stripes.
The three diamonds have to mean something to the pilot. And unfortunately we'll never really know what they meant to him. One difficulty is that a lot of heraldry was awarded to municipalities in the 1990's. So, they're not very useful.
Here is the story the plane will tell so far: D.VII (ALB) with one OAW lozenge-painted cowling piece. 4-color lozenge. Jasta 54 Green and white tail. I have found the three diamond pattern in the Westerwald or Thuringia. Both places are relatively close to Saxony, though that doesn't have to mean anything. If I go with Westerwald, the diamonds will be a different color than the dark stripes. If I go Thuringia, then the Diamonds and stripes will be the same color which might be the reason that the diamonds are outlined in white on the aircraft.
How's that sound?
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What are the colors of the squares for Westerwald and Thuringia?
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Not to throw a wrench in the speculations, gentlemen, but here's another comparison. One thing to consider is that the plane's shadow appear to be nearly directly beneath it, but is diffuse without any real darkness or sharp edges. This suggests to my eye that the photo was taken on an overcast or mostly cloudy day with the sun fairly high in the sky. So, another question to ponder is whether the ambient lighting is revealing truth or playing tricks? Comparing the darker color on the upper fuselage deck with the stripes on the tail, which are cast in similar ambient lighting as opposed to the vertical fuselage sides. The darker grey tones in those two areas differ so very slightly that the contrasts are nearly indistinguishable against either a white or black background.
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Not to throw a wrench in the speculations, gentlemen, but here's another comparison. One thing to consider is that the plane's shadow appear to be nearly directly beneath it, but is diffuse without any real darkness or sharp edges. This suggests to my eye that the photo was taken on an overcast or mostly cloudy day with the sun fairly high in the sky. So, another question to ponder is whether the ambient lighting is revealing truth or playing tricks? Comparing the darker color on the upper fuselage deck with the stripes on the tail, which are cast in similar ambient lighting as opposed to the vertical fuselage sides. The darker grey tones in those two areas differ so very slightly that the contrasts are nearly indistinguishable against either a white or black background.
This may play into my hands, maybe not. The jury is still out. I'm trying not to give in to the "I-want-to-make-it-pretty" impulse.
What are the colors of the squares for Westerwald and Thuringia?
Black or green, respectively.
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You might not want to make it pretty Gaz, but it sure will be! lolol. Regards, Pete in RI.
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You might not want to make it pretty Gaz, but it sure will be! lolol. Regards, Pete in RI.
Too bad it doesn't seem to have the pink or blue rib tapes. I really like that look.
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So how many of you vote for green and white tail stripes? How many approve of yellow fuselage section with black bands and black squares edged in white?
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I think that the Jasta 54 tail stripes & black and yellow fuselage motif fall well within the greyscale contrasts. However, any dark cool color or even a vivid red or dark earth tone could be on the darker stripes on the fuselage. As for the diamonds... it appears to be anyone's guess, but the outline is a pretty good match for the white borders on the fuselage insignia. If it were up to me, I'd paint the tail in green and white and the fuselage markings in dark blue (or black) and yellow with red diamonds. Just because I think it would look awesome.
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So how many of you vote for green and white tail stripes? How many approve of yellow fuselage section with black bands and black squares edged in white?
Hahaha.... this isn't up for a vote. I'm going with one of my two historical choices and it looks more like Thuringia every time I look at the photo.
I think that the Jasta 54 tail stripes & black and yellow fuselage motif fall well within the greyscale contrasts. However, any dark cool color or even a vivid red or dark earth tone could be on the darker stripes on the fuselage. As for the diamonds... it appears to be anyone's guess, but the outline is a pretty good match for the white borders on the fuselage insignia. If it were up to me, I'd paint the tail in green and white and the fuselage markings in dark blue (or black) and yellow with red diamonds. Just because I think it would look awesome.
I spent like four hours yesterday looking at German Heraldry, and or reading about it if I could find helpful links to real peoples names...there weren't many of those.
My original intention, made last year was from the town of Burbach. See the crest below:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/ff/DEU_Burbach_%28Siegerland%29_COA.svg)
However, the blue is very light. Not a Prussian or French blue, so it would be too light for the dark stripes, but too dark for the light stripes.
I had also been leaning toward Lengefeld (Anrode) Crest below:
(https://www.heraldry-wiki.com/heraldrywiki/images/1/16/Lengefel.jpg)
But have since discovered that this wappen was granted in 1994 when the locality was created and named after a cloister in the area.
And then there are a lot of others.... White diamonds. Red Diamonds. Blue Diamonds.
But neither white nor medium blues work. So... In frustration I lean a lot closer to either black diamonds with red and yellow stripes. Or Red Diamonds and red and yellow stripes.
So, that;s where my head is now.
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Ding Ding Ding... We have a winner. Or at least we have something acceptable to me that will make all of these hours of research worthwhile.
The Arms of Leisnig:
(https://www.leisnig.de/leisnigdok/pic/10/WappenLeisnigNEU%20336x374.jpg)
The colors of the arms are black, gold, and red.
So, I'm looking at Black diamonds outlined in white with black and yellow stripes.
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So, three questions down. Here is the fourth and hopefully final:
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/5281/eaxNCW.png)
What is this light and dark blob? Blown up, it looks almost three dimensional. It looks kind of low to be a flare port. A burn mark?
Anybody have an idea?
Gaz
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Yep, I saw that too and having no idea whether it was a stain or an artifact in the film I decided not to comment on it. I doubt whether it was some sort of simple personal marking because it's an awkward location and partially obscures the weight table stencil. It could be a case where something nasty got splattered onto the aircraft and someone made it even worse by trying to wipe it off.
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Yep, I saw that too and having no idea whether it was a stain or an artifact in the film I decided not to comment on it. I doubt whether it was some sort of simple personal marking because it's an awkward location and partially obscures the weight table stencil. It could be a case where something nasty got splattered onto the aircraft and someone made it even worse by trying to wipe it off.
I hadn't considered an artifact in the film... I'll go with that! Thank you!
Gaz
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One more question has just been raised.
As has been noted by an expert, the port side cowl pieces have been replaced with OAW cowl pieces.
There are various possible reasons. 1. Battle damage? 2. Replacement by newer cowls which have better louvres for cooling? 3. Or was the plane 'completed' with parts from another plane so that it could be delivered to the Allies as per the Armistice turns.
If I choose option number 1, I only replace the port side pieces.
Option two makes some sense after all that I have read in the past due to cooling problems.
Number 3 is an easy possibility.
Fortunately I have enough parts from the Goering kit to make the pieces look like OAW parts.
Does anyone have any other opinions?