Author Topic: A few questions about McCuddens SE5a B4863 (Read 5703 times)

RAGIII · « **on:** January 08, 2015, 11:35:08 AM »

For better or worse I have decided to do the Encore/Roden 1/32nd McCudden Se5a in the scheme for B4863. Now one would think this is a No Brainer as there are photos readily available. The questions come in for the following reasons,
1. There are 2 photos of the right side that clearly show the serial number and style of "G" and roundel. There is a rear view Identified in most publications as being 4863 that shows the style of "G" and roundel on the left side. (More on this photo a little later). There is a photo of the left side of an SE that has a TOTALLY different style of "G" and a different location and proportion to the roundel than the right side of 4863. ( Encore has used this to produce their decals). I have noticed that Rowan and many Artists have used the same style of "G" and roundel location and proportions for the left and right sides. So here we go, looking for a consensus. I searched the web hoping I would readily find the photos to be shared here... NO Joy. So I have looked at my books and will mention page numbers and photo numbers where available. I will start by posting the portion of Glenn Merrils Americal Gryphon booklet dealing with this aircraft:

Dr. Merrlil mentions the photos and differences and indicates that the photo of the Left side with the ODD G and Roundel "Could" be a different aircraft. so here is a list of the photos and some comments:
A Full right hand View of 4863 clearly showing the serial number, roundel, and "G":
SE5/SE5a Squadrons, Albatros Pub. Pg. 16 #56/5
High in the Empty Blue, Alex Revelle. Pg176
James McCudden VC Aces and Aeroplanes, Albatros Pub/Alex Revelle Page 10.
This photo gives us a great view of the right side and clearly shows all one needs to model the aircraft( On the right side)

A Partial and closer right Hand view with Rhys Davids in the Photo:
High in the Empty Blue Page 178
James McCudden VC page 28

Shows the same as above but CLEARLY shows the Bulged cockpit.

Left side Partial(No serial visible):
Aces and Aeroplanes Vol 3 James McCudden VC:
Shows a left side photo. Different Style "G" and roundel proportions and Location VS the right hand views of 4863. Bulge is clearly shown.

Rear View: This is identified in all publications in my library save one as 4863:
SE5/SE5a Aces Albatros Pub: Page 16 # 56/6
High in the Empty Blue Page 195
Aces and Aeroplanes, McCudden VC, Page 10.
Osprey SE5/5a aces page 16.

This shot is from the rear left and shows a "G" and roundel in the same style and location/proportions as the right hand views of 4863. Unfortunantly no serial visible. In addition Osprey says it is 4891.

So what do you all think,
Different on the left and right, same, or both

I am also going to attach a brief discussion from another thread about my next dual build where I cut off the discussion until now!

http://forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com/index.php?topic=4302.0
RAGIII

coyotemagic · « **Reply #1 on:** January 09, 2015, 02:47:51 AM »

I know this ain't much help, amigo, but this ship went through so many documented transformations, you could do almost anything and be right for some point in time. I plan on doing this same bus in 1/48 scale, so I will be following this thread closely. Good luck in you quest.
Cheers,
Bud

petrov27 · « **Reply #2 on:** January 09, 2015, 05:44:56 AM »

-----There is a photo of the left side of an SE that has a TOTALLY different style of "G" and a different location and proportion to the roundel than the right side of 4863.

Could that be the later 4891 prior to the G being changed to a 6?

This one is in my "want to build" list also. I took some notes from posts on the Aerodrome some time back - not sure they are much help but:

1. S.E.5a B'4863. RAF built. roundels inboard of the ailerons without white
1" boarders. Lower wing roundel also inboard of the ailerons, no white 1" boarder or white middle ring, re and blue only on clear doped linen.
Fuselage roundel aft of the cockpit. Steel landing gear. short exhaust pipe. with the head rest. Geared Hisso engine with four bladed prop and fairngs front and rear of the cam shaft covers. Round top one piece radiator. White 18" band around fuselage. located fron the leading edge of the lower fin aft. Cockpit sides raised and widened, I believe with plywood and reinforced internally with wood pieces.
Normal elevators.
B Flight I.D. marking white capital G both sides of the fuselage, aft of the roundel. White capital G almost full chord overlapping the center-section and right upper wing panel. Same size black capital G on right lower wing outboard of the roundel. Brown colored P.C.10.

2. S.E.5a B'4891. RAF built.
-narrow chord elevators
-stronger wood landing gear.
-Shortened exhaust common to No.56 Squadron
-no headrest.
-Geared Hisso, withfairing fore and aft the cam covers.
-Single piece round top radiator.
-Four bladed prop with a red LVG C.V spinner.
-Markings - B Flight, changed letter to numerals, 1 to 6. Fuselage white band the same. McCudden use number 6 as his I.D.marking, all location the same as S.E.5a B'4863, except with white number 6 replacing the letter G on the fuselage and upper wing and a black 6 on the right lower wing.
-On the upper wing the white capital G was over painted with awhite 6 and fixed theexposed parts of the white G with brown P.C.10, however the underside of the lower wings were only clear doped. Where parts of the black G where exposed, they were painted overpainted with white paint.
-S.E.5a B'4891 did have vertical radiator shutters

lcarroll · « **Reply #3 on:** January 09, 2015, 08:02:29 AM »

Petrov,
I wish I'd had access to your notes several years back when I built my 4891. Your notes pretty well match mine that came at the cost of literally days of reading and comparing source material. I found numerous mis-captioned photos and inaccurate Profiles in the commonly available publications I had.
I'd offer a few additions for consideration:
-4863's blue "Dumb Bell" fuselage marking was replaced by the wide white band by 56 Sqn. on 25 Sept. 1916, two days after the epic Werner Voss Fight.
-Various coloured profiles of both 4891 and 4863 show yellow tips on the props; I haven't seen any photos to support this; and
-The final fuselage marking change was from letters to numbers ("G" to "6" for 4891) on 27 Dec 1917.
Hope this helps a bit Rick.
Cheers,
Lance

petrov27 · « **Reply #4 on:** January 09, 2015, 08:22:35 AM »

How about the bulged/raised cockpit sides? Did both a/c have that feature? From my notes I show the early did and I am fairly positive photos back that up, but I was thinking the later did not?

RAGIII · « **Reply #5 on:** January 09, 2015, 01:53:38 PM »

Here are my thoughts:
1. 4863 certainly had the Bulged cockpit sides ( Who knows when they were installed).
2. The rear view showing the similar "G", roundel position, and roundel proportions to the right side of the known photos of 4863, is 4863 not 4891 as identified in the Osprey book
3. I speculate that the left side view in the Aces and Aeroplanes book is 4891 before the head rest was removed which would confirm a Bulged cockpit on this one also.( The funny thing is in the book this one is identified as 4861! So a Typo is suspected but which way? 4863 or 4891. The style of "G" would lend itself more to the ultimate style of "6" that appeared later.! I do not think it is 4863 with odd markings on either side.
4. About the Elevators: I am not certain that 4863 had the "Standard" version. Even in the photos that show the serial number it looks (to me), that the Elevators do not go far enough back on the rudder to be the wide cord style? Could be my eyesight

SOOOO, If my thoughts are correct I will need to find a set of Pheon decals to do 4863! (Now SOLD OUT). Encore gives the different roundel and G as the only options for 4863.
I would certainly like to hear Rowans thoughts on this one, as well as Ray Rimmels'!

As for the later 4891 I have NO PHOTOS that show roundels, "G", "6", or any clear indication of the bulge. In some photos it looks like there is a bulge in others I think it could be lighting, worn paint, etc. If the odd left hand view is 4891 then the bulge is a done deal.
High in the Empty blue does include an item that gives a little speculation for 4891. The Silver Model presented to McCudden by the Squadron upon his Posting to HE. Looks as though the roundel on the upper wing was over the aileron. Unusual for a RAF built bird.
Further discussion is warranted and will certainly be appreciated!
RAGIII

PS: One should not go by notes without double checking the photos! Looked at the Left view again and noticed it appears to have the early landing gear so it is not 4891! So the possibility exists that ir is 4863 with a Marking change or there is a 3rd SE in the picture, as Dr. Merril suggests/Implies could be a possibility?

Petrov, Just curious how you came up with no white in the underwing roundels? My photos don't show the underside.

RAGIII · « **Reply #6 on:** February 02, 2015, 12:53:47 PM »

So I went to the Drome and found no better info. I sure wish Rowan would chime in. I Missed Purchasing his Excellent SE5a Decals so have no access to his comments on 4863. I really think that the likely scheme of having the same G on the fuselage as well as the Roundels being the same size and proportion is more than possible...at least at one point.....

RAGIII

petrov27 · « **Reply #7 on:** February 02, 2015, 01:05:01 PM »

Quote from: RAGIII on January 09, 2015, 01:53:38 PM

Petrov, Just curious how you came up with no white in the underwing roundels? My photos don't show the underside.

I copied and pasted that from a post from the Aerodrome (DSA maybe) - I have not seen a photo so no idea where they got that. Was it possibly a practice on early SE5a to just leave the "white" of the underwing roundel as the CDL?

Dal Gavan · « **Reply #8 on:** February 04, 2015, 07:20:31 AM »

G'day, Rags.

The notes in Rowan's sheet basically give a history and also say "Four-bladed prop, steel tube undercarriage, shortened exhaust pipes." The notes for B4891 describe the built-up cockpit, narrow-chord ailerons, etc.

The illustrations, which are available on Rowan's site at http://www.pheondecals.com/32004-se5a-hispano-aces.html , show different styles of "G".

Hope this helps.

Dal.

RAGIII · « **Reply #9 on:** February 05, 2015, 08:28:54 AM »

Quote from: Dal Gavan on February 04, 2015, 07:20:31 AM

G'day, Rags.

The notes in Rowan's sheet basically give a history and also say "Four-bladed prop, steel tube undercarriage, shortened exhaust pipes." The notes for B4891 describe the built-up cockpit, narrow-chord ailerons, etc.

The illustrations, which are available on Rowan's site at http://www.pheondecals.com/32004-se5a-hispano-aces.html , show different styles of "G".

Hope this helps.

Dal.

Thanks Dal. I was hoping perhaps Rowan mentioned why he chose the SAME STYLE G and Roundel on both sides of 4863. That being said it seems he doesn't so I am on my own here. I think I like Rowans take on the scheme. I have, unfortunately, waited until Rowans sheet has sold out so I will need to source the McCudden Markings from the Buy/Sell, and Swap section.
RAGIII

Dal Gavan · « **Reply #10 on:** February 05, 2015, 02:02:53 PM »

I just sent the 1/32 McCudden markings from my sheet to another forum member, or you could have had them, mate. I'm sure someone here will be able to help you out.

Cheers.

Dal.

PS While things can go pear-shaped when on operations, isn't it likely that the same style of "G" would have been used on both sides? The position may have varied slightly, but unless they used a patch off another aircraft I'd expect the same airframe fitter do the job and keep them quite similar. I could also be totally wrong. Again.

RAGIII · « **Reply #11 on:** February 06, 2015, 09:18:18 AM »

Quote from: Dal Gavan on February 05, 2015, 02:02:53 PM

I just sent the 1/32 McCudden markings from my sheet to another forum member, or you could have had them, mate. I'm sure someone here will be able to help you out.

Cheers.

Dal.

PS While things can go pear-shaped when on operations, isn't it likely that the same style of "G" would have been used on both sides? The position may have varied slightly, but unless they used a patch off another aircraft I'd expect the same airframe fitter do the job and keep them quite similar. I could also be totally wrong. Again.

Thanks Dal, and as you said, another Forumite has come to my rescue :-) I agree re the Style of "G" the issue is of course, that ODD Photo of an early SE5a with bulge and the odd "G" as addressed in Dr. Merrils comments in my first post. A quick repaint after replacing the fabric involving the G and roundel, or a 3rd SE coded "G"? As I said, I am going with the thought that the rear view indeed shows 4863 and a similar "G" and roundel to the certain right side photos. JMHO and Encore and some profile drawings of 4863 could have it right with the ODD set up.
RAGIII
Now to decide if I use the 18 inch white band, No Squadron Markings at all, or Blue Dumbell Markings

RAGIII

Dal Gavan · « **Reply #12 on:** February 06, 2015, 10:05:24 AM »

Quote

Now to decide if I use the 18 inch white band, No Squadron Markings at all, or Blue Dumbell Markings

Do you have a three-sided coin, mate?

jknaus · « **Reply #13 on:** February 28, 2015, 03:01:45 AM »

I'll keep an eye on this thread as I have a WNW SE 5a and have True Details conversion coming. Could you tell me what the title of this ref is "Glenn Merrils Americal Gryphon booklet" and maybe where to find it? Thanks.
James

macsporran · « **Reply #14 on:** February 28, 2015, 03:58:27 AM »

From memory I recall that McCudden, in his book "Five Years in the RFC", tells us that he often spent time modifying his aircraft - I remember a passage about him grinding down piston valves to get enough compression to get himself high enough to take out an LVG that crossed the lines daily with impunity. Can't remember if that's the one whose spinner he then added to his SE.
Point is, I doubt his plane looked the same from one day to the next. When I do my Encore SE, I'll do it however takes my fancy and challenge anybody to tell me it's wrong!!!
My tuppence for what its worth.
Sandy