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WW1 Aircraft Modeling => Under Construction => Scratch builds => Topic started by: Old Man on May 31, 2014, 02:33:49 PM

Title: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: Old Man on May 31, 2014, 02:33:49 PM
Have been underway with this for a few weeks, for the WWI contest over at Swanny's Forums, and have enough in hand now to present here.

First, this is the subject of the model:

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/A04135_short-plane_1qaa1_zps7785bd46.jpg)

It was the first of the type delivered, and was delivered as a float-plane. Early in 1915, it was shipped out to Zanzibar, along with two fellows, as part of the effort to deal with the S.M.S. Konigsberg. From Zanzibar, the three machines were shipped up to Mesopotamia, where they arrived in September, to co-operate with Royal Navy gun-boats on the Tigris supporting Gen. Townsend's drive for Baghdad. Difficulties were encountered operating as float-planes off the Tigris, so 822, and at least one other of Shorts, had its floats replaced with an improvised land-plane arrangement. After some months of service, the machine was badly bent in February, 1916, just as the airlift into the siege of Kut was getting underway, and written off.

Here is the scratch-builder's 'kit'....

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5493_zps97e15c11.jpg)

References for this are rather thin on the ground, so there is an unavoidable element of conjecture in some portions of this project. I have come upon some useful photographs of the type here and there on the web, and I have an article in an old issue of Crass and Cockade Journal which has several photographs of this particular machine in Mesopotamia.

Here is the first step in the build: blanks for the wings, made out of 2mm sheet and already sanded to airfoil section, and bottom and sides for the fuselage rear of the fire-wall (all panels were removed from the nose on operations in Mesopotamia to assist cooling), the sides made from 0.75mm sheet, and the bottom from 1.0mm sheet.

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5476_zps5c9bc24e.jpg)

Here are the wings put into their proper shapes:

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5495_zps806299ae.jpg)

I have left off making the ailerons, as I may pose them hanging, which they did when the machine was at rest on the ground. They are big items, with inverse taper.

Here are a couple of shots of the fuselage pieces assembled, with basic side-wall detail and floor added:

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5497_zpsc1d3739f.jpg)

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5499_zpsd311e96d.jpg)

At this point, I decided to change things a bit. However convenient for a modeler, the raised wood floor is likely not accurate (all of this is conjectural and speculative), and I pulled it out. I then went to a bare skeleton for the floor (no picture), and finally decided on a thin, metal floor, riding right above the fuselage bottom's structural members (as seems to be the case with the Short 184).

Here is the fuselage interior more or less completed:

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5504_zps3de4ce98.jpg)

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5507_zps680b8814.jpg)

Shorts used a distinctive five-spoked Depperdussin wheel stick control, which has been scratch-built. Instruments and such are a simplified version of the arrangements for a Short 184 (it was being built at about the same time, so I think a 'family resemblance' not unreasonable). Bezels are 34 gauge brass beading wire wrapped around styrene rod, to make a short coil, cut into links with a razor knife, and lightly flattened in a pliers. Instrument faces are disc shaved off styrene rod, pressing into the bazals after these are glued to the panel. Seats are left-overs from various Eduard kits, trimmed down a bit (they probably should have some holes, but I figured I could skip that). The observer's seat is perched on a fuel tank: there was a gravity tank at the front of his cockpit, but it does not seem large enough to have been the only fuel store, and the observer's cockpit is about the only place a main tank could be put in this).

Here is the fuselage closed up:

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5554_zps862ea534.jpg)

Forward decking is a piece of 0.015" sheet, bent into a curve and glued down, with cockpit openings cut in after attachment.

The turtleback is put on in two pieces: first, a piece of 1mm sheet, shaped to plan and sanded down in a taper to the rear, then a piece of 3mm sheet. The whole is sanded to plan, then to profile, and finally to section.

Nose is left unfinished; there will be adjustments when the engine assembly is dealt with, but that is still a ways off.

Here are a couple of looks into the cockpit....

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5559_zps31750ea4.jpg)

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5561_zps114e31b5.jpg)

Had a bit of a set-back, but it has not put me seriously behind schedule. In my first run at the forward decking, the instrument panel dislodged, which I did not notice till I had the thing all shaped and trimmed. Only way to fix it was to strip off the decking, and by the time this was done, a fair amount of reconstruction had to be done in the pilot's office, and with the formers. All is secure now.

I am using a new method for indicating rib tapes on this build, rather than the striping tape applique method I have been employing.

First, the ribs are lined in with pencil. Then, they are scribed in with a needle in a pin-vise, using a flexible piece of half millimeter sheet for a straight-edge guide. Then the area between the tapes is made to sag, using first a heavy grit 'swizzle stick' sanding stick, and then by scraping with the curved edge of a #10 blade, and final touches with a folded bit of medium grit sand-paper. I went fairly deep doing this, as this machine saw long service in tropic and desert conditions with sketchy maintenance, and its fabric must have been in pretty poor shape by the latter stages of its career. Just 'breaking the plane' a bit with the sanding stick and smoothing down the result would suffice for a newer machine. After this, the scribed lines are gone over again.

Here is the upper surface of the lower wing, half-way through the process:

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5503_zps02b3679c.jpg)

Here is the upper surface of the upper wing, painted and decalled:

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5500_zps1eea0b2f.jpg)

Basic color is PollyScale 'Old Concrete', hit after application with dark brown wash, and lightened base color painted over the tapes. This machine was marked with the old 'red ring' marking of the R.N.A.S. (it was shipped out from England probably in March of 1915). I have never seen a picture from the early days of an English machine serving in the Middle East where the white paint of markings was not in very bad condition, and I have roughed up the decals accordingly. They began as Italian markings for a SPAD XIII, and after application I hit them very hard with a polishing pad, and chipped away some bits, too, with the point of a knife. Remaining areas were then painted over with a slightly greyed white. I left the ribs themselves white, as I think the flaking would be concentrated where the fabric flexed in flight. I added various shades of darker red to the ring to allow for the deterioration of the pigment under sun. Aftre work on the decals was done, the whole thing got another dark brown wash treatment.
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: Des on May 31, 2014, 02:45:31 PM
You are presenting your usual amazing work in 1:72 scale, incredible amount of modeling skill and your attention to detail all add up to what is going to be another spectacular build from you Old Man, extremely well done so far and I look forward to following your progress.

Des.

I forgot to mention, you have chosen a great subject.
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: Nigel Jackson on May 31, 2014, 03:51:01 PM
Wow, what a start you've made. I can't wat to see how things develop, Old Man.

Best wishes
Nigel
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: radio on May 31, 2014, 09:52:00 PM
You make a lovely build. I will watch them.
Martin
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: IanB on May 31, 2014, 11:53:33 PM
Very impressive work once again OM.
 I have the Karaya kit of the 827 and the Aeroclub 184 in my stash so if you want any referances etc for comparison let me know and I'll check the details for you.

Ian
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: Bluesfan on June 01, 2014, 01:17:45 AM
Inspiring work, great choice as Des says.
And thanks for another snippet of history about the Mesopotamia theatre. Seems to have been every bit as nasty as the Western Front.
A grandfather I never met spent most of WWI there, his regiment being largely wiped out.
Hard to imagine the difficulties of carrying out air operations in the region.

Mark
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: coyotemagic on June 01, 2014, 01:28:15 AM
Extraordinary work, as usual, OM!  The cockpit is gorgeous.  I'll be following this with interest.
Cheers,
Bud
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: lone modeller on June 01, 2014, 03:44:17 AM
A very interesting subject which I admit I have not seen in model form before. An interesting location too - the Middle East, eastern Mediterranean and African campaigns have sorely neglected by most modellers (including me), so it is good to see a subject from one of these areas.

Thanks too for the wonderful tips that you have included, especially the instrument bezels. How did you make the control wheel? Your techniques for the saggy fabric on the wings and the weathering were also most useful. In all a truly fantastic thread which I will be following avidly in future.
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: RAGIII on June 01, 2014, 11:28:00 AM
An Awesome beginning as always with your builds! You continue to amaze me!
RAGIII
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: stevehed on June 02, 2014, 09:09:54 AM
Excellent start Old Man on a unique subject.

Regards, Steve
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: Alexis on June 07, 2014, 08:29:19 AM
Following this one closely Oldman . What a fantastic subject and up to your usual standards  :) Cool !





Terri
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: Old Man on June 07, 2014, 11:37:29 PM
Thank you all very much! I appreciate the kind words and encouragement.
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: Old Man on June 07, 2014, 11:39:59 PM
Inspiring work, great choice as Des says.
And thanks for another snippet of history about the Mesopotamia theatre. Seems to have been every bit as nasty as the Western Front.
A grandfather I never met spent most of WWI there, his regiment being largely wiped out.
Hard to imagine the difficulties of carrying out air operations in the region.

Mark

It was an interesting theater, Sir. The Nixon-Townsend drive on Baghdad was one of the worst debacles in English military history. And of course, after the war was over, it remained a most active spot....
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: Old Man on June 07, 2014, 11:52:51 PM
A very interesting subject which I admit I have not seen in model form before. An interesting location too - the Middle East, eastern Mediterranean and African campaigns have sorely neglected by most modellers (including me), so it is good to see a subject from one of these areas.

Thanks too for the wonderful tips that you have included, especially the instrument bezels. How did you make the control wheel? Your techniques for the saggy fabric on the wings and the weathering were also most useful. In all a truly fantastic thread which I will be following avidly in future.

Glad you found something useful here, Sir. Your 're-purposings' are quite impressive.

The first step in doing the wheel was getting a circle. I make a hole in a piece of thin sheet by twirling a #11 blade (putting it in from both sides alternately to equalize the bit of taper) For things up to about a quarter inch this ensures a round hole without any adjustment. I then slip the hole onto something tapered (anything from the point of a pencil to a a toothpick, or the end of a brush, or a round needle-file). I then clip most of the sheet away with a wire-cutter, and sand the remainder down round with a sanding stick. The pressures of this will generally stretch the piece a bit, so start with a hole that is a little undersized. The end is a small plastic ring. (Of course, if you want to use metal, you can use the same coiling method as for bezels with thicker wire, and dowels or other available rods of appropriate size, or even buy jump-rings of appropriate size at a craft store.)

The spokes are simply measured lengths of 0.01" plastic rod (in this case a hair over 1mm in length). These are glued into the circle. There will be errors, but these will point you to the right dimensions and angles, and you will need a good tweezers. A small disc trimmed off a styrene rod will provide a 'hub' at the center (and cover a multitude of sins as well...).
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: Old Man on June 07, 2014, 11:53:29 PM
Following this one closely Oldman . What a fantastic subject and up to your usual standards  :) Cool !





Terri

Thank you, Ma'am.

Great to see you here!
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: Old Man on June 07, 2014, 11:56:47 PM
Further progress on this, my friends....

First, here are the wings, finished on both surfaces, with ailerons made but not yet painted or attached:

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5573_zpscecd1171.jpg)

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5574_zps41ab33a4.jpg)

Framework on undersurfaces is drawn in with ordinary pencil before painting, and painting is stopped while it still shows through. The roundel indication on the undersurface of the upper wing was put in by drawing with a red water color marker, which was then spread about with Future on a brush; this was done before framework was drawn in, but after rib indications were scored in.
 
Here are the blanks for the tail surfaces:

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5576_zpsa76aeecb.jpg)

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5579_zpsdb272d54.jpg)

These are made from 0.30" inch sheet (0.75mm). They are just tacked in place temporarily to check that everything actually fits together before I put in ribs and such.
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: lone modeller on June 08, 2014, 03:46:57 AM
Very interesting to see more of your techniques demonstrated here. I am learning more from each posting. Those wings are just mind-blowing.

Thank you for the very clear explanation of how to make a control wheel. Glad to read that others have modelling sins that need concealing too!
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: RAGIII on June 08, 2014, 12:45:02 PM
Absolutely AWESOME! The see through is perfect!
RAGIII
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: Alexis on June 08, 2014, 10:18:52 PM
Absolutely AWESOME! The see through is perfect!
RAGIII


I second that  :)




Terri
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: Des on June 08, 2014, 10:25:06 PM
You are doing a stunning job Old Man, the translucence of the wing is just amazing, very well done.

Des.
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: Old Man on June 14, 2014, 12:33:33 PM
Thank you, my friends.

Bit of further progress here: the wings are assembled to a unit and structural rigging put in....

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5582_zpsfdef4771.jpg)

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5580_zps6bb90b14.jpg)

Here is a look at the fuselage and wings in something close to their proper relation....

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5587_zpsfa711d05.jpg)

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5589_zps8141dd90.jpg)

Just about everything in front of the leading edge of the wings will be the Sunbeam motor on its bearers and frames.
 
When the time comes, the center of the lower wing will be cut away with a razor saw, and fitted to the fuselage sides. Then the cabane struts will be added. This machine was a 'folder', with the wings constructed to fold back alongside the fuselage, hence the interplane struts alongside the fuselage sides. The struts were of oval section steel tube, without further fairing, and I think it most likely the naval habit of slathering grey paint on anything metal at sea would apply.
 
Putting in detail on the tail pieces and fuselage is on the card for next week, but I will soon run out of excuses to put off doing the motor any longer....
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: RAGIII on June 14, 2014, 01:33:32 PM
Your construction processes are AWESOME! I can't even imagine building that wing cellule and rigging it before assembly like a normal kit. So well thought out and well done!
RAGIII
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: IanB on June 14, 2014, 01:36:25 PM
Excellent progress OM, I like your idea of building the wings as a separate unit.

Ian
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: Ernie on June 14, 2014, 07:27:18 PM
Amazing work, OM.  How you talented teeny scale builders do it, I
can't fathom, but man what you produce is gorgeous.  This one
is no exception.  Beautiful work, my friend.

Cheers,
Ernie :)
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: rhallinger on June 14, 2014, 07:54:40 PM
Your construction processes are AWESOME! I can't even imagine building that wing cellule and rigging it before assembly like a normal kit. So well thought out and well done!
RAGIII

+1.  Fascinating and lovely work OM!  ThAnks for sharing the details.

Cheers,

Bob
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: Nigel Jackson on June 14, 2014, 08:01:22 PM
Goodness me this is looking good OM. I can't wait to see your further updates.

Best wishes
Nigel
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: TomR1981 on June 14, 2014, 09:11:25 PM
This looks brilliant, I love the finish on the wings.

Tom
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: Des on June 14, 2014, 09:37:35 PM
A fascinating building technique you have adopted for the wings Old Man, and it has worked beautifully, well done and I am eager to see your next update.

Des.
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: coyotemagic on June 15, 2014, 02:01:56 AM
Truly stunning work, OM!  This is shaping up to be your best yet, and with all the marvelous gems that have come from your bench, that's saying a lot.
Cheers,
Bud
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: Alexis on June 15, 2014, 02:43:16 AM
Truly stunning work, OM!  This is shaping up to be your best yet, and with all the marvelous gems that have come from your bench, that's saying a lot.
Cheers,
Bud

Totally agree with this statement  :)



Terri
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: radio on June 15, 2014, 02:58:59 AM
You make an great work and paint until yet. Will wait for the next.
Martin
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: lone modeller on June 15, 2014, 04:47:44 AM
I agree with everything posted so far +10! Your method of building the wing cellule and then inserting the fuselage certainly takes some courage (not to mention skill) but I can understand why you have done it this way. Just cannot wait to see your engine - if the others are anything to go by this one will be another mini-masterpiece.
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: lcarroll on June 19, 2014, 12:09:21 AM
  It's just an absolute pleasure to sit back and follow this project OM. Lots to be learned and inspiration that just doesn't stop. What you did with that wing module was brilliant, and as for scale..............good grief, most of us would be terminally challenged to do this in 1:32!
Great Work!
Cheers,
Lance


Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: Old Man on June 23, 2014, 01:19:05 AM
Thank you, my friends.

I have found the 'assemble wings' technique useful in several situations, mostly involving pushers and machines where the fuselage rides mid-gap. It would be a bit trickier on a single-bay wing cellule, because once it is assembled, you pretty well have to rig it, or it is just too wobbly to work with, and rigging in advance to cabane ends would make putting the cabanes later a bit tricky, I expect. But rigging the outer bays of a multi-bay wing cellule will get it stiff enough. That interplanes went right to the fuselage in this was one of the reasons i decided to take that route here. It is easier to get at the attachment points without the fuselage in the way.

One other situation I have found this useful in, though a bit OT here, is doing ICM Polikarpove i-15bis biplanes; the joints at the ends of the I-struts on these are very difficult to get clean, and can be dressed much more readily with the wings assembled separately.
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: Old Man on June 23, 2014, 01:24:10 AM
Decided to pile straight on in to the nose; there is a schedule (it must be done by 28 July), and best to bite the bullet and get on the truly tricky bits....

The cowling panels were removed on this machine to facilitate cooling, so the forward bit of the machine is bare structural members and motor, along with various plumbing bits. The first step was preparing the forward end of the fuselage...

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5609_zpsb73cff9b.jpg)

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5611_zpsb227ab73.jpg)

After some consideration and a couple of false starts, I decided some major surgery was needed to get the transition to bare structures done right. I cut away everything in front of the passenger's cockpit opening down to the bottom of the fuselage, also removing temporarily the seat and tank it is perched on.

Reconstruction then began, the early stages of which are shown in the picture below. The bottom of the fuselage now serves as floor and the position of the tank and seat ensures that it will read correctly to the eye when you look into the cockpit opening (this is necessary because, as will be seen, the cockpit floor extends a bit into the bare structure area). The next step was to add the rest of the gravity tank, made of a piece of 3mm sheet, and then cheekpieces of 0.25mm sheet between this and the floor to fill in the fabric sides of the rest of the cockpit.

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5613_zps8fb0eab0.jpg)

Things got a bit hectic here, and I have no transition pictures from the above to the state of play at present

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5616_zps5ec1b70c.jpg)

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5618_zps9247fe12.jpg)

You may notice that the section of the front of the gravity tank has changed. It was at this point that I noticed in the photograph I was looking to for structural details that the top of the tank was flat, not rounded. This has happened to me before; when looking at a picture for some specific information, other things in the picture do not always register. Fortunately, some excess plastic I had built into the fuselage allowed me to fix this without too much bother. The bottom piece of the fuselage I had made deliberately thick (1mm sheet), and the sides also (0.75mm). My intent had been to sand away excess on the bottom, and the fuselage was running, as anticipated, a bit tall and wide by measure. So I sanded down the top instead, and sanded the sides rather thoroughly, too. I had to do a bit of reconstruction on the very front of the passenger's cockpit opening, and some reinforcing here and there with CA gel, and the cockpit decking now awfully thin in spots, but better that then pulling the decking and re-doing it a third time. In sanding down the sides I destroyed the 0.25mm cheek-pieces, and had to replace them.
The bottom of the cowing remained intact on 822 (I suspect it is structural). The piece was cut from 0.75mm sheet,and bent to its curve. The accommodation for the passenger's feet was built up from 0.25mm sheet. The structural framework is 0.75mm square rod. Framework on the bottom was added first, and thinned down a good deal. The front-plate is 0.5mm sheet. The uprights on either side were added next, and then the top pieces bent and fastened to them, and the front-plate. Most of this was 'hot' work, on the model, with things trimmed as indicated by the look of the curves.

Next bit will be the engine. The backdrop in the last photo is of a Sunbeam Crusader(the proper motor for this, not the Nubian as often stated), preserved in the Brussels museum.
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: radio on June 23, 2014, 01:56:01 AM
Pleasure update OM.
Martin
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: lone modeller on June 23, 2014, 02:27:32 AM
Know the problem about being in a hurry and forgetting to take photos on the way. Excellent description of excellent modelling. This is going to be another of your masterpieces I can see. Looking forward to more
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: Alexis on June 23, 2014, 05:52:15 AM
Moving forward quit well Oldman !





Terri
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: IanB on June 23, 2014, 10:48:26 AM
Nice save.
Funny how the actual modelling always seems to take precedence over pics!

Ian
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: Old Man on June 28, 2014, 01:41:01 PM
Thank you for the kind words, my friends.

A bit more progress here. Been sick with a bad summer cold for most of the past week, and so am a bit behind schedule, though I do still expect to get this done before the looming dead-line of July 28 over at Swanny's.

I have got the engine done up...

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5619_zps6b25b10d.jpg)

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5622_zps41717bba.jpg)

And the bearers constructed....

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5624_zps4cf05750.jpg)

Pattern is conjectural, but I cannot think of any other reasonable arrangement. Length, and gap, are taken from the engine piece's measurements.

Here is the motor on the bearers....

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5628_zps6f56adec.jpg)

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5637_zps94fd1866.jpg)

(backdrop is a blow-up of a Sunbeam advertisement circa 1914)

Next will be putting surface detail on fuselage, painting, mounting motor, plumbing and tail surfaces....
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: radio on June 28, 2014, 06:52:22 PM
Stunning work Old Man.
Martin
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: lone modeller on July 02, 2014, 07:39:46 AM
Very good engine - I especially like the detail and am looking forward to seeing the plumbing added. What did you make the engine from?

As usual your modelling standards leave me agog. Brilliant.
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: Alexis on July 02, 2014, 11:27:46 AM
Looking good Oldman  :)







Terri
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: Old Man on July 02, 2014, 01:02:11 PM
Thank you, my friends.

What did you make the engine from?


The main parts are from heavy sheet. The block is 3mm sheet, the cylinder banks, and the 'side-valve' element, are made from 2mm sheet, but were sanded down towards 1.5mm. The shaft gear 'cone' is from 2.5mm tube. The rest is various applique from sheet and rod.
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: Ernie on July 02, 2014, 01:08:14 PM
Nice progress OM. Very interesting and informative build. :D

Cheers,
Ernie :)
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: Old Man on July 02, 2014, 01:10:42 PM
Here is some further progress.
 
First, the engine has had its 'plumbing' added, and been painted:

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5640_zps16ef3d81.jpg)

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5643_zpsa08c6887.jpg)

The exposed members of the nose have received a mess o' wires....

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5644_zps0276d8ff.jpg)

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5648_zps4f084253.jpg)

The fuselage has been painted as well, and some bits of surface work put in.
 
Here is the engine on the bearers...

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5652_zpsaebae4b5.jpg)

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5655_zps61eb9807.jpg)

The large pipes are the exhaust manifolds; the outlet will curve down over the front-plate once everything is attached.
 
Finally, here is a look at fuselage and wings in approximate relation:

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5658_zpsd3e27998.jpg)

Still have ribs to put in on the tail surfaces, ailerons to deal with, and radiator and undercarriage to construct....
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: lone modeller on July 03, 2014, 02:42:07 AM
That is beginning to look like a well worn machine. Thanks for the tips on the engine which is a little gem if ever I saw one. This is a wonderful build, can't wait to see it complete.
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: Old Man on July 13, 2014, 04:34:35 AM
Well, friends, here is the great leap o' the critter: the wings are attached to the fuselage....

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5661_zpsc8c809bb.jpg)


(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5662_zps308022ed.jpg)


(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5664_zps315ecdea.jpg)


(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5666_zps5407b52b.jpg)


 When the lower wing was split, the halves got a bit out of true (not wholly unexpected). A bit of masking tape held them in place properly, and the fuselage went in between. It took a couple of runs, but nothing got nearly out of control.

I am not a great fan of articulated control surfaces, but the 'hanging ailerons' are so prominent a feature of photographs of the early 827s that I figured I really ought to in this case. The aileron pieces needed to be split (there was a short inner and a long outer aileron) and to have one gap. Control wires are 0.004" brass wire, painted: elastic, even barely stretched, threatened to pull the outer panels down visibly, with six separate lines for each aileron.

Though not shown, the tail surfaces are detailed and painted, and I have also since these pictures were taken put in the cabane rigging and roughed out the radiator.

I was fortunate to be able to get decals from Mr. Adams of Aeroclub (who posts over on Britmodeller): they are from his Short 184 kit, but have the Union Flag and logos and numbers I need for this.

It will, as usual, be a close-run thing to get this completed by the contest deadline of July 28, but I expect I will manage it....
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: RAGIII on July 13, 2014, 12:19:59 PM
In a word OUTSTANDING!
RAGIII
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: IanB on July 14, 2014, 01:11:26 AM
Lovely work, as usual. Nice to see you managed to get the flags sorted out, John's a decent guy lilke that!

Ian
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: lone modeller on July 14, 2014, 01:53:28 AM
Wonderful modelling. I am relieved to read that others have problems with wings and control surfaces: when people who make models of this quality have problems it makes me realise that I am not the only one……..
This is a first class model of an unusual subject and I am enjoying reading every post. Best of luck with the deadline and even more with the competition.
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: Old Man on July 17, 2014, 02:26:30 PM
Thank you very much, Gentlemen. A good deal of progress over the last week or so.

It is up on its hind legs now, with a radiator, and some of its tail-feathers....

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5669_zpsc0b2e9d1.jpg)

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5672_zpsb3776686.jpg)

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5675_zps1004b78e.jpg)

The vertical tail surfaces are also painted and ready, but I want to decal them before attaching them.

There is a certain amount of 'best guess' to the undercarriage, as the photo which shows it most clearly is of the machine after it broke its wheels and possibly some other things, but I have followed the way other Short float-planes of this size were converted to land operations with wheels at about the same time, which at least the picture does not contradict.

Finally, here is the thing up on some home-made spoked wheels....

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5678_zps71ec43e9.jpg)

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5680_zpsfb96ea8e.jpg)

I consider the wheels more 'proof of concept' prototypes rather then production examples of a settled technique. I took a run at using a photo-etch fret for spoked wheels I have had for a long time, but botched it. So I tried a technique I have been considering a while, sticking a 'half tire' down on a working surface with an axle stub in the center, gluing fine wire spokes in, then gluing two 'half tires' together. It works, but is hard to handle (I caved one finished wheel in completely) while eliminating the seam between the pieces. I have thought of a couple of ways I think will improve the process, and if I have time these may get clipped off and replaced by Mk. II versions.

There is a surprising amount of rigging left to do on this; kingpost bracing on the wings, and something similar on the rear fuselage, plus tail control wires, and some drag wires, and some stay wires for the radiator, and something on the undercarriage, and probably a few more things I hope I notice in time. And I have still to do the exhaust outlets and the propeller...and looking at these pictures, I notice a couple of aileron cables on the port aileron have worked loose, and will need repair..
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: coyotemagic on July 17, 2014, 02:36:32 PM
Wow, OM!  You have created quite a few masterpieces over the years that I've been acquainted with your work and this one promises to be your best yet.
Cheers,
Bud
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: Culi on July 17, 2014, 04:36:58 PM
Terrific work!
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: Nigel Jackson on July 17, 2014, 09:20:35 PM
Goodness me, OM, this is coming on beautifully.

Best wishes
Nigel
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: lone modeller on July 18, 2014, 02:32:23 AM
Wonderful OM - a masterpiece which is almost complete. That radiator on top of the engine looks to be a real Heath-Robinson job - quite amazing what was done in the Middle East at that time. Quite amazing what you have done now!
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: Old Man on July 21, 2014, 10:17:17 PM
Thank you very much, Gentlemen!

I did not quite get this done this weekend (the rigging was, quite literally, starting to give me a headache), but I feel pretty sanguine about getting it done before this coming weekend.

Here is how things stand now....

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5683_zps828a62af.jpg)

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5684_zps67fc4376.jpg)

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5686_zps5ba3c787.jpg)

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_5688_zpsf434d49a.jpg)

The rigging on this seems to never end, but there is not much remaining, mostly some drag and anti-drag wires, and a bit more connected with the undercarriage, as well as a 'duck's foot' bit on the elevators.

All the latest rigging is done with 0.004" brass wire, painted dark.

In painting the added exhaust pipes, I managed with an incautious slip of a finger to knock one side of the under-carriage completely off. It has been repaired, and the wire rigging added has sturdied it up a bit, but the incident has led me to abandon any thought of trimming off the wheels, even if I have time to get new ones made: the risk of damage in removing the present ones is too great to run at this stage in the game, and I am happy enough with 'proof of concept' prototype examples.

The Aeroclub decal sheet provided suitable numbers in the Short font, and company emblems, but they did have to be sized down a bit smaller, and swapped around (the rudder of the Type 184 is a bit larger, and one subject of the sheet was serial 842) and reprinted on clear film. The white background is a rectangle cut to size from Testor's film, and has been distressed with paint. The company number (S122) is dry transfer on clear film.
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: Des on July 21, 2014, 10:28:27 PM
Looking absolutely superb Old Man, that amount of rigging would give anyone a headache and man, what a radiator, it is huge, sorta blocks the view for the pilot. The decals turned out really well and and your weathering is excellent, looking forward to seeing her totally finished, it will be a gem.

Des.
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: Old Man on July 21, 2014, 10:54:03 PM
Looking absolutely superb Old Man, that amount of rigging would give anyone a headache and man, what a radiator, it is huge, sorta blocks the view for the pilot. The decals turned out really well and and your weathering is excellent, looking forward to seeing her totally finished, it will be a gem.

Des.

Thank you, Sir.

The use of stiff wire has benefits, but having to get ends in place on bits of rod particularly gets me pretty deep into 'this would be a lot easier if I could see what I'm doing' territory....

The Short Bros. radiator is an odd thing. As a radiator it worked well; its design was based on naval steam condensors, and since it was an assembly of vertical tubes, it had the virtue that if water was boiling away, the jacket, being the lowest point, would contain some water as long as there was any liquid remaining. There may have been something of a screen-door effect with visibility --- the tubes were arranged in banks, and there was some slotting between the banks (if I was not working to a tight contest deadline on this, I might have made a better effort to replicate this in scale by using separate rectangles with spacers to give more evident gaps between 'planes' of tubes). Still, I expect it was a bother. A pilot who flew one of these, both at Zanzibar and in Iraq, said that in warmer climes, he would rather not be flying a machine with its radiator right in front of his face. I do not think these ever got up high enough the warmth was welcome in Iraq, though on over-water patrols from stations in England often it must have been.
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: IanB on July 22, 2014, 12:41:16 AM
Another gem almost complete! She looks great, suitably grubby and used. Glad the decals worked out.

Ian
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: uncletony on July 22, 2014, 12:50:15 PM
Wow. Super cool OM.
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: lone modeller on July 24, 2014, 07:08:33 AM
Terrific modelling. Best of luck with the competition.
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: Alexis on July 25, 2014, 09:47:33 PM
 8) 8) 8)






Terri
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: RAGIII on July 26, 2014, 12:22:12 AM
Stunning Model! The rigging, decal work, and painting/weathering are superb!
RAGIII
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: Old Man on July 26, 2014, 01:16:21 AM
Thank you very much, my friends! I appreciate the kind words and encouragement.

Got the last bits on, and mounted it on its stand, late last night. Pictures will be taken today, and I will post with a write-up here in a couple of days.
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: ondra on July 29, 2014, 12:50:29 AM
Wow, Old Man, your scratch-building skills are really excellent! For sure I will be following your builds to learn!

Great job!

Cheers

Ondra
Title: Re: Short Type 827 (converted), RNAS Mesopotamia, 1915, in 1/72
Post by: Royston on July 29, 2014, 03:17:04 PM
Always loved the Shorts,
You have done a fantastic job on her.

Roy