Author Topic: Rib Tape Question  (Read 6171 times)

Offline Trackpad

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Rib Tape Question
« on: July 21, 2012, 07:56:19 AM »
Hi,

We've just seen Rowan Broadbent of Pheon post a thread describing a new sheet of decals for "Captured" aircraft: an Albatros DV and a Sopwith Pup. Aftre whining to Rowan for quite some time about the Albi markings, here they are. Fine, except I now have to make a choice of lozenge decals. A quick check indicates that this a/c carried five-colour lozenge - so far, so good. Now the question is, what is the colour of the rib tapes?

Stephen Lawson posted a tutorial on lozenge applicaton some years ago which is still considered to be a first rate exposition. In it, Stephen writes:

Now let us continue on the subject of rib tapes. In normal doping practice the tapes were doped on after the first brush coat. Then they were sewn in place as there were cotton battens nailed to the wood rib caps before the wing was covered in the fabric.
Concerning German aircraft:
There are four types known to have been used from the factory.
1. Clear Doped linen tapes were used on various two & single seat. LFG Roland is one of these.
2. Lt. Blue or lozenge tapes were used ONLY ON OAW built machines.
3. Salmon pink or lozenge tapes were used by Albatros, Johannistahl.

4. Fokker only used cut strips of the lozenge fabric.


Given Stephen's expertise on the subject, I'm certainly leaning toward the "Salmon Pink" version of Rowan's decals, as photos of the a/c in question clearly show a uniform tape colour as opposed to a lozenge finish. Further, it appears that the DV was built at the main Albatros factory as opposed to their OAW subsidiary. All that said, I thought that I'd post this question for the cognoscenti to read and discuss if there are any opposing thoughts to the Salmon Pink option. Any thoughts, ideas, suggestions or other comments will be most welcome!  :D
Cheers!
Gary

"It was an adventure, a great adventure. And, like all great adventures, we never knew where it would lead or how it would end."

Offline Trackpad

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Re: Rib Tape Question
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2012, 11:55:47 AM »
Well, here I am, answering...myself! Sifting through a couple of sites, I found two entries by Dan-San Abbott on the subject. DSA writes:

A. "The tape colors was (sic) to (my opinion) to identify the manufacture. The "salmon pink" tapes were only used by the Albatros and the light blue was only used by OAW. Albatros or OAW
 would not have mixed tape colors. There are several points of the contention." (DSA, Aerodrome, 8 Mar 2010). (Note: I don't know the clear meaning of the statement, "There are several points of the contention.")

B. "The Albatros Werke used salmon pink tape on Alb.D.V/D.Va rib tapes. To my knowledge, I do not know of any other German aircraft builder that used pink tapes of any shade for rib tapes." (DSA, Great War Forum, 17 Nov 2004).

I fully understand that, at this late date, no one will really know for sure. The best we (or "I") can do is to fall back on the Law of Probabilities. Right now, it appears "probable" that the tapes on 4545/17 were Salmon Pink.

And once we have this definitely confirmed, we'll sort out the colour of Lothar's triplane's upper wing...! ::)
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 02:32:51 AM by Trackpad »
Cheers!
Gary

"It was an adventure, a great adventure. And, like all great adventures, we never knew where it would lead or how it would end."

Offline lcarroll

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Re: Rib Tape Question
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2012, 12:19:10 PM »
Gary,
   I support your logic on the "Pink" tapes for this one. Should be quite a subject in the "captured" livery C/W  Rowan's excellent decals.
   As for the colour of Lothar's upper wing,  yellow over the streaked (original) finish of course. Reference................?? Cause I'd like it to be that way! (and also Voss's F1 had a bright yellow cowling!)
Cheers,
Lance ;D

Offline rowan broadbent

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Re: Rib Tape Question
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2012, 07:56:16 PM »
Well, here I am, answering...myself! Sifting through a couple of sites, I found two entries by Dan-San Abbott on the subject. DSA writes:

A. "The tape colors was (sic) to (my opinion) to identify the manufacture. The "salmon pink" tapes were only used by the Albatros and the light blue was only used by OAW. Albatros or OAW
 would not have mixed tape colors. There are several points of the contention." (DSA, Aerodrome, 8 Mar 2010).

B. "The Albatros Werke used salmon pink tape on Alb.D.V/D.Va rib tapes. To my knowledge, I do not know of any other German aircraft builder that used pink tapes of any shade for rib tapes." (DSA, Great War Forum, 17 Nov 2004). (Note: I don't know the clear meaning of the statement, "There are several points of the contention.")

I fully understand that, at this late date, no one will really know for sure. The best we (or "I") can do is to fall back on the Law of Probabilities. Right now, it appears "probable" that the tapes on 4545/17 were Salmon Pink.

And once we have this definitely confirmed, we'll sort out the colour of Lothar's triplane's upper wing...! ::)

Dear old Dan-San! How I miss him.

I know he unearthed many colouring and marking details but he had a habit of stating things as being so without quoting his reasoning or sources. At least in statement 'A' the words "in my opinion" appear.

In Dan-San's opinion the tapes were used to identify the manufacturer.

In the opinion of others, the differentially coloured blue and pink tapes might ORIGINALLY have been intended to tone in with the top and bottom lozenge colours (blue upper, pink lower), but this was quickly found to be too time-consuming (application of a single tape wrapping around the leading edge and covering the rib locations top and bottom was much quicker) and the possibility of holding up production due to a shortage of the right colour of rib tape was seen as undesirable and unnecessary - particularly given the negligible impact of blue or pink tapes on the camouflage effect of the printed fabric, so rib tapes of whatever colour available were applied by either factory. NOTE I have NO evidence that this is true - it is an explanation of sorts and probably just as valid as any other until documentary evidence is unearthed - or if it has already been discovered, produced.

There is a view that the different rib tape colours can be discerned from period black and white photographs, thus a correlation between the perceived rib colour and the serial number has been made and the link of a particular colour to a specific manufacturer established. This may be the origin of Dan-San's opinion - I don't know.

It might just be possible to correlate the grey-shade of a rib tape to the grey-shade of a particular lozenge, whose colour is known from its shape and position and from there make a reasonable stab at saying the rib colour was blue or pink but that depends on the photograph being of good quality and the lozenges clearly identifiable. While photos of such quality do exist, there aren't many of them. At one point Dan-San was making pronouncements of colours in black and white photos based entirely on their grey-scale interpretation - he even was quoting Methuen colour references at one point. This approach was seen and proved to be false and he seemed to stop making such pronouncements after a while.

I am not looking to start a war of words here or to damage the memory and research credentials of a man I regarded as a friend and who did an enormous amount to aid our understanding of WWI aviation history and colours and markings. I just would like someone to explain these strictures about rib tape colours stating their sources and reasoning, so that we can verify their claims, or otherwise.
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack, a crack in everything – that’s how the light gets in

Leonard Cohen

Offline Trackpad

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Re: Rib Tape Question
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2012, 02:31:02 AM »
Hi, Lance and Rowan,

Thanks to you both for your comments. I'm certainly not wanting to start a dustup on the topic either, just digging around to see what the consensus is. As I mentioned, I don't think that we really know for sure and I don't think that we ever will have the cut-and-dried, 100% answer. It's currently up to the modeller to make the call based on what he/she thinks is most likely, and I value the input of those "in the know," like Rowan, who spends phenomenal amounts of time and effort to ensure the accuracy of his decals. Although I currently tend towards the pink, there is no firm evidence one way or the other, as Rowan points out: all sorts of reasons why, and all sorts of reasons why not.

Crunch time for me will come when the "Captured Aircraft" sheets become available. I  may have to make a hard-nosed, cold and logical decision...and buy both Albi rib tape colours: should have been a politician!  ;D

Thanks again, gentlemen, both. I really appreciate your input!
Cheers!
Gary

"It was an adventure, a great adventure. And, like all great adventures, we never knew where it would lead or how it would end."

Offline coyotemagic

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Re: Rib Tape Question
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2012, 03:39:31 AM »
I share Rowan's philosophy on this.  I have to, otherwise I would be forced to strip the rib tapes off my Hannover and let her languish on the bench until difinitive information comes forth.
Cheers,
Bud
"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream in the dark recesses of the night awake in the day to find all was vanity. But the dreamers of day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, and make it possible." -T. E. Lawrence

Offline lcarroll

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Re: Rib Tape Question
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2012, 05:31:44 AM »
I believe were all more or less in agreement; there are some 100% verifiable facts regarding our favorite subject(s) such as technical data, documented figures and offical records and then there's the realm of the subjective. To state with certainty that this or that colour is correct or not is near impossible as remaining samples have faded and colour photography was virtually undeveloped. I like Bud's comment regarding definitive info and my tongue in cheek comment earlier regarding Lothar's DR1 and Voss's F1 was meant in that spirit. The constant discussion on these topics is, to me, half the enjoyment of the hobby; one informed opinion is as good as the next and there's so much to be learned from the logic involved. I build to the specs where I can however on colours and sometimes markings I go to the best data I can find, there often are no absolutes. I dare say that a Time Machine adventure would be full of surprises for us all!
Bottom line, when I get to my Fokker F1 in Voss's colours it will have a yellow cowling; I've read what I figure is most of the discussions, articles, and regretably heated arguements on yellow vs. brown/green and I side with the yellow crowd...........and I'm confident in my decision and getting there was half the fun considering I havn't cut a piece off a sprue yet!
Cheers,
Lance

Offline coyotemagic

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Re: Rib Tape Question
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2012, 06:21:52 AM »
I believe were all more or less in agreement; there are some 100% verifiable facts regarding our favorite subject(s) such as technical data, documented figures and offical records and then there's the realm of the subjective. To state with certainty that this or that colour is correct or not is near impossible as remaining samples have faded and colour photography was virtually undeveloped. I like Bud's comment regarding definitive info and my tongue in cheek comment earlier regarding Lothar's DR1 and Voss's F1 was meant in that spirit. The constant discussion on these topics is, to me, half the enjoyment of the hobby; one informed opinion is as good as the next and there's so much to be learned from the logic involved. I build to the specs where I can however on colours and sometimes markings I go to the best data I can find, there often are no absolutes. I dare say that a Time Machine adventure would be full of surprises for us all!
Bottom line, when I get to my Fokker F1 in Voss's colours it will have a yellow cowling; I've read what I figure is most of the discussions, articles, and regretably heated arguements on yellow vs. brown/green and I side with the yellow crowd...........and I'm confident in my decision and getting there was half the fun considering I havn't cut a piece off a sprue yet!
Cheers,
Lance
How do you feel about blue for the face, Lance?  Just tossing another fly into the already fly clogged ointment. 

Cheers,
Bud
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 06:24:37 AM by coyotemagic »
"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream in the dark recesses of the night awake in the day to find all was vanity. But the dreamers of day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, and make it possible." -T. E. Lawrence

Offline lcarroll

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Re: Rib Tape Question
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2012, 06:31:55 AM »
Bud,
    As likely (IMHO) as the White face I'll probably use. On the other hand, I note by the content of your threads, that you weren't born yesterday............and have an informed approach to such things......................blue you say?!? :-\ :o
Cheers,
Lance

Offline coyotemagic

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Re: Rib Tape Question
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2012, 06:49:30 AM »
This isn't my model, Lance.  This little gem was built by a good friend of mine, JR Boye, and was displayed at the Over the Front Convention in October.  The consensus among the VERY well informed gathering was the same as yours.  Could go either way.  JR's arguement was that a Japanese kite, after which the face was modeled, would more likely have a blue face than white since the white wouldn't show against the yellow at a distance.  As for me, I'm still on the fence regarding olive vs. yellow, but leaning more towards yellow the more research I do.  When I get it sorted, I'll build an F.I.  If I live that long. ;)
Cheers,
Bud
"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream in the dark recesses of the night awake in the day to find all was vanity. But the dreamers of day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, and make it possible." -T. E. Lawrence

Offline lcarroll

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Re: Rib Tape Question
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2012, 11:30:31 AM »
This isn't my model, Lance.  This little gem was built by a good friend of mine, JR Boye, and was displayed at the Over the Front Convention in October.  The consensus among the VERY well informed gathering was the same as yours.  Could go either way.  JR's arguement was that a Japanese kite, after which the face was modeled, would more likely have a blue face than white since the white wouldn't show against the yellow at a distance.  As for me, I'm still on the fence regarding olive vs. yellow, but leaning more towards yellow the more research I do.  When I get it sorted, I'll build an F.I.  If I live that long. ;)
Cheers,
Bud

Bud,
   In no particular order, an OTF Convention, I can only dream! One of the best (my opinion) Aviation Artists, Russel Smith, chose the yellow with white face for his "Last Dance of the Hussar" painting depicting Voss's last mission against McCudden, Rhys Davids, et al. I have a numbered copy hanging in my home, a gift from my Son, that I treasure. Mr Smith does his homework for sure and his yellow with white is where I'm presently at. There's plenty of supporting and contrary opinions out there, and like you, I hope to live long enough to see the resolution and build the perfect (read correct) Voss F1.
  In the interim, who has more fun then a bunch of WWI affictionados debating details no one can (REALLY) be caught out on.
  Now, you may well ask, `what does all of this have to do with salmon pink rib tapes........ :-\ :-\ :-\
Cheers,
Lance

Offline coyotemagic

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Re: Rib Tape Question
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2012, 01:17:20 PM »
Now, you may well ask, `what does all of this have to do with salmon pink rib tapes........ :-\ :-\ :-\
Cheers,
Lance
Equally controversial? ???
Cheers,
Bud
PS-Here's hoping you'll get to an OTF convention soon, buddy.  Heaven on Earth.
"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream in the dark recesses of the night awake in the day to find all was vanity. But the dreamers of day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, and make it possible." -T. E. Lawrence

Offline lcarroll

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Re: Rib Tape Question
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2012, 12:15:15 AM »
QUOTE:  "I suspect that was merely coincidental - a suitable grade of material could be sourced in a particular area, so it was - it happened to be pink, salmon, or blue, depending what was available at the time.       '

Well stated Red Baron. Further in support of your assessment the use of lozenge material cut into strips was also an option used. My logic is that the lozenge material was much more expensive and more limited in quantity then was plain material thus I'll bet lozenge was the last option employed for tapes. The old expression, "the only thing were sure of is..............were not sure" certainly applies.
Cheers,
Lance ;)

Offline rowan broadbent

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Re: Rib Tape Question
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2012, 01:53:19 AM »
QUOTE:  "I suspect that was merely coincidental - a suitable grade of material could be sourced in a particular area, so it was - it happened to be pink, salmon, or blue, depending what was available at the time.       '

Well stated Red Baron. Further in support of your assessment the use of lozenge material cut into strips was also an option used. My logic is that the lozenge material was much more expensive and more limited in quantity then was plain material thus I'll bet lozenge was the last option employed for tapes. The old expression, "the only thing were sure of is..............were not sure" certainly applies.
Cheers,
Lance ;)

I think it is worth saying that the use of cut lozenge strips is much easier to verify from photographs than the single-colour dyed strips. As far as the Albatros D.V/Va is concerned, I have never heard of lozenge strips being used for rib-tapes.

I believe the cost element Lance mentions is well worth consideration; it is a fair assumption to make that single colour "dip dyeing" of material, as used for the single-coloured tapes, was a lot cheaper than the four/five colour roller printing used for "lozenge" material - although economies of scale need to be taken into account. Perhaps if sufficient volume of Lozenge fabric was being ordered the cost reduced significantly and might conceivably have matched the dyeing cost for relatively small quantities of single-coloured tapes. Cheapest of all, of course, would be the plain linen tapes used by a number of manufacturers late in the war.

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Offline coyotemagic

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Re: Rib Tape Question
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2012, 02:14:26 AM »
It would be very cool if we had a source for plain linen tapes in all scales (especially 1/48), dontcha think, Rowan? ;)  I've not seen plain linen tape decals anywhere and that would have been my first choice for the Hannover.
Cheers,
Bud
"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream in the dark recesses of the night awake in the day to find all was vanity. But the dreamers of day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, and make it possible." -T. E. Lawrence