Authentic color Drooling Bulldog

[rowan broadbent]

Hello Kai,

I don’t see things going in the direction you fear for a number of reasons:

•   There was virtually zero standardisation in WWI compared to WWII – mass production, the main driver of standardisation was very much in its infancy and so such things as standard paint recipes and colour catalogues were very much the exception.
•   The scarcity of colour information is much greater for WWI and so there is much more room for different interpretations to be equally valid.
•   Dare I say that WWI modellers are a different breed of modeller? We tend not to be quite so closed-minded.

Having said that, the “WNW effect” (gawd bless ‘em) is bringing many more modellers into WWI from other genres, such as WWII and even more modern periods and some of these newcomers will seek the colour “certainties” that they have become used to in these other fields – it is perhaps incumbent on all of us to temper their desire for certainty and to prevent it leading to misplaced reliance on spurious information.

My email bag is regularly bulked out with enquiries from modellers “seeking the truth” about this or that colour scheme or lozenge application and I always try to lower their expectations! Likewise in the booklets which accompany our decal sets I try to be as circumspect as I can and always attempt to separate fact from supposition, guesswork, extrapolation or speculation. Sadly it is apparent that I am not always successful and I’ve already seen more than one reference to a particularly mealy-mouthed, hyper-qualified and cautiously stated OPINION in one of my booklets as FACT.

I have no great problem with you "contracting out" your colour worries to me (especially if you buy the decals!) but please make sure that when I say something is guesswork, that’s how you regard it! I know that I’m not alone in this and I’m simply following the excellent examples set by the likes of Ray Rimell, Richard Alexander, Alan Tolle and many others! I know that Richard and Harry are equally clear about differentiating fact from fiction regarding lozenge fabrics, in particular.

This forum of Des’ is blessedly free of “colour wars” and strutting egos and is a great example of how a well-run forum should operate, I'm sure we can all keep it that way!

EDIT: I think, Matt, that Lukas is right; let's not forget that English is not the first language of many of those who post here. Also there may be a little bit of marketing hyperbole sloshing around.....

[zavod44]

If there is a set of decals I'll build this tomorrow......

[rowan broadbent]

If there is a set of decals I'll build this tomorrow......

Working on one now......

Bo, is this the recently uncovered air to air photo found at the back of Lanoe Hawker's auntie's mahogany tallboy?

[uncletony]

If there is a set of decals I'll build this tomorrow......

Working on one now......

Bo, is this the recently uncovered air to air photo found at the back of Lanoe Hawker's auntie's mahogany tallboy?

It is. Hawker took the photo with the prototype Kodak Instamatic furnished to him by Q. Sadly many of the photos he took of his famous and tragic duel with the Red Baron -- seen grinning manically as as gripped the twin levers of his smoking Spandaus in his scarlet Triplane -- were lost.

[Matt Parvis]

Lukas, Rowan, you both are certainly correct.  In writing my post it did occur to me that it could be a translation problem and that is a big part of the reason I closed with the thought that they probably didn't mean it that way, but, that was how I understood it which in turn produced the reaction it did.

Written language is a grand thing and even between native speakers of a given language it is extraordinarily easy to take things the wrong way, throw in different languages and... look out. 

Matt   

[WarrenD]

OK, it appears my comments have caused a tempest of sorts, and it is my hope that this post might sort some of it out instead of making it worse.

For over thirty years I had an avocation, and sometimes vocation, of recreating history for historic sites, battlefield parks, etc., at one time being employed as an interpretive historian at what was considered by many in the field as one of the top three living history sites in the U.S. (This is the VERY short version BTW.) As a result of this, I have a very good understanding of what is involved in historical research (pre-internet at that too!), and in fact, my attraction to reading, researching, and trying to build WWI aircraft models was a direct result of all of this. It was an attempt to find a "history" hobby outside of one that had grown into a monster. The lack of standardization and the amount of unknowns regarding WWI aviation at that time (early/mid 1990's) had an attraction to me, and add to that it was kind of "quiet" over in the WWI aviation corner. WWI aviation research and modeling was seen as somewhat of a niche, inhabited by quirky, laid-back people, and most folks left us alone to do our own eccentric thing.
Add to this, I've seen pronouncements over the years ranging from Tom Cleaver declaring with absolute certainty that RLM02 was the absolute correct color for Fokker metalwork (based entirely off of an innocent post on the WWI Modeling List where someone stated that RLM02 was a good, close color choice to use when building a model) all the way to DSA (God rest his soul) saying he could read B&W photocopies and tell you with certainty which color was what over at the Aerodrome.
Based on my past in recreating history in 12":1' scale, and reading/researching in order to try and recreate history in a much smaller scale, my "spidey-sense" tingles anytime someone comes along and declares their product, research, etc. as the living end, absolute certain truth. Over the years I've seen too many absolutes turned on their ear. Don't get me wrong, I'm in search of the truth as much as the next guy, and I'm all for better products in terms of documentation, authenticity, etc.

I look forward to trying DB paint if it ever makes its way to the U.S. I look forward to reading more about the research involved in its creation, etc. My apologies for raining on someone's parade, upsetting the apple cart, and rocking the boat in general.

Y'all have a good day,

Warren

[Hellboy]

Gentlemen, unfortunately I am not from an English-speaking country I am from Czech Republic and my English is not very good. I did not say that these colors are only correct, but that the manufacturer has used its experience and expertise and colors made from pigments that were available at the time. Therefore, it is a high probability that they will be very similar to those that are used at that time.

[Buccaneer]

  For years I have been fascinated by the colors of the early 1/28 Revell Camel kit, as depicted in the photo on the original box...even while realizing the colors in the photo are somewhat illusory due to the lighting and print. In the photo, the wheels and undersides appear distinctly cream colored, and in fact Testor's Cream enamel is almost a perfect match for that shade. The upper fuselage and wings appear almost blue green, a shade kind of approximating RGB 0/64/64. In the past I have even tried to match that color with various mixes based on medium ocean blues (Vallejo and other brands). I know full well neither shade, the cream nor the blue green, is historically accurate. But they ARE historically accurate for that Revell box art, LOL! And so they have a certain nostalgia value and a place in my heart and imagination.

  Likewise, there is a well-known replica of the Fokker E.V built by Brian Coughlin, as photographed at Fantasy of Flight, etc., with lozenge and paint that is almost certainly not "historically accurate" but is still quite awesome in its own right...particularly the color scheme of the lozenge fabric. Even if no original lozenge fabric ever matched those colors, the effect on that airframe is esthetically stunning and beautiful. I would love to have lozenge decals in that color scheme whether they are historically accurate or not, because, at the very least...they are historically accurate for that replica and that replica in itself is an awesome piece of work.

  So I think there is plenty of room for purists and impurists both to enjoy whatever is available in whatever way they choose to use it. I am instinctively rooting for the success of anyone who makes an effort to expand the range of what is available and possible for all modelers everywhere.

[Matt Parvis]

 Hellboy, your English is certainly better than my Czech!    As I said above, translation problems were in my mind, but, I probably didn't take them into account enough.  Sorry about that and I will try and do better about keeping it in mind. 

Matt

[coyotemagic]

Lukas, Rowan, you both are certainly correct.  In writing my post it did occur to me that it could be a translation problem and that is a big part of the reason I closed with the thought that they probably didn't mean it that way, but, that was how I understood it which in turn produced the reaction it did.

Written language is a grand thing and even between native speakers of a given language it is extraordinarily easy to take things the wrong way, throw in different languages and... look out. 

Matt

I'd like to quote a dear old friend of mine regarding this very subject back on the 'drome: "Oh, Lord! Please don't let me be misunderstood" - Kevin McAvoy, quoting Gary Burdon, quoting  Bennie Benjamin, Gloria Caldwell and Sol Marcus.  Must give credit where credit's due, eh?  Otherwise, a whole new set of misunderstanding could develop, creating a cataclysmic chain reaction resulting in disciplinary actions or worse.  You know, the Great War began as a result of just such misunderstandings and look how that turned out.


Cheers,
Bud

[Pgtaylorart]

This whole discussion of "correct color" is very interesting to me. As an artist, I've spent my whole career searching for that elusive perfect color. The impressionists made an entire art movement based on this. The reality, in my opinion, is it doesn't exist. Color doesn't work in a vacuum, it is relative to the colors surrounding it, simultaneous contrast, ambient lighting, time of day, viewing distance, the list goes on.

If somehow a pristine batch of WW1 lozenge inks and paints appeared, and we used them on our model, it would probably appear too dark and to saturated. Lighting, whether incandescent, fluorescent, daylight balanced, etc., further changes the appearance. Color is a science when it comes to chemical makeup, perceptions in our eyes, etc., but what really makes it work for our purpose is when our artistic perception is employed.

When painting a model, the important considerations for me are where will the model ultimately be viewed, and does it look correct to my eye. If it looks correct, then it is correct, even if the "expert" doesn't think so.   

And as a side note: It is funny to me when people think they can tell color in a B&W photo. A shiny black surface in direct sunlight can appear white, and white can appear dark. You have to take the specularity of the surface into account. Values of black, white, and greys can sometimes be more linked to shininess than relative color value.

[uncletony]

And as a side note: It is funny to me when people think they can tell color in a B&W photo. A shiny black surface in direct sunlight can appear white, and white can appear dark. You have to take the specularity of the surface into account. Values of black, white, and greys can sometimes be more linked to shininess than relative color value.

I'll take it a step further -- you can't even depend on a COLOR photograph to judge the original color of an artifact with any real precision. The same factors, plus the type of film (or white balance) print gamut etc...

[RAGIII]

Having had the Advantage of reading everyones post that came before me I will add my comment. I think that any attempt to use some basis of research for creating a line of WW1 pants is FANTASTIC! I know that at one time Richard of Aviattic had a line planned but Postal Regs put a damper on that phase of his planned business. The bottom line is we can assume that the paints will be a Good Starting point and most likely as accurate as possible. If it saves me time by not having to mix my own then that is TERRIFIC. Like Warren my biggest concern is will it be shippable to the States?
RAGIII

[WarrenD]

Same here RAG, I'm really excited about them, but I'm dreading some bad news regarding postal regs. 

I've even considered trying to get a business license and becoming a U.S. stockist for this and the new iteration of WEM paints, but our house is very small, and I don't have room for inventory, shipping boxes, etc. If I can come up with an off-site space, I still might consider doing it for those of us in the U.S., Canada, etc.

As Pgtaylorart said, color is such a subjective thing. I remember some research some friends of mine were doing almost thirty years ago on some uniforms, and the subject of the "correct" color came up. Like Pgtaylorart, they said is was subject to so many variables (including the viewers age and even diet to boot) that it's just too hard to nail it down. Sometimes it's easier for us to say what it isn't rather than what it is.

Warren

[Cajun]

No U.S. Distribution?? oh well Ill stick with Tamiya til then or Misterkit comes back around.