Author Topic: Nieuport 16 N.1208 Paul Pavelka N.124  (Read 15069 times)

WarrenD

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Re: Nieuport 16 N.1208 Paul Pavelka N.124
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2015, 12:00:20 AM »
Dave!
         Somehow I missed your initial posting of this "batch build", and I'm so sorry, but glad I've caught up.  :D   You're doing a great job, and I like the theme you've chosen. We've had some great times in the past discussing Nieuports, and I'll definitely be following you on this one and cheerleading for you from the sidelines.
I hope to get back to my Nieuports soon as well. Not sure just yet what schemes I'm going to be doing, and I may leave it as a surprise.

I like your custom mix for the blue on the roundels and rudder, I'm currently looking for something off the shelf that is close. I'm also going to have to resort to masks I think.

Too bad that in my scale the only only Nie.11's and 16's are the Toko/Eastern Express kits. There was a T.C. Berg Nie.11 on ebay I tried to win, but it got way to rich for my blood at $52.00.  :P :'(

I'm really looking forward to your progress on this. I just finished re-reading the Nieuport Flyers of the LE DFS last night.

Warren

Offline Cajun

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Re: Nieuport 16 N.1208 Paul Pavelka N.124
« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2015, 01:03:54 AM »
Dave!
         Somehow I missed your initial posting of this "batch build", and I'm so sorry, but glad I've caught up.  :D   You're doing a great job, and I like the theme you've chosen. We've had some great times in the past discussing Nieuports, and I'll definitely be following you on this one and cheerleading for you from the sidelines.
I hope to get back to my Nieuports soon as well. Not sure just yet what schemes I'm going to be doing, and I may leave it as a surprise.

I like your custom mix for the blue on the roundels and rudder, I'm currently looking for something off the shelf that is close. I'm also going to have to resort to masks I think.

Too bad that in my scale the only only Nie.11's and 16's are the Toko/Eastern Express kits. There was a T.C. Berg Nie.11 on ebay I tried to win, but it got way to rich for my blood at $52.00.  :P :'(

I'm really looking forward to your progress on this. I just finished re-reading the Nieuport Flyers of the LE DFS last night.

Warren

your a 1/72 guy too eh....

 Been seeing the N.16 at good prices lately  on ebay....what I call good is Under $20 shipped lol

WarrenD

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Re: Nieuport 16 N.1208 Paul Pavelka N.124
« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2015, 01:21:07 AM »
Yeah Cajun, I've got a couple in the stash. I'll tackle them when I feel like dealing with their errors (wrong wing incidence angle, incorrect location for interplane struts, etc.).

Warren

Offline Cajun

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Re: Nieuport 16 N.1208 Paul Pavelka N.124
« Reply #33 on: February 08, 2015, 01:48:10 AM »
Yeah Cajun, I've got a couple in the stash. I'll tackle them when I feel like dealing with their errors (wrong wing incidence angle, incorrect location for interplane struts, etc.).

Warren

 I feel ya....got a nice little stash of N.11 and N.16's nice.... planning and maybe hoping to do a N.124 Diorama with them one day....one day lol

Offline davecww1

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Re: Nieuport 16 N.1208 Paul Pavelka N.124
« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2015, 02:39:49 AM »
Yeah Cajun, I've got a couple in the stash. I'll tackle them when I feel like dealing with their errors (wrong wing incidence angle, incorrect location for interplane struts, etc.).

Warren
Hi Warren,
Sorry to hear the Toko kit has so many problems with the dimensions.  I know that Matt Bittner made a corrected master for the wings that Roseparts used to make resin corrections.  You might want to contact matt to see if he still has one, would be worth trying to make a mold and resin cast them like the N.11 fuselage you were talking about recently. 
Luckily for me, dimensionally the 1/48 scale Eduard Nieuport seems to have no major flaws as far as I know other than the engine for the N.16, ribs match the Windsock Datafile special, the interior photoetch is nice and this will allow me to build a bunch of them!
Dave 

Offline davecww1

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Re: Nieuport 16 N.1208 Paul Pavelka N.124
« Reply #35 on: February 08, 2015, 02:57:46 AM »
If you look at my first photo you can see that one of the planes in my Nieuports over Verdun series is the blue N.11 flown by Guynemer.
Oh sorry!
the color you used seems accurate to my eyes...
Anyway I am always asking my self about this blue coat. Is the 836 the only one ? if not how much and why?
One problem is that this color is very difficult to detect in B&W pics...

Xan

Hi Xan,
The blue color used by Nieuport was one of the factory applied colors according to toelle's article.  he cannot find any information of the qty painted this way but says for the solid colored ones there was horizon blue, cream, and possibly red ochre and green.  From the photo you posted of Guynemer's N.836 it is hard to tell what is what since everything appears to be the same color, fuselage, wings, wheels, metal struts and even cowling.  Or it could be just the bright sunlight when the photo was taken that makes everything look like a common color.  We can look at photos of Chapman's N.11.1148 show that on the cream scheme the metal struts and machine guns appear darker, so they would be the horizon blue, but the cowl is definitely natural metal and there are no outlines on the wings (other than on the camouflaged replacement right lower wing).  So it might be a safe assumption to say that the horizon blue Nieuports were painted overall with a horizon blue that matched the French infantry uniform, while the lighter parts would have been the darker blue...   this is where it gets confusing, as I have read some comments on the Aerodrome forum on painting the Nieuport 11 replica on display at the San Diego Air Museum, and they say that  the metal parts and outlines on the wings were painted to match the earlier Adrian helmets, which is a darker blue than the horizon blue.  So there is no way to know for sure, but I think the color that cage a poule used for his N.836 model is a perfect match to the fabric of the Horizon blue french greatcoat that I posted the photo of...
Perhaps we will never know for sure.
Dave

WarrenD

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Re: Nieuport 16 N.1208 Paul Pavelka N.124
« Reply #36 on: February 08, 2015, 06:58:32 AM »
I do not think we can become too dogmatic about "horizon blue", doing so brings out the historic preservationist, museum employee, living history & reenacting geek in me. I am not a textile expert by any means, nor an expert in WWI uniforms. However, having been a collector before, and having friends who have not only done some pretty in depth research, but have some pretty awesome, advanced collections, I think I can say a thing or two about it with a modicum of "cred".
I know of a young feller who creates true, museum quality replicas of WWI uniforms, and spent a summer in museums across France cataloguing, photographing, etc. French army uniforms and accoutrements. He told me, as an observation, that "horizon blue" ran the gamut from a sky blue, to violet, to purple, to blue, etc. This makes perfect sense to me as some friends of mine had undertaken a study of US Army sack coats during the ACW and looked at about a dozen originals held in the collection of the Smithsonian, US Army Collections, etc. They said if you could have a rainbow out of dark blue, that's what you'd get if you lined them all up side by side. After hearing about my acquaintances research trip to France, and his observations afterward, it only makes sense to me that there would be some variation, etc.

Just my two kopeks,

Warren

Offline davecww1

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Re: Nieuport 16 N.1208 Paul Pavelka N.124
« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2015, 07:42:40 AM »
I do not think we can become too dogmatic about "horizon blue", doing so brings out the historic preservationist, museum employee, living history & reenacting geek in me. I am not a textile expert by any means, nor an expert in WWI uniforms. However, having been a collector before, and having friends who have not only done some pretty in depth research, but have some pretty awesome, advanced collections, I think I can say a thing or two about it with a modicum of "cred".
I know of a young feller who creates true, museum quality replicas of WWI uniforms, and spent a summer in museums across France cataloguing, photographing, etc. French army uniforms and accoutrements. He told me, as an observation, that "horizon blue" ran the gamut from a sky blue, to violet, to purple, to blue, etc. This makes perfect sense to me as some friends of mine had undertaken a study of US Army sack coats during the ACW and looked at about a dozen originals held in the collection of the Smithsonian, US Army Collections, etc. They said if you could have a rainbow out of dark blue, that's what you'd get if you lined them all up side by side. After hearing about my acquaintances research trip to France, and his observations afterward, it only makes sense to me that there would be some variation, etc.

Just my two kopeks,

Warren
True Warren, I was also going to post a link showing a row of 5 WW1 French horizon blue uniforms, all different from darker blue gray to the light sky blue, but picked one for consistency's sake since it was almost a perfect match for the model of guynemer's aircraft posted by Xan.  Some thoughts for the future but not to worry about for this particular aircraft...

WarrenD

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Re: Nieuport 16 N.1208 Paul Pavelka N.124
« Reply #38 on: February 09, 2015, 07:46:28 AM »
I do not think we can become too dogmatic about "horizon blue", doing so brings out the historic preservationist, museum employee, living history & reenacting geek in me. I am not a textile expert by any means, nor an expert in WWI uniforms. However, having been a collector before, and having friends who have not only done some pretty in depth research, but have some pretty awesome, advanced collections, I think I can say a thing or two about it with a modicum of "cred".
I know of a young feller who creates true, museum quality replicas of WWI uniforms, and spent a summer in museums across France cataloguing, photographing, etc. French army uniforms and accoutrements. He told me, as an observation, that "horizon blue" ran the gamut from a sky blue, to violet, to purple, to blue, etc. This makes perfect sense to me as some friends of mine had undertaken a study of US Army sack coats during the ACW and looked at about a dozen originals held in the collection of the Smithsonian, US Army Collections, etc. They said if you could have a rainbow out of dark blue, that's what you'd get if you lined them all up side by side. After hearing about my acquaintances research trip to France, and his observations afterward, it only makes sense to me that there would be some variation, etc.

Just my two kopeks,

Warren
True Warren, I was also going to post a link showing a row of 5 WW1 French horizon blue uniforms, all different from darker blue gray to the light sky blue, but picked one for consistency's sake since it was almost a perfect match for the model of guynemer's aircraft posted by Xan.  Some thoughts for the future but not to worry about for this particular aircraft...

Egg-zactly.

Warren

Offline davecww1

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Re: Nieuport 16 N.1208 Paul Pavelka N.124
« Reply #39 on: February 09, 2015, 07:51:21 AM »
Latest update on a snowy New England weekend...  I was looking in the box of Nieuport parts Friday night and cannot find any of the clear canopies from the 3 Eduard kits in the box... I'm sure they were in the original Eduard boxes but have been misplaced over the years since I started these.  so I decided to open up another Nieuport 11 kit in my stash and make a resin copy of the canopy (windscreen may be a more accurate term...) this allowed me to pull out my old Mattel Vac-u-Form which I restored a couple of years ago with a new pattern holder and seals for the vacuum pump.  The secret to getting this to work I have found out is to let it warm up 10-15 minutes before your first pul, then once it is warmed properly you only need to heat the plastic sheet a couple of minutes before you can get a good pull.  I made 4 nice copies so I will have enough to finish the three in the works and replace any damaged in the cutting or painting stage. 





Offline uncletony

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Re: Nieuport 16 N.1208 Paul Pavelka N.124
« Reply #40 on: February 09, 2015, 08:21:57 AM »
Nice work there Dave.

Offline RAGIII

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Re: Nieuport 16 N.1208 Paul Pavelka N.124
« Reply #41 on: February 09, 2015, 09:07:19 AM »
Nice work Dave! I do Miss My Old Mattel Vac u Form Machine!
RAGIII
"A man has to know his limitations": Harry Callahan

"Don't slop it on" Lynda Geisler

Offline davecww1

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Re: Nieuport 16 N.1208 Paul Pavelka N.124
« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2015, 07:35:44 AM »
Another week of work, assembled the lower wing to the fuselage and puttied that all and smoothed it in, not that easy since they were already painted, but I ended up brush painting the light blue bottom with the Misterkit paint, that levels nicely to avoid brush marks and took a couple of coats to blend everything nicely.  I scored the horizontal tailplane and bent the elevators to the dropped position as usually seen on the Nieuports on the ground.  Then ran a brushful of glue down the score line.  Will have to go back with a black wash later as bending it cracked the plastic and some gray plastic is visible between the two blue lines.  So I assembled the rear tailplane to the fuselage using a Lego block jig to be sure everything dried straight and level...






Offline davecww1

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Re: Nieuport 16 N.1208 Paul Pavelka N.124
« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2015, 07:46:03 AM »
Forgot to mention, I also applied my home made decals to the fuselage, lower wings and tailplane, and rudder.  One thing I'm not sure about, the dark brown on the fuselage looks a little too dark to me as it is hard to see the PV brand on the side, but perhaps that is ok since it was supposed to represent a cattle brand on a piece of cow skin so would not be that much of a difference, but I will have to google cowskin I guess to find out how dark the dark brown areas really are!   
Also note in photos of this heavily repaired aircraft the center section areas of the wing were repaired and repainted at the Escadrille level, so the repaired area on the upper wing was camouflaged by brush using whatever colors they had.  Also you can see clearly in other photos of this plane that the bottom of the wing had a different color in the centersection than on the outer wing area, so I am figuring the outer remained the factory blue while the center area was recovered with clear doped linen or else patched and painted the French Yellow color, so here is my take on that as well.  Still have to add a couple of CDL patches to the alierons as seen in photos. 




Offline davecww1

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Re: Nieuport 16 N.1208 Paul Pavelka N.124
« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2015, 07:50:17 AM »
One last photo for this week, here is an overexposed picture of the fuselage (forgot to turn off the cameras flash) but it gives a nice view of the seat and interior detail visible through the cockpit opening.