"NEW" 1/24th scale WWI kits from...

[RAGIII]

Just a question re the rumour/ suggestion the Merit kits could be upscaled from Roden or other models. What is this supposition based on?

I am aware Merit do armour kits so is there some contention they have done this with armour models?

My fear is if we say "up scaled clones" too often with zero evidence, then the rumour becomes accepted as fact, and that becomes a bad thing.

So I would like to hear some hard evidence of this allegation and if none if forthcoming would prefer to dwell on the positives- a model company is issuing a new range of 1/24th WW1 aircraft for which we should all be grateful. Finally, some 1/24th WW1 aircraft to sit alongside our Airfix and Trumpeter 1/24th superkits!


Dave Wilson
Gold Coast
Australia

Dave, As far as I know there is No "Merit" to the supposition at this time! So as you said Lets dwell on the Positive and let this go for now. That is exactly why as I stated, I reversed/recanted my previous statements. Looking forward to the New kits in an exciting scale!
RAGIII

[Dave W]

Thanks RAG III. I totally agree with you. Let's hope there's a great new world of `1/24th kits ahead for us all.

The Nieuport family alone would keep any manufacturer busy. I'm excited over a SE5a - my favourite WW1 aircraft- but a DR.1 and Spad are exciting too.

cheers

Dave Wilson
Gold Coast
Australia

[rowan broadbent]

Just a question re the rumour/ suggestion the Merit kits could be upscaled from Roden or other models. What is this supposition based on?

I am aware Merit do armour kits so is there some contention they have done this with armour models?

My fear is if we say "up scaled clones" too often with zero evidence, then the rumour becomes accepted as fact, and that becomes a bad thing.

So I would like to hear some hard evidence of this allegation and if none if forthcoming would prefer to dwell on the positives- a model company is issuing a new range of 1/24th WW1 aircraft for which we should all be grateful. Finally, some 1/24th WW1 aircraft to sit alongside our Airfix and Trumpeter 1/24th superkits!

Dave Wilson
Gold Coast
Australia

The idea that a Chinese-based model manufacturer might produce a less than adequately researched model or use other manufacturer's products as the "basis" for their own (with or without the original manufacturer's permission) is based on a deal of previous experience. If you are at all interested in the goings on in the modelling world, then you will be able to find your own examples.

The fact that all three of these subjects have previously featured in the Roden catalogue is a possible pointer that that may be the origin of these kits and the inclusion of the SPAD VII rather than the much more popular XIII in Merit's announced line-up would add weight to this speculation. Rick can, of course, recant from this idea if he wishes but for me it seems at the very least possible, if not probable. Obviously this is deduction and supposition only but if you seek to ban all speculation, then the world's modelling forums would be very quiet places. Rumour can only become fact in the face of concrete evidence. Dwell on positives all you want but I prefer to temper my expectations in the light of past experience.

It's a fundamental human trait to extrapolate from evidence - however limited - and if Merit prove to be the second coming in WWI modelling terms, I'll be as pleased as anyone (more so as it will open another avenue for after-market products) but please Dave, don't tell me that I cannot or should not speculate.

Rowan

[Modelnut]

Does anyone here have enough clout to request a test shot for preview when it comes available? That might help with all the speculation.

[Des]

I have already written to Merit International and requested any information or test shots of the upcoming 1:24 scale WW1 aircraft kits. Time will tell if I receive a reply but I will keep you informed of any developments.

Des.

[Modelnut]

Hopefully the will check out your website and forum and see the membership and visitor numbers and see what a following this genre has become.
Thanks for being on the ball Des!

[Rob_Owens]

     Even if the quality were "only" as good as Roden's, I'd spring for one of each, just for the novelty.
     Though the S.XIII might be more attractive to a wider audience, the S.VII and SE had many users, both during and postwar to make for many interesting schemes. I like cobbling together markings before the AM guys produce decal sheets, and 1/24 scale would  make it easier to do serial numbers, weight tables, etc, from commercial "rub-on" transfers.
     As for Des contacting Merit directly: Great Move methinks.  One would think that his website would me a MAJOR channel to the market, especially those who would wait for a review before purchase.
Saving pennies and ready to put more on ebay,
Rob

[Kai]

Just a question re the rumour/ suggestion the Merit kits could be upscaled from Roden or other models. What is this supposition based on?

I am aware Merit do armour kits so is there some contention they have done this with armour models?

My fear is if we say "up scaled clones" too often with zero evidence, then the rumour becomes accepted as fact, and that becomes a bad thing.

So I would like to hear some hard evidence of this allegation and if none if forthcoming would prefer to dwell on the positives- a model company is issuing a new range of 1/24th WW1 aircraft for which we should all be grateful. Finally, some 1/24th WW1 aircraft to sit alongside our Airfix and Trumpeter 1/24th superkits!

Dave Wilson
Gold Coast
Australia

The idea that a Chinese-based model manufacturer might produce a less than adequately researched model or use other manufacturer's products as the "basis" for their own (with or without the original manufacturer's permission) is based on a deal of previous experience. If you are at all interested in the goings on in the modelling world, then you will be able to find your own examples.

The fact that all three of these subjects have previously featured in the Roden catalogue is a possible pointer that that may be the origin of these kits and the inclusion of the SPAD VII rather than the much more popular XIII in Merit's announced line-up would add weight to this speculation. Rick can, of course, recant from this idea if he wishes but for me it seems at the very least possible, if not probable. Obviously this is deduction and supposition only but if you seek to ban all speculation, then the world's modelling forums would be very quiet places. Rumour can only become fact in the face of concrete evidence. Dwell on positives all you want but I prefer to temper my expectations in the light of past experience.

It's a fundamental human trait to extrapolate from evidence - however limited - and if Merit prove to be the second coming in WWI modelling terms, I'll be as pleased as anyone (more so as it will open another avenue for after-market products) but please Dave, don't tell me that I cannot or should not speculate.

Rowan

Chinese companies operate to a different set of corporate rules to normal. They have been known to think nothing of copying existing designs, from cars to phones to aeroplanes. Anything that sells.

As Rowan said, it's not difficult to see stories of Chinese model manufacturers starting up from nowhere with kits that share amazing similarities to existing kits from other manufacturers. So when a manufacturer comes from nowhere with large scale WWI kits of models - all of which are in existence already, albeit in a smaller scale - it's perfectly reasonable to speculate based on some very solid previous experience of how Chinese companies operate. I'd be amazed if they were anything other than upscaled Roden kits, perhaps with a bit of adjustment & some PE chucked in.

[Dave W]

Rowan and Kai make very interesting points and I'll admit up front I was not that aware of the extent to which some Chinese "entrepreneurs" may freely adapt Western designs and issue them as their own products.

That said, and if we accept for the sake of debate that the forthcoming new Merit WW1 kits might be based on Roden kits- here's the moral quandary facing us all. Do we refuse to buy the kits because they may infringe copyright? Or do we buy them knowing this must impact on potential sales of Roden's 1/32 kits? ( even though the new kits are a different scale).

There is no easy or simple answer to that one given there are no 1/24th scale WW1 kits around. Mainstream model companies have largely abandoned WW1 subjects apart from token releases ( Wingnuts are not included in this statement as they are wholly WW1), so should we embrace any manufacturer even if the kit's provenance is dodgy or frown and refuse to support any form of plastic piracy?

I honestly don't know the answer to that but my preference would be for Airfix to launch a range of 100% original 1/24th scale WW1 subjects I would buy every one of them.

Dave Wilson
Gold Coast
Australia

[mike in calif]

A personal factor for me is that the initial releases are somewhat generic WWI planes. If these turn out to be simple scaled up versions of 1/32 planes, (Rodens name has been dropped) then we'll see a Pfalz, DH-2 and a Sopwith tripe, amongst others. Those ought to be interesting in 1/24th scale.

[RAGIII]

Rowan and Kai make very interesting points and I'll admit up front I was not that aware of the extent to which some Chinese "entrepreneurs" may freely adapt Western designs and issue them as their own products.

That said, and if we accept for the sake of debate that the forthcoming new Merit WW1 kits might be based on Roden kits- here's the moral quandary facing us all. Do we refuse to buy the kits because they may infringe copyright? Or do we buy them knowing this must impact on potential sales of Roden's 1/32 kits? ( even though the new kits are a different scale).

There is no easy or simple answer to that one given there are no 1/24th scale WW1 kits around. Mainstream model companies have largely abandoned WW1 subjects apart from token releases ( Wingnuts are not included in this statement as they are wholly WW1), so should we embrace any manufacturer even if the kit's provenance is dodgy or frown and refuse to support any form of plastic piracy?

I honestly don't know the answer to that but my preference would be for Airfix to launch a range of 100% original 1/24th scale WW1 subjects I would buy every one of them.

Dave Wilson
Gold Coast
Australia

Dave, glad to see you are willing to look at the perspective Rowan put forward. The Moral quandary is indeed interesting. IF for instance I was aware of Someone selling Knockoffs of Rowans Decals, Aviattics Products, Taurus , etc. I would not only refuse to purchase but would
certainly inform the ORIGINAL MANUFACTURER! Now for a little Digression. Hobby Craft released a SPAD XIII in 1/32nd scale that is Largely based on the DML 1/48th molds. Take a close look and you will see what I mean. I can think of no one who has boycotted the Hobbycraft kit. Is it the mind set of they are "BIG BOYS", let them sort it out? Finally, If the kits prove to be "Enlarged" Roden kits I must admit I will purchase them, or at least any that are amongst my favorites. In closing I should mention something I learned while in the Hobby Business. The Korean Mold Makers popular in the 80s/early 90s had a different perspective. They felt that no matter what company commissioned the molds, the actual Maker /cutter of the molds was the OWNER. This kind of explains the Whole Hobbycraft, DML, Academy thing. JMHO,
RAGIII

[rowan broadbent]

Hello Dave,

I think, as Rick so ably points out, the choice is very simple, provided that we have the facts. Unfortunately there are a great many modellers who's choice is driven solely by price and / or availability and who are perfectly content to buy a kit based on pirated intellectual property (read: laser scanned parts designed by another company and used without their consent) without the slightest qualm and certainly no moral compunction at all. The same attitude is out there with downloadable copies of pirated Windsock Datafiles from different sources, to give one particularly nasty example. We really should not stand for it.

But the important part is whether we have the facts and these can sometimes be difficult to be sure of. It will be pretty clear when these kits arrive if they are clones of the already existing Roden kits, the question then becomes one of whether the cloning was done with the agreement of Roden (in this particular case).

Having dug about a little, it seems that Merit is apparently based in California. That being so, I'd be fairly confident that they won't be party to any illegal copying. Let's see what develops but I'm quite clear that it is fair to raise this cautionary note without pre-judging the situation, given past cases.

[macsporran]

Anybody else pondering the irony of a company called Merit who might be copying another manufacturer's WWI model aircraft patterns?

I'm old enough to remember finding J&L Randall' s 1/48 Merit kits way back in the early 60s and wondering at their similarity to the Aurora offerings. Only later did I learn that they really were indeed rip-offs.

Wonder if the owners of the present day Merit have a sense of humour!
Sandy

[Des]

I have written to the company for the second time, I hope they are not another of those companies who don't answer emails like so many others I write to for information. I only wrote to them last night so I will give it a few days.

Des.

[jamieg]

Are you folks certain that the Chinese manufacturers actually had no permission to do knock offs? It would seem to me that it would be relatively easy for a large model company to block the sales of 'pirated' kits outside of China. Remember, these are not being sold through shady street corner vendors but major model distributors. If Trumpeter (a company frequently cited on the internet for this) really started by illegally copying Tamiya kits, could Tamiya not have shut them down? If major distributors were contacted and asked not to carry these items would they have defied Tamiya? It seems unlikely. Could it not have been a case of a new company trying to get off the ground simply asking Tamiya if it was okay to do copies of their kits? If Merit wants to do WWI kits, could they not have contacted the original manufacturer of the kit for permission(assuming that they are in fact scaling up someone else's kit)?