Author Topic: 1:32nd scale RAF BE2c  (Read 11381 times)

Offline Mike Norris

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1:32nd scale RAF BE2c
« on: April 16, 2022, 07:27:35 AM »
Hi all,
My build of the Fokker D.VI is nearing completion.
Therefore I thought I'd have a crack at one of the 'Lukgraph' model in my stash.
I'm going to have a crack at the resin and 3D printed 1:32nd scale RAF BE2c model.

The subject aircraft has been changed - see the current aircraft further down in this thread.

Mike
« Last Edit: May 07, 2022, 12:36:48 AM by Mike 'Sandbagger' Norris »


Retired - 27 years RAF service then 20 years Military Aerospace Technical Author/editor.

Offline KiwiZac

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Re: 1:32nd scale RAF BE2c
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2022, 08:48:31 AM »
I'm excited and ready, Mike. Good luck!

Offline RAGIII

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Re: 1:32nd scale RAF BE2c
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2022, 12:20:44 PM »
I am looking forward to this one as always Mike!
RAGIII
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Offline Alexis

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Re: 1:32nd scale RAF BE2c
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2022, 08:47:16 PM »
I'm with Rick !  :)


Alexis
Hurra ! , Ich Leben Noch
Body and life is a vessel we use to travel the planet . Femininity is the gift , The miracle comes from what we do with it .

Offline Mike Norris

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Re: 1:32nd scale RAF BE2c
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2022, 07:34:37 AM »
Hi all,
Whilst compiling the basic PDF build log for this model I've already made a few observations:

Care should be taken when working with parts of the model cast in resin, as in dust form and if inhaled, is dangerous to your health.
It is becoming more common for model kit parts to be produced using 3D printing. Whilst this can be a good thing for modelers, it does present some differences to ‘normal’ kits:

   The modeler has less to actually build and therefore ‘assembles’ the model rather than ‘build’ the model, which some may find detracts from the challenges of, for instance,
   building an engine from separate parts instead of having a completed 3D printed engine.
   Care needs to be taken when separating the individual parts from a combined 3D print, as each part requires cutting away from its support structure without damaging the part.
        The part would then require sanding to remove any print ’tags’. Also the more fragile parts could be easily damaged during separation or subsequent handling.
   Sanding away surface striations (layers of the 3D print) and subsequent painting will be difficult on complete and complex printed parts, such as the engine.
   Although reinforcing rods are moulded internally within the wings, axle and struts, additional support is required for locating some parts. For example:
       The lower wings have a single reinforcing rod moulded internally within the wing, intended to prevent lateral warp of the wing. However, although the instructions
      show that two locating rods are required to locate the wings into the fuselage, the wings have no locating rods fitted and there are no guide marks for drilling the
      location holes in either the wings or the fuselage. Although the rod is supplied, care is needed to do this to avoid misalignment of the lower wings to each other and the fuselage.

Building this model should not present major problems for the average modeler, but care and attention will be required, particularly regards providing adequate
support for the larger and heavier resin parts, especially the lower wings.

Mike
 
« Last Edit: April 18, 2022, 08:18:23 PM by Mike 'Sandbagger' Norris »


Retired - 27 years RAF service then 20 years Military Aerospace Technical Author/editor.

Offline KiwiZac

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Re: 1:32nd scale RAF BE2c
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2022, 08:12:05 AM »
Thank you for these initial thoughts Mike, they're very helpful to know.

Offline Mike Norris

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Re: 1:32nd scale RAF BE2c
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2022, 07:13:29 PM »
Hi all,
I was thinking about modern day kit production methods.
First off I don't want to be too contentious on this subject.
One off the major costs of producing a model kit in styrene is the cost and time involved in creating the injection/slide moulds.
The retail cost of kits depended largely on this, so it was no surprise that the more finely detailed and complex kits cost more.
I think even the initial cost of some of the early 'Wingnut Wings' kits was higher than expected due to this.
Then we have resin kits, which traditionally cost more than styrene kits due to the manufacturing methods used.
The techniques of creating the moulds differed to that for styrene moulds and I assume the cost of resin was higher.
However we are now seeing more 3D printed parts being created, either by individuals or by manufacturers, such as 'LukGraph'.
This brings me to my thinking.
The initial cost of setting up suitable 3D printing equipment is probably high, but not as much as the cost of creating injection/slide moulding tooling.
The larger and less complex model parts are moulded and it's the intricate, smaller and more complex parts (a major cost in injection tooling) that are 3D printed.
Once the kit parts have been created in CAD etc and test prints carried out, production of identical parts can be started at the cost of materials only.
Also, 3D CAD designs are quicker and easier to modify to create other versions of those model parts.
There is no doubt in my mind that kits from 'LukGraph' and 'CSM' have filled the gap left by the demise of 'Wingnut Wings', both in quality, presentation and subject matter.
However, I assume that for most modelers, much of the satisfaction in modeling is in the challenge of building assemblies, such as the engines, rather than just adding 3D assemblies.
Even though the cost of living generally keeps increasing, I can't help wondering why part moulded and part 3D printed kits cost as much as they do?
My thoughts are that the more a kit is 3D printed, the less production costs are involved and therefore in theory, the retail prices should be lower than they are.

As I said I don'y want to be contentious - just the thoughts of one modeler among many   :)   

Anyway, first up will be the engine.
As you can see the complete engine is 3D printed, with probably only ignition leads to add.
So in theory just separating the five parts from their supports, removing any residual support tags and sanding away any obvious layer striations.
We'll see  ;)

Mike

« Last Edit: April 18, 2022, 08:15:13 PM by Mike 'Sandbagger' Norris »


Retired - 27 years RAF service then 20 years Military Aerospace Technical Author/editor.

Offline KiwiZac

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Re: 1:32nd scale RAF BE2c
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2022, 03:47:02 AM »
Thanks for outlining your thoughts Mike. Regarding cost I'm inclined to agree - perhaps it all comes down to labour when it's one person (I believe)?

However, I assume that for most modelers, much of the satisfaction in modeling is in the challenge of building assemblies, such as the engines, rather than just adding 3D assemblies.
For my part sometimes yes - for example I look at New Airfix and Eduard kits and want to build them for the kit itself - but my overriding aim is to have a decent representation of a particular airframe so my choice of kit is often based on that end. When it comes to an aircraft like the BE.2f the one I'd like to build is a restored, flying original so is special to me and therefore demands as much detail as possible.

Offline Beto

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Re: 1:32nd scale RAF BE2c
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2022, 03:55:11 AM »
I think the reason for the high cost of 3D printed parts is... time. The average resin printer nowadays offer a printing surface of 15x7 cms, give or take. And the printing time depends on the z-axis measure, since that dictates the numbers of layers that are needed to finish the part.  From my own calculations only four, maybe six, engines can be fitted in the printing surface, and they will require about 14 hours to print. So in order to produce a decent number of kits you need... more printers. Ant that means more money.

I also think it would have been wiser to produce the engine as individual parts to ease cleaning and painting. Recently I sent some forum members a few Renault V8 engines (very similar to the RAF 1a) and they were split into separate cylinders, magneto, engine block, sump and front gear cover, and admission pipes. See the scratchbuilt BE2A and Be2C projects at the correspondent section...

Offline Mike Norris

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Re: 1:32nd scale RAF BE2c
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2022, 07:35:13 PM »
Hi Beto,
Yes you are probably correct regards printing times involved.
I would think 3D kit manufacturers print sufficient stock (including pre-orders) to cover the release date for the kit.
Then kits after that are printed to order, rather than creating stock that is not being sold.

You are obviously more knowledgeable than me regards 3D printing, something I've considered.
Do you have links to your creations and their use in models?

Mike


Retired - 27 years RAF service then 20 years Military Aerospace Technical Author/editor.

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Re: 1:32nd scale RAF BE2c
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2022, 10:33:42 PM »
Mike, that is a very interesting new project! Following.

With injection moulding, the mould is extremely expensive, production is cheap. You have the development effort in any case, but you have to spread the costs over a smaller series in case of resin.
I think the resin is also not cheap, also the UV one for direct printing.
A normal casting can be manufactured faster, but you need also replace the silicon moulds from time to time.
With direct 3D printing, each piece is a prototype and unique. The machine costs (incl. wear parts such as foil) must be covered by the few printed parts. So there is no decrease with higher volumes.

Cheers,
Frank

Offline Beto

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Re: 1:32nd scale RAF BE2c
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2022, 01:25:23 AM »
Hi Beto,
Do you have links to your creations and their use in models?

Mike

Hugh (hrcoleman66) has printed a Renault V8 engine from my files for his 1/24 B.E.2c project - see thread here: https://forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com/index.php?topic=12870.0

I also sent a couple of 1/32 printed engines to Stephen (Lone Modeller) for his B.E.2a but he decided to go the hard way and scratch build the engine by himself. Brave man!  :)

And probably the most well known of the parts I have designed are the almost complete inner structure for the WNW Fokker D.VII that is sold by Aviattic - https://www.aviattic.co.uk/store/p280/Shapeways_3D_Printed_1%2F32_Fokker_DVII_parts.html

Offline Mike Norris

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Re: 1:32nd scale RAF BE2c
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2022, 01:44:58 AM »
Hi all,
The engine is completed as far as possible.
I've added the ignition leads and support rails, even though in reality the leads passed through the internal engine firewall.
As expected, painting a complete 3D printed engine wasn't that easy.
Sanding any print layer striations is not really possible on such detail.
I've not fitted the exhaust manifolds yet as I want to align them correctly to the exhaust stack pipes and fuselage later in the build,

Mike







Retired - 27 years RAF service then 20 years Military Aerospace Technical Author/editor.

Offline Alexis

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Re: 1:32nd scale RAF BE2c
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2022, 01:56:02 AM »
Nice work Mike


Alexis
Hurra ! , Ich Leben Noch
Body and life is a vessel we use to travel the planet . Femininity is the gift , The miracle comes from what we do with it .

Offline Mike Norris

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Re: 1:32nd scale RAF BE2c
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2022, 01:58:58 AM »
Hi Beto,
Do you have links to your creations and their use in models?

Mike

Hugh (hrcoleman66) has printed a Renault V8 engine from my files for his 1/24 B.E.2c project - see thread here: https://forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com/index.php?topic=12870.0

Hi Alberto,
So you're the one who designed the Fokker D.VII structure!!
I didn't know but congratulations on such a complex print design.
One of the most challenging but satisfying builds I've done.

https://mikesww1aircraftmodels.com/fok7strip.htm

I've looked at your designs and they are exquisite.
I wonder if I could ever reach such standards  :-\

Mike



I also sent a couple of 1/32 printed engines to Stephen (Lone Modeller) for his B.E.2a but he decided to go the hard way and scratch build the engine by himself. Brave man!  :)

And probably the most well known of the parts I have designed are the almost complete inner structure for the WNW Fokker D.VII that is sold by Aviattic - https://www.aviattic.co.uk/store/p280/Shapeways_3D_Printed_1%2F32_Fokker_DVII_parts.html


Retired - 27 years RAF service then 20 years Military Aerospace Technical Author/editor.