Author Topic: Early SPAD XIII Question  (Read 2314 times)

Offline RAGIII

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Early SPAD XIII Question
« on: July 18, 2021, 12:20:52 AM »
Looking through the Roden directions I noticed that they do not have the Modeler open the hole for the vented "filler" cap on the right fuselage side near the cockpit. The cap is very prominent and easily seen on late models protruding through the fuselage. Looking at photos of Early SPADs' I see no evidence of the cap. So My guess is that the tank was filled inside the cockpit , at least on early models? If so then there seems to be No Need for the pipe fitting leading from the tank to the upper fuselage on early models.

Any thoughts?? Wild Guesses??
RAGIII








PS: Photos on page 5, 6, 7 and 10 in the Data File show good shots of the right side and lack of the protruding cap.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2021, 02:01:24 AM by RAGIII »
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Offline RAGIII

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Re: Early SPAD XIII Question
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2021, 02:14:58 AM »
I pulled this from Bing Images so if any copyright is violated I will remove.

Further illustration of the Lack of the Protruding cap mentioned.



One More same thing about source and copyright:



 With No protruding cap is the pipe from the tank to the upper fuselage even there? My WAG is Not!
RAGIII

PS: The second photo is the only one I have seen with the Louvered side panel not in place on an early SPAD XIII
« Last Edit: July 19, 2021, 02:33:50 AM by RAGIII »
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Offline Mike Norris

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Re: Early SPAD XIII Question
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2021, 06:08:51 AM »
Hi Rich.
I think you are correct in that the SPAD VII did not have the vented fuel filler to the right of the cockpit.
All of the photographs I've seen have no filler at that location.
The main fuel tank was placed in the fuselage under the pilot's seat, and an auxiliary tank in the upper wing, which was filled through a filler cap on the wing (next to the cooling system expansion tank /filler).
This tank supplied fuel through a pipe inside the central fairing forward from the cockpit.
The fuel tanks had a total capacity of 135 liters.
Unfortunately there's not much detailed information of the SPAD VII cockpit or fuel system.

As you pointed out the SPAD XIII has the vented fuel filler cap.
If you use the following link, it'll take you to a 360 degree scroll around the cockpit of a SPAD XIII (using your mouse).
There you can clearly see the fuel filler and pipe leading to the engine fuel pump.
I'm guessing the pipe had a T-piece connection to the main fuel tank.
Along side the pipe you can see the oil tank and its filler cap and associated pipe work.

http://www.nmusafvirtualtour.com/cockpits/EY_tour/EY-7.html

As the SPAD VII doesn't appear to have such a visible fuel filler, I'm guessing Roden based there detail on the SPAD XIII cockpit detail.
Including what they thought was a combined fuel pipe and oil tank filler??
I suppose it's possible the main fuel tank on the SPAD VII was filled from fuel supplied through pipework from filling the upper wing auxiliary tank?
If it was me I'd discard that part as being suspect SPAD XIII.
It's your call though,

Mike 


Retired - 27 years RAF service then 20 years Military Aerospace Technical Author/editor.

Offline RAGIII

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Re: Early SPAD XIII Question
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2021, 06:53:22 AM »
Thanks Mike but we are looking at photos and instructions of Early SPAD XIII's Not SPAD VIIs. I greatly appreciate your time, effort,  and answer,  but the issue and question remain as to why this vented filler is not seen on the Early SPAD XIII.
RAGIII

PS: Is it "possible" that the early XIII used the same set up as the VII and that tank wasn't present at all?
« Last Edit: July 19, 2021, 07:36:31 AM by RAGIII »
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Offline Mike Norris

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Re: Early SPAD XIII Question
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2021, 07:47:14 AM »
Hi Rich,
My mistake  ::)
However, the SPAD XIII would have been a development of the SPAD VII.
So in theory, if the SPAD VII did have their main tank filled via the auxiliary tank, then possibly the early SPAD XIII aircraft would have had the same, before the standard filler was introduced.
Still your call  ;)

Mike


Retired - 27 years RAF service then 20 years Military Aerospace Technical Author/editor.

Offline RAGIII

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Re: Early SPAD XIII Question
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2021, 07:52:50 AM »
Hi Rich,
My mistake  ::)
However, the SPAD XIII would have been a development of the SPAD VII.
So in theory, if the SPAD VII did have their main tank filled via the auxiliary tank, then possibly the early SPAD XIII aircraft would have had the same, before the standard filler was introduced.
Still your call  ;)

Mike

Thanks Mike. So to be clear "IF" the Early XIII had a similar system to the VII then the Tank next to the pilot would "Most Likely" Not be present? By the way, I found a photo in the Osprey SPAD XIII aces book on page 7. It says it is an "Early" Bleriot built XIII. It is a closeup of the cockpit area including the pilot in the cockpit. It shows a cap that looks like a Lawnmower filler cap, almost flush mounted. So a possible progression in the design  8)
RAGIII
RAGIII
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"Don't slop it on" Lynda Geisler

Offline Mike Norris

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Re: Early SPAD XIII Question
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2021, 08:07:20 AM »
Hi Rich,
Yes, but it's supposition on my part as I don't have evidence this was the case.
I have that photo and it does look like the later SPAD XIII fuel tank vented filler, although it is partially obscured by the wing strut rigging fittings.
The plot thickens  :-\

Mike


Retired - 27 years RAF service then 20 years Military Aerospace Technical Author/editor.

Offline Europapete

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Re: Early SPAD XIII Question
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2021, 08:17:49 AM »
Hi Rick. Sorry for the delay, just seen your post. Yes, you are correct. I just dug through all I have on Spads and it would appear the early 13's had the same filler system as the 7. As you know, the fuel tank forms the lower curved section of the fuselage between the rear U/C legs. The tank was filled from within the cockpit, at the cap you have arrowed. This was rather inconvenient, so the designers eventually came to their senses and installed an extension tube to the fuselage surface. A design office guy was probably told to fill one up and so had to actually use his own design and realised how stupid he was.So, for a 7 or early 13, cut off the section you have circled flush with the central cap tube and you will be good. Sorry, but I could not find a switch over date/production number for the change over.  Regards, Pete in RI
« Last Edit: July 19, 2021, 08:47:42 AM by Europapete »

Offline Europapete

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Re: Early SPAD XIII Question
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2021, 08:44:40 AM »
Another modification on the later 13's was to add additional fuel piping from the tank to the engine to improve fuel flow during dives and high G turns. But this will not be seen on a 1/32 model. Also of note is the addition of the plywood extensions to the rounded wingtips to square them off before production caught up with the change. The RFC refused to fit these as it was thought that they might break off and cause damamage to the wings or jam the ailerons.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2021, 08:49:09 AM by Europapete »

Offline kensar

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Re: Early SPAD XIII Question
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2021, 08:50:31 AM »
Due to the size of the tank this vent/filler goes to, I suspect it is an oil tank.  The fuel tank is on the bottom of the fuse and another in the top wing with a water tank for the cooling system.  I have read that the back of the engine has pumps for all three liquids - the fuel was pumped from the bottom tank to the top tank, then drains to the engine.  It appears there is an oil line from the bottom of the oil tank to the pump on the back of the engine, with a return line back to the top of the oil tank if the engine can't take all the oil.  A second line returns from the engine back to the bottom of the oil tank.  The oil tank would have to be vented in order for it to drain out properly.
At least, this is how I interpret the main pipelines visible in the cockpit.  Regardless of what the lines were for, I am just replicating what I can see in photos found from various sources.

Offline Europapete

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Re: Early SPAD XIII Question
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2021, 09:31:03 AM »
Hi Kensar, the oil fill cap and tank vent cap are in the front of the engine bay. The two caps can be seen in front of, and between, the machine gun muzzles. Regards, Pete in RI.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2021, 09:40:55 AM by Europapete »

Offline Europapete

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Re: Early SPAD XIII Question
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2021, 09:40:07 AM »
The small fuel tank in the top wing was a gravity feed tank for the engine in case the main tank system was damaged and lost pressure. It had it's own filler cap above the wing. The other one was, as Kensar said,  the header tank for the radiator. It too had a filler cap and vent above the wing.

Offline Europapete

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Re: Early SPAD XIII Question
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2021, 11:12:30 AM »
Ths oil tank is in the engine bay I believe. Will recheck to confirm.

Offline RAGIII

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Re: Early SPAD XIII Question
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2021, 11:44:46 AM »
Pete,
Thanks for your input and research. I think I will do as you suggest and just cut off the pipe at the source. It is interesting that Roden seems to have caught some details all other companies missed yet missed on some very obvious things like the "Photo" panel on the left side. Swallow an Elephant and Choke on a Flea  8)
RAGIII
« Last Edit: July 19, 2021, 12:29:28 PM by RAGIII »
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Offline kensar

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Re: Early SPAD XIII Question
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2021, 09:18:34 PM »
Thanks for the info, Pete.

Clearly, Roden was aiming for doing multiple versions of the SPAD when the tooling was created and one just has to do their own research.
I have seen pictures of the later SPADs with the photo panel on the side and a panel on the bottom with a hole for the camera lense, but Roden didn't do the bottom panel.  Seems a bit strange.