Paint and biplanes. Does the wood remain visible under the paint?

[nannolo]

I intend to paint the wooden fuselage of the red albatross by Manfred von Richthofen. Until now I have always built canvas biplanes and this is the first time I make a wooden biplane. I have a doubt ... Initially the albatros came out of the factory in polished natural wood. So they were often repainted with the colors of the pilot. In this case under the red would it be correct to see the grain of the wood or at least leave it perceptible? On some biplanes the black crosses remained visible under the red. Or was the paint over a layer of primer? Or was he covering enough to prevent the wood grain?
Looking at some photos you can see the difference between the metal bonnet and the wooden fuselage, but I can't decide how to get this effect.
thank you for any suggestions you can give me

[RLWP]

Interesting question. I think I'd go for slightly different shades and textures on the wood and canvas parts. I don't think I'd try and do the wood finish underneath - too hard for me!

Richard

[Dave Brewer]

Varnished plywood would be smooth and take paint well after a light sand at most,if any woodgrain was visible the finish would have had to have been badly degraded by exposure to the elements and not maintained,so I guess it depends on the state of the particular airframe at the time of repainting,but I'm not sure that deterioration to that level would have been commonly seen.
Cheers,
Dave.

[Borsos]

This is mainly a question of your personal taste and Interpretation. It is simply impossible to tell such details for sure due to the problem with b/w photos of the time and in general respectively and due to the lack of real knowledge regarding the used paints, varnishes and thinners of 1914-1918. When it comes to early Jasta 11 colors, it is commonly assumed that the used red color was of very low quality and allowed at least the markings to show through (that’s visible on photos). But it’s not possible to tell that for sure regarding the wood grain. A model is always an interpretation of the real thing and if you‘d like the effect of, e. g. slightly shining-through woodgrain under a thin coat of red paint, then go for it. Why not? For sure there will be „experts“ at every model show that will call your model wrong, but they’ll be there anyway  . No one can proove you wrong, that’s all one can say...
Andreas

[RLWP]

Varnished plywood would be smooth and take paint well after a light sand at most,if any woodgrain was visible the finish would have had to have been badly degraded by exposure to the elements and not maintained,so I guess it depends on the state of the particular airframe at the time of repainting,but I'm not sure that deterioration to that level would have been commonly seen.
Cheers,
Dave.

Maybe I'm wrong, I think the OP is suggesting you might see the patterning in the underlying wood rather than the surface texture

Richard

[Dave Brewer]

Yep,I realised that later on,I think I must be suffering from tunnel vision after hundreds of hours sanding wooden boats.As usual I think Andreas is on the money with his comments.
Cheers,
Dave.

[RLWP]

hundreds of hours sanding wooden boats.

OK, I've lost interest in model aeroplanes - tell me about wooden boats! I had the pleasure to meet some wooden speedboats under restoration recently

Richard

[Dave Brewer]

Just another off and on hobby I fell into about 20 years ago when I stumbled on an amateur wooden boatbuilding magazine in a newsagency-I discovered a whole esoteric new world and have built 6 craft from canoes to a 14' plywood clinker sailing skiff since,and have accumulated plans for another half dozen or so(a BIG danger,just as in kit collecting).Paradoxically,I do have an old 15' plastic powerboat for fishing that requires no maintenance and is just about unbreakable,but I would like to build a timber replacement at some point.It's possible to build lighter,stronger and cheaper in ply/timber epoxy composite than fibreglass or plastic production boats and there's a huge range of plans with the amateur in mind out there.

[Bughunter]

The same question is also valid for overpainting of lozenge.
I think it depends on the color, if it contains white, it will be opaque. So less shining through. Darker colors, like the already mentioned red or blue may not opaque.
I used this on my models, so I put lozenge decals below the blue on my Leusch Fokker. I used also Alclad for metal parts versus primer, to have a different behavior of the top paint, for example on my red Pfalz. You can also try to use different primer colors below a common top paint to simulate that effect.

Cheers,
Frank

[nannolo]

sorry if I didn't explain myself well. English is not my first language
my idea was to paint the wood and then cover it with red.
I did tests.
First I painted the wood grain with photo-etchings from rb productions. Generally I prefer to do it by hand but, having to cover it up, I think it's okay anyway.



I tried using different shades of brown, then I sprayed on the orange clear

so I used the red mix indicated by wnw.
the effect is seen but not excessive


then I wanted to use an even darker brown. It is not the typical color of the albatros but it allows me to use the red more quietly and to let the wood grain remain evident



having to use the clear tamiya and the washes, the effect will be partially attenuated
I will do a little more testing but I think I can find my way on this path.

[RLWP]

Hmm, I'm not sure yet - I would want to see the model jet finished before judging

 

Seriously, that's very effective - nice work

Richard

[Robin]

That's pretty awesome.....subtle, but noticeable.

Robin 

[Borsos]

That’s how I thought you wanted to go... and I for myself really like the outcome.
Andreas

[Dave Brewer]

 That's very useful information,thanks for showing us your results.

[AndRoby67]

Hi nannolo!
You put an interesting and old question, many modellers debate this during the years.
In my life I came across restoration of the Ansaldo A.1 Balilla held in Bergamo, I remember well that woodgrain of the single wooden sheet that covering fuselage side disappeared under the coat of dark protective coating. When you stand up 2 metres away from the fuselage you can't see woodgrain.
So, in my opinion representing woodgrain in scale is a mistake. If you take "scaled" woodgrain (decals, etched etc.) and give them a 1:1 reality, I think there is no that kind of wood in nature.
On the other side, depends on the nature of the paint that mechanics used. Black crosses under red paint are visible, also in 1:1 you need 2/3 hands of paint to cover black with red. Albatros used a light combination of wood/protective covering so, and this will be my way if I will build one, no woodgrain visible under Jasta 11 red.
Sometimes I think that modelling was crossed with "artistic way of modelling" and visible woodgrains is one of the case. Of course, everyone of us can decide in freedom what "style" is good for his modelling, this is "my two cents".
Ciao!
Roberto