forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com
WW1 Aircraft Modeling => WW1 Aircraft Information/Questions => Topic started by: nannolo on October 24, 2019, 11:18:01 PM
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I intend to paint the wooden fuselage of the red albatross by Manfred von Richthofen. Until now I have always built canvas biplanes and this is the first time I make a wooden biplane. I have a doubt ... Initially the albatros came out of the factory in polished natural wood. So they were often repainted with the colors of the pilot. In this case under the red would it be correct to see the grain of the wood or at least leave it perceptible? On some biplanes the black crosses remained visible under the red. Or was the paint over a layer of primer? Or was he covering enough to prevent the wood grain?
Looking at some photos you can see the difference between the metal bonnet and the wooden fuselage, but I can't decide how to get this effect.
thank you for any suggestions you can give me
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Interesting question. I think I'd go for slightly different shades and textures on the wood and canvas parts. I don't think I'd try and do the wood finish underneath - too hard for me!
Richard
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Varnished plywood would be smooth and take paint well after a light sand at most,if any woodgrain was visible the finish would have had to have been badly degraded by exposure to the elements and not maintained,so I guess it depends on the state of the particular airframe at the time of repainting,but I'm not sure that deterioration to that level would have been commonly seen.
Cheers,
Dave.
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This is mainly a question of your personal taste and Interpretation. It is simply impossible to tell such details for sure due to the problem with b/w photos of the time and in general respectively and due to the lack of real knowledge regarding the used paints, varnishes and thinners of 1914-1918. When it comes to early Jasta 11 colors, it is commonly assumed that the used red color was of very low quality and allowed at least the markings to show through (that’s visible on photos). But it’s not possible to tell that for sure regarding the wood grain. A model is always an interpretation of the real thing and if you‘d like the effect of, e. g. slightly shining-through woodgrain under a thin coat of red paint, then go for it. Why not? For sure there will be „experts“ at every model show that will call your model wrong, but they’ll be there anyway :) . No one can proove you wrong, that’s all one can say...
Andreas
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Varnished plywood would be smooth and take paint well after a light sand at most,if any woodgrain was visible the finish would have had to have been badly degraded by exposure to the elements and not maintained,so I guess it depends on the state of the particular airframe at the time of repainting,but I'm not sure that deterioration to that level would have been commonly seen.
Cheers,
Dave.
Maybe I'm wrong, I think the OP is suggesting you might see the patterning in the underlying wood rather than the surface texture
Richard
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Yep,I realised that later on,I think I must be suffering from tunnel vision after hundreds of hours sanding wooden boats.As usual I think Andreas is on the money with his comments.
Cheers,
Dave.
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hundreds of hours sanding wooden boats.
OK, I've lost interest in model aeroplanes - tell me about wooden boats! I had the pleasure to meet some wooden speedboats under restoration recently
Richard
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Just another off and on hobby I fell into about 20 years ago when I stumbled on an amateur wooden boatbuilding magazine in a newsagency-I discovered a whole esoteric new world and have built 6 craft from canoes to a 14' plywood clinker sailing skiff since,and have accumulated plans for another half dozen or so(a BIG danger,just as in kit collecting).Paradoxically,I do have an old 15' plastic powerboat for fishing that requires no maintenance and is just about unbreakable,but I would like to build a timber replacement at some point.It's possible to build lighter,stronger and cheaper in ply/timber epoxy composite than fibreglass or plastic production boats and there's a huge range of plans with the amateur in mind out there.
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The same question is also valid for overpainting of lozenge.
I think it depends on the color, if it contains white, it will be opaque. So less shining through. Darker colors, like the already mentioned red or blue may not opaque.
I used this on my models, so I put lozenge decals below the blue on my Leusch Fokker. I used also Alclad for metal parts versus primer, to have a different behavior of the top paint, for example on my red Pfalz. You can also try to use different primer colors below a common top paint to simulate that effect.
Cheers,
Frank
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sorry if I didn't explain myself well. English is not my first language
my idea was to paint the wood and then cover it with red.
I did tests.
First I painted the wood grain with photo-etchings from rb productions. Generally I prefer to do it by hand but, having to cover it up, I think it's okay anyway.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48963819553_61104106e4_b.jpg)
I tried using different shades of brown, then I sprayed on the orange clear
so I used the red mix indicated by wnw.
the effect is seen but not excessive
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48964549522_914f0bd704_b.jpg)
then I wanted to use an even darker brown. It is not the typical color of the albatros but it allows me to use the red more quietly and to let the wood grain remain evident
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48964549042_e92dfcd967_b.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48964548807_814c491497_b.jpg)
having to use the clear tamiya and the washes, the effect will be partially attenuated
I will do a little more testing but I think I can find my way on this path.
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Hmm, I'm not sure yet - I would want to see the model jet finished before judging
;D
Seriously, that's very effective - nice work
Richard
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That's pretty awesome.....subtle, but noticeable.
Robin :)
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That’s how I thought you wanted to go... and I for myself really like the outcome.
Andreas
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That's very useful information,thanks for showing us your results.
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Hi nannolo!
You put an interesting and old question, many modellers debate this during the years.
In my life I came across restoration of the Ansaldo A.1 Balilla held in Bergamo, I remember well that woodgrain of the single wooden sheet that covering fuselage side disappeared under the coat of dark protective coating. When you stand up 2 metres away from the fuselage you can't see woodgrain.
So, in my opinion representing woodgrain in scale is a mistake. If you take "scaled" woodgrain (decals, etched etc.) and give them a 1:1 reality, I think there is no that kind of wood in nature.
On the other side, depends on the nature of the paint that mechanics used. Black crosses under red paint are visible, also in 1:1 you need 2/3 hands of paint to cover black with red. Albatros used a light combination of wood/protective covering so, and this will be my way if I will build one, no woodgrain visible under Jasta 11 red.
Sometimes I think that modelling was crossed with "artistic way of modelling" and visible woodgrains is one of the case. Of course, everyone of us can decide in freedom what "style" is good for his modelling, this is "my two cents".
Ciao!
Roberto
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I agree that the choice of effect is a personal one. The solid colour is probably more "scale accurate", but the visible woodgrain under the paint looks so cool! Nannolo has really nailed the effect, well done. Regards,Pete in RI
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Well, I can confirm that the visibility of the woodgrain depends on the kind of protective cote they used:
If protecting wax (ceralacca) or a clear dope was used to protect the wood, the veneers is visible even from a long distance,
while if the wood was treated with a dope mixed with powder (a sort of putty) and then dyed the veneeer disappears and the result is a rather solid chocolate brown.
The restoration of the Balilla does not count here (I contributed to that restoration while in Turin), as it was more a renewal than a restoration/preservation.
I'm attaching some pictures of the SVA preserved at Vigna di Valle so that you can have an idea based on evidences
As for the Fokker wood wings, based on some high resolution photos that I inspected while in Vienna, I strongly support the idea that the wood veneer was visible under the dyed (green and red colourized dope), the way it is in the replicas built in vienna lately.
Hi nannolo!
In my life I came across restoration of the Ansaldo A.1 Balilla held in Bergamo, I remember well that woodgrain of the single wooden sheet that covering fuselage side disappeared under the coat of dark protective coating. When you stand up 2 metres away from the fuselage you can't see woodgrain.
So, in my opinion representing woodgrain in scale is a mistake. If you take "scaled" woodgrain (decals, etched etc.) and give them a 1:1 reality, I think there is no that kind of wood in nature.
On the other side, depends on the nature of the paint that mechanics used. Black crosses under red paint are visible, also in 1:1 you need 2/3 hands of paint to cover black with red. Albatros used a light combination of wood/protective covering so, and this will be my way if I will build one, no woodgrain visible under Jasta 11 red.
Sometimes I think that modelling was crossed with "artistic way of modelling" and visible woodgrains is one of the case. Of course, everyone of us can decide in freedom what "style" is good for his modelling, this is "my two cents".
Ciao!
Roberto
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well,the veneer disappears when the quality of the photo is lowered as the interpolation tends to blurry everything
here are some high quality (not original quality) pictures of the SVA:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/8oMnz2SgT1WEG3G1A
er me
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What that does show is the ply used to build aeroplanes was fine grained from slowly grown timber, so it usually doesn't have a dramatic grain structure
Using modern examples, like this:
(https://cdn.ajferguson.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/thumbnail/700x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/b/i/birch_17.jpg)
Not this:
(https://www.a1building.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/shutply-ce-18-600x600.jpg)
The first is good quality, close grained. The second is shuttering grade, very cheap and hard to do quality work with
As modellers, we like those dramatic grains because they look great. You really wouldn't want to build an aeroplane with them
Richard
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Hi!
As usual, everyone came with its own impression...
I agree with Richard above about quality of wood / veener.
@ermeio: so we may had a live meet in Turin in ex-Revelli factories? Nice to meet here you again.
I mentioned the Balilla because I was involved in the restoration of a fuselage wooden aircraft. Does not count here?
In the photo of the SVA in Vigna I see "different shade of brown". Again, you must to reduce them in scale.
So, this is one of the arguments that everyone have its feelings/impressions/historic researches.
As usual, every modeller stay in his points of view and for the new one there is one way only: read the answers and "decide" what's yours.
Happy modelling to everyone!
Roberto
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Hi!
As usual, everyone came with its own impression...
I agree with Richard above about quality of wood / veener.
@ermeio: so we may had a live meet in Turin in ex-Revelli factories? Nice to meet here you again.
I mentioned the Balilla because I was involved in the restoration of a fuselage wooden aircraft. Does not count here?
In the photo of the SVA in Vigna I see "different shade of brown". Again, you must to reduce them in scale.
So, this is one of the arguments that everyone have its feelings/impressions/historic researches.
As usual, every modeller stay in his points of view and for the new one there is one way only: read the answers and "decide" what's yours.
Happy modelling to everyone!
Robert
hi Rob
actually we had more than one live meet while studying in Rome, at san Pietro in Vincoli
a long long time ago, the times of Contatto!
greetings
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The time of "...Contatto!" seems one era ago!
I was involved in the team that restored the Balilla by Alberto Casirati, one of the best WWI airplane modeller ever!
And in "...Contatto!" too...I was with Alberto one of the "editor".
Really many years ago...
Thank you for the memories!
Roberto