Barker's Snipe an imposter?

[garfield]

I'm currently building the Wingnut Snipe kit and have been having a good look at the fuselage in the Canadian War Museum. Going by photos of the aircraft after it was recovered from the front, it is clear, the aircraft had a grey nose and cabane struts. The fuselage in the museum is all green. (PC-10?). It looks like a re-paint to me and a pretty neat one at that. Yes, there are post-war shots of Barker sitting in this artifact but what evidence is there that this is indeed the original fuselage and not the remains of one that was no longer on strength of the Canadian Air Force?
Has anyone done a very close examination of the artifact to determine it is what we think it is?
Garfield

[RLWP]

Hi Garfield and welcome to the forum

You may be expecting the impossible here. The attitude towards what is a museum exhibit has changed massively over the years. Today we aim for high standards of authenticity, historical record and preservation. Back in in 1920s people would be looking to see what Barker's plane looked like, and they wouldn't want to see a scruffy example - that would be disrespectful. So whatever was preserved would be stripped, cleaned, assembled from good parts then painted up and put on show. No-one was going to check if the paintwork was right for any particular date

You see the same thing with preserved steam locomotives here in the UK where they were put back through the workshops before being preserved. The works would choose the best bits to assemble a loco for the museum. For instance, I do wonder if there is anything of the original 'Flying Scotsman' in the current locomotive

Museums are subject to fashion as much as anything else humans do

Will you be doing a build thread on your Snipe?

Richard
Richard

[lcarroll]

   I am neither a Historian, Museum Curator, nor an expert on aircraft finishes but I have "laid hands" on Snipe E-8102's fuselage at the Museum. Almost 2 years ago myself and four other members of this Forum met in Ottawa and visited the Canadian War Museum, the highlight for me being to see the Barker relic. I was surprised to find it within easy reach of the Public and was able to examine it in detail and within inches. I can assure you the "green" (actually a "PC-10ish") finish is an over paint, close examination shows traces of grey underneath on the seams and in a few chaffed or cracked areas. I am told it has since been moved well out of reach behind a barrier to keep clowns like me at arm's length! As to it being from a different Snipe there are photos of the fuselage standing on it's nose propped in a corner of the older Museum/storage facility and later on in earlier displays.....I believe it is indeed the genuine item. I am sure the Museum Staff could verify a "chain of possession and authenticity" through Museum Records/Archives, don't forget the world of academics and historians takes a very dim view of assumptions and misrepresentations!
   Richard is spot on in his comments regarding refurbishment of museum pieces, at least at the CWM; we were privileged to closely examine the work being done on their (original!) Fokker D.VII, acquired from the USA and being completely re-built there. Every inch has been painstakingly cleaned, re-done where necessary, and put back to "mint" condition. The standard of work is exceptional from welding to paint and everything in between.
    Here's the link to the short article  Chris Johnson did in "Time to Relax" here on our visit, several good photos of the Snipe in the latter part of the article.

http://forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com/index.php?topic=6304.0

    We are meeting there again at the end of this coming September , I'll be sure to try to get a few close ups of the paint scheme. In the interim I look forward to seeing your Snipe Build, it's a magnificent Kit!
Cheers,
Lance
   

[garfield]

Thank you for your quick responses! This little journey of mine started with trying to seek the 'holy grail'- the 'true', nature of PC-12. Having been familiar with the artifact since childhood, I never questioned the colour. My friend Tony Bell pointed out that the artifact was repainted-look at the original photos dummy! Duh... (My words not his.) A frantic call resulted with me requesting of Mike Blecher that he marches right down to the museum, as he lives in Ottawa and request a thorough examination including paint removal of a small sample section, forensic examination, blood splatter patterns, search for bullet fragments, etc., etc.  I haven't heard a response.

Plan B- my thirteen year old niece texted me that she was about to go into the War Museum with her class as she was on a school trip to our nations capital. She has big, killer brown eyes so I told her to go up to the curator, lock on and drill him with the statement "I believe that this artifact is not the original PC-12 but is in fact, a re-paint!". This didn't go over well as the tour guide just blinked and looked back her with a blank look. Seems to me a more serious approach is in order!

So the question remains, is there original paint below the surface? Why are there no bullet holes or even evidence of repairs considering the terrible, extensive injuries received by Barker? Lance, I am very interested in meeting up with you in Ottawa in September. I'm sure the museum will be uninterested in a destructive test of a fabric sample but examination with a good light under the watchful eye of a  trained curator may be welcome. Let me know if you want to exchange contact information off-board so we can arrange a meeting.

As for my Snipe, I will be posting the pictures upon completion as I'm writing an extensive article on the build. Up to now, I've been posting my articles on Hyperscale where you can see some previous builds.
Happy WW1 modeling!
GI

[RLWP]

and request a thorough examination including paint removal of a small sample section, forensic examination, blood splatter patterns, search for bullet fragments, etc., etc.

<snip>

Happy WW1 modeling!
GI

That would be reasonably easy in the UK. All you would have to do was submit a research project and stump up the cash for a suitably qualified researcher and museum supervisor, and a publication plan. What would that cost - £20K?

Richard

[garfield]

Crowd funding anyone...? No...okay, back to the model airplane building!

[Carpo]

On the topic of Snipes and PC-12, I recall a post by Ronny Bar (I think) and the citing of PC-12 in the WnW instructions. He (or whoever it was) retracted the PC-12 suggestion stating that it should definately be PC-10 - I have just finished my own snipe and was trying to find this retraction - does anyone else recall it?

Carpo

[garfield]

Hmmm...I went ahead and painted my snipe, my interpretation of PC-12. It's based on a mix of burnt sienna + black with a a bit of blue and yellow as modifiers.
I hope Barker will approve as a good attempt!
GI

[boggie]

Good looking Snipe Garfield. I like your PC-12 colour too.
I hope we're going to see more of this one. 

[Carpo]

Your snipe looks fine! It looks brown - with hints of green - does that make it PC-10? Who knows? When you play around any where in the browny green spectrum you can't really go wrong. Until someone develops a working time machine, we are stuck!

[garfield]

That's about it. I'm just making a big, fat guess at it. I always mix my own colours and this was made using Tamiya FX-68 Nato Brown+ black and a touch of yellow and white. The first two colours was what was described in an article I read on one of our website sources. As for the addition of yellow and white, that's just me. I'll take a shot of it beside my SE which is my interpretation of PC-10. As an illustrator, I'm always making up witches brews for paints.
We definitely would put a time machine to good use!
GI