Author Topic: WNW Pfalz DIII  (Read 6367 times)

Offline Kampf doppeldecker

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WNW Pfalz DIII
« on: May 28, 2014, 08:23:20 PM »
Hi All
Some of you may have seen my post over on the 'great war in the air forum' entitled 'Pfalz DIII upper wingtip geometry'.
This explained the unfortunate error in the shape of the upper wingtips of WNW's model, also lower wingtips, although I didn't go into the latter in any great detail.  As it turned out, this information was apparently perhaps not fully understood as the post generated virtually no response.
As I am considering purchasing the WNW kit, I wonder if any Pfalz afficionado out there has done an in depth check of the basic accuracy of the kit using available info, all usual stuff, checking aerofoil sections using Baubeschreibung co-ordinates, stagger, wingspan, gap etc. I don't want to fork out £50 plus only to be faced with endless accuracy issues. Any help would be appreciated. If something as obvious as the upper wingtip shape was missed then perhaps there are shortcomings elsewhere.
Cheers Al.

Offline uncletony

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Re: WNW Pfalz DIII
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2014, 08:49:38 PM »
Baubeschreibung co-ordinates? What the heck is that? Never heard of it. Google has failed me.

Also, would it be too churlish to point out WNW's model depicts a D.IIIa;)

Offline RAGIII

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Re: WNW Pfalz DIII
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2014, 09:13:18 PM »
Not a Pfalz expert by any means so I can't help much. As there are no surviving originals one can only base opinions from drawings and photos(As far as I know). It might be helpful if you posted your findings on the wing tip geometry here. IIRC your contention is regarding the taper towards the tips?
RAGIII
"A man has to know his limitations": Harry Callahan

"Don't slop it on" Lynda Geisler

Offline Kampf doppeldecker

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Re: WNW Pfalz DIII
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2014, 09:30:32 PM »
Hi Bo,
Used 'DIII' generically. The 'Baubeschreibung' was a basic aircraft spec. issued by Idflieg. Examples are dotted around the Datafile series, there's one in the latest DIII one published a few years back. Satisfyingly, the aerofoil co-ordinates contained in the report on Hecht's DIII agree very closely with the ones in the Baubeschreibung.
It would seem an obvious thing that a kit manufacturer would try for an accurate aerofoil section but the upper wingtip (and lower) issues in the WNW - and all other DIII/a kits, does raise doubts. The WNW kit could be the basis for an accurate replica, it's certainly the 'best of the bunch'.
However, the wingtip thing, as mentioned, does give cause for concern, if this can be missed what else is wrong?. As I say, £50 is no mean sum. Looking at the kit on the net there are several areas for concern, amongst other things the front U/C strut seems to be raked too far forward, too 'straight' under nose profile, should have a very slight curve, although not as much as in the Datafile drawings.  Also, the tailplane was fabric covered on the DIIIa, not ply as in most kit reps (all)
Outline accuracy is 'the' aircraft, many years ago this seemed to be important, I recall 'Scale Models' magazine getting 'hot and bothered' over the odd millimetre!. Sadly, it seems concern for basic accuracy has taken a back seat to 'after market' goodies and decals etc.
This is why I ask if anyone has had an in depth look at the WNW kit, again, any help would be appreciated,
Cheers Al.




Offline Kampf doppeldecker

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Re: WNW Pfalz DIII
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2014, 10:00:45 PM »
Hi Rag,
The issue is in the tip geometry, I went into the topic in detail 'over there' but it would seem they're temporarily offline.
When they're back on I'll transfer the thing verbatim over here.  Meanwhile, to summarise, the taper as represented in the WNW kit, and every other kit, is incorrect, 'starting' too far out towards the tip - we're talking upper surface taper at the moment. 'Droop' towards the tip commenced from the second rib out from the aileron root, this in a 'straight line' to the tip (at aileron L/E-aileron false spar area) , creating a drooped tip effect when viewed from the rear, very noticeable.  There was also an 'upsweep' to the tip commencing from the same point on the undersurface, this created Washout on the wingtip.  This upsweep on lower surface is again, visible in front views as a change in 'straightness' at aileron L/E- aileron false spar line when viewed from front.  Aileron trailing edge wasn't straight, but, for want of a better word 'interacted' with the tip geometry in Washing out towards the tip.  As I say the whole thing is clearer on the other forum, when they come back on line I'll transfer it.
Cheers, Al.


Offline Ian from Doncaster

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Re: WNW Pfalz DIII
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2014, 11:00:52 PM »
Hi Al,

A picture paints a thousand words - do you have any photos or drawings to illustrate your points?

Offline Kampf doppeldecker

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Re: WNW Pfalz DIII
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2014, 12:45:00 AM »
Hi Ian,
A picture does paint a thousand words. At work at moment. When i get chance I'll post the pics I posted 'over there' of my 1/72 Roden DIII which incorporated the mods mentioned. If you have access to the DIII/a Datafiiles there are a few photos which illustrate the point.
Cheers, Al.

mike in calif

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Re: WNW Pfalz DIII
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2014, 09:21:02 AM »
It sounds like you ought to scratchbuild the wing to get anywhere near the level of accuracy you want.

Offline RAGIII

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Re: WNW Pfalz DIII
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2014, 07:52:09 AM »
I guess the general rule here is How Bad do you want to build a 1/32nd Pfalz? It seems to me that correcting any probable MINOR issues would be far easier than Scratchbuilding a complete Pfalz DIIIa. JMHO. One thing I remember is that there is a bit of frame missing in the interior from the instrument panel down. I also seem to remember that the Cockpit floor should be curved vs. straight. In the end I don't think you will get any "Fatal" flaw thread going here so the choice will be yours to buy or not. I do think you should post your pictures relative to the wing tip geometry as I did find that very interesting in your original thread!
RAGIII
"A man has to know his limitations": Harry Callahan

"Don't slop it on" Lynda Geisler

Offline Kampf doppeldecker

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Re: WNW Pfalz DIII
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2014, 10:41:58 PM »
Hi Rag,
As I said, the WNW kit seems to be 'the best of the bunch' and obviously can provide the basis for a sound replica, nothing needed as drastic as a complete scratchbuild. Re 'Red Baron's' comment, I have no desire for complete accuracy, it's unrealistic and therefore, in my opinion unnecessary. We all adopt 'acceptable tolerances' for ourselves, for example, on 1/72nd aerofoil sections I work to, say, a 5 thou tolerance, I'd be prepared to accept the odd 1/4 mm in wingspan or fuselage length.
The incorrect upper (and lower) wingtip taper missed not only by WNW, but all manufacturers,  is a major inaccuracy as it is very obvious in any rear or rear 3/4 view, how it's been missed is baffling, it's as easy for a manufacturer to get it right as it is to get it wrong. All I ask for is a decent representation of the original,  what would Rudolf Geringer think!, poor old lad.
As Ian says, a picture paints a thousand words, I tried to post the pics that appeared in my post 'over there' but for some reason it wouldn't take them, file too large perhaps?.  As you say Rag a 'Fatal' thread would be a non starter, so there seems little point in duplicating my original post from the other forum, I'll stick with the pics and leave it up to the individual as to whether to incorporate or not.
I'd like to see the Tamiya treatment given to the Pfalz DIII, a '1/72nd Zero job', I have a sneaking feeling they just might get the wingtips right, without much effort.
Cheers, Al.
 

Offline uncletony

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Re: WNW Pfalz DIII
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2014, 12:24:11 AM »
I see what you are talking about now Al. It really is a rather glaring error. Once you see it it's hard to "unsee it"  :(

Well it gives us something to do, eh?

Offline bobs_buckles

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Re: WNW Pfalz DIII
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2014, 01:37:15 AM »
Not me, mate! It stays as it is!  ;D

VB



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Offline uncletony

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Re: WNW Pfalz DIII
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2014, 03:14:22 AM »
Hi Al,

A picture paints a thousand words - do you have any photos or drawings to illustrate your points?

this is what he's talking about... even more obvious from a straight rear aspect, WNW doesn't have such a photo on their site, but look in the Herris book for several examples:




compare to this lovely build (hope vB doesn't mind):






Offline drdave

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Re: WNW Pfalz DIII
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2014, 08:17:54 AM »
Well now I've seen it I'll bin mine and I encourage Bob to destroy his too.

It was bad enough having that half mm gap on the Junkers aileron. My enjoyment of the hobby is now  like ashes in my mouth.

There's too many stitches per rib tape too....

Offline nmroberto

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Re: WNW Pfalz DIII
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2014, 12:43:15 PM »
Well now I've seen it I'll bin mine and I encourage Bob to destroy his too.

It was bad enough having that half mm gap on the Junkers aileron. My enjoyment of the hobby is now  like ashes in my mouth.

There's too many stitches per rib tape too....

 ;D ;D ;D
Robert