Fokker DR.1 anomalies

[GrahamB]

Hi,

thought I might have a crack at my Roden 1/32 Fokker Dr.1 next - been sitting there for a number of years and now there is a a good replacement cowling available from The Aviattic.

I know that the streaking camouflage has been done to death in forums over the years - but I am least able to translate the three Methuen values of the olives from the preserved IWM material  into the likely original colours (decreasing the 'brown' content probably accrued from varnish aging) - see more if and when I get this model done.

My main query is actually on something that jumped out at me more than anything else but as far as I can see has never been addressed in discussions or represented on models or colour profiles:

In any number of photos - say in the Greg VanWyngarden Fokker Dr.1 Jagdstaffeln - my main reference - the lower surface of the discrete wing tips are much paler than the underside blue, even allowing for difference in illumination. There is a clear, unambiguous difference in tone, even wrapped around the leading edge (and the upper surface of the wing tips is often slightly paler than the fabric part of the wing). Sceptics might like to see that, where the entire underside has been repainted (Udet's 586/17), there is no such demarcation. Also, where the interplane struts are painted blue and in similar illumination, the tone is similar to the wing tips, not the undersides.

What is happening here? Are the wing tips made of pressed aluminium or wood? If so, my explanation would be that the interplane struts and wing tips show the original true pale blue paint whereas the linen undersides are darkened and 'browned' by application of varnish. This results in the turquoise colour - Methuen 25C5 - whereas the original was paler and more 'true-blue', probably of the order of Methuen  23B3 (also quoted for other types). There are a few photos that show the underside of ailerons paler than the main body of the wings - replacements or unvarnished for weight saving?

Any ideas?

Cheers,

GrahamB

[RAGIII]

Graham,
An interesting question. I will have to go through my other reference as well as looking at the GvW book. Photo numbers referring to those you spied would help. My first though is that the wing tips aren't either of your choices, just fabric covered formers but that is from memory and we know what that is like.... 
RAGIII

[GrahamB]

Hi RAGIII,

yes I should have mentioned the photos - but there are so many.

Here are the best:

page 3; no 14 page 5; B17, 4/1, 4/11 (for re-painted Udet), 5/2, 6/2, 6/16, 11/8,11/15, 11/26, 12/5, 12/15, 13/3, 14/31, 15/9, 19/3, 19/11, 19/15, 53/1.

In many, if not most these cases, the demarcation is hard, independent of illumination and often continues around the leading edge - not an lighting/photographic artifact. Something to do with both material and paint application different from linen undersides.

Cheers,

GrahamB

[Russell]

Graham,

I see what you mean. As you wrote, colours have been debated at considerable length. I don't have an axe to grind nor mind what colour anything is other than having a natural desire to make an attempt at doing what is 'probably' correct.

As regards construction of the wingtip, all the information I've seen (for what it's worth) indicates fabric stretched from the end wing rib over a curved horizontal 'tip' former. Some photos show the slightly concave surface associated with fabric used in this way.

With the exception of one photo - i.e. 12/15 (which I'll return to) I can't really see that the lighter tones you refer to are anything more than the effect of light on angled surfaces. The 'hard demarcation' mentioned also seems to be directly related to the rib & former structure beneath the covering on the tip.

Photo 12/15 does appear to show a possible exception to both of the above issues though. The leading corner of the tips on all three wings shows a far lighter shade with a very defined boundary which is the same on all three wings. As there's nothing in the structure of the tip (so far forward) to form a separate 'facet' which could potentially pick up a highlight it seems that the corners really are a lighter colour - one which possibly may carry on along the leading edge. Other photos of different aircraft show the same corners of the wing tips as picking up a similar highlight (e.g. 13/3 & B/30) but here the hard edge of the light area isn't apparent & it looks far more like a natural highlight fading out rather than any lighter paint.

If I was modelling the aeroplane in photo 12/15 I'm not sure which way I'd jump. As regards the original point of conjecture, I'll be painting the wing tips on my DR.I the same as the rest of the wing but as with so many issues of colour we have to follow our own 'feeling' & long may that continue as it adds to the interest.

Regards
Russell

[GrahamB]

Hi,

it is a bit of a puzzle but I can see that it may be just an effect of differing illumination on light blue paint - seemingly very sensitive to changes in incident light - direct or diffuse (i.e. reflected back from surroundings). The effect is so dramatic because there are sharp (albeit slight) changes in angle were the tip meets the main wing surface. Where the blue paint is exposed on leading edges to sunlight it also looks very light, out of sunlight it is quite dark (or darker than one might expect).

Oh well, one mystery probably solved.

Related perhaps: Did the Fokker Dr.1 have rib tapes? These are indicated on plans but they are damned difficult to spot in photos and the Roden kit lacks them.

Thanks for putting up with these ravings.

Cheers,

GrahamB

[uncletony]

Yes to rib tapes...

Mikael Carlsons Dr.I replica, considered pretty accurate I think:

[GrahamB]

Thanks Bo.

They're very subtle. I'll add some decal strips before painting.

Cheers,

GrahamB

[lcarroll]

Graham,
    Perhaps a little late to the party however I've taken a quick look in a couple of my Ref Books on your questions.
First, the van Wyngarden photo 12/15 which, at first glance is the only one I also thought to support your theory of a lighter colour then Undersurface Blue. The caption states that "some of the wing leading edges seem to be painted in a contrasting light colour". These bars or strips of color can be seen as clearly contrasting to the bulk of the wing undersurface colour, particularly on the mid and lower wing and at the wingtips in my copy. Rather then a third colour on the undersurfaces it would appear that these lighter areas were rather part of Jasta or personal markings applied.
   As for the construction of the wingtips Paul Leaman's excellent book on the DR.1 clearly illustrates the plywood formers that make up the wingtip frame shape which is then fabric covered, There are also several photos of a surviving tip frame from von Richthofen's 425/17 held at the Canadian Military Institute in Toronto Canada. My tripe has the "Turquoise/Light Blue undersurfaces to conform with the most popular theory on colouring of DR1's.
   Last, don't forget that the leading edges of the wings were plywood covered and would likely have a glossier finish then the fabric portions thus reflecting more light and appearing as a lighter tone.
  Hope this helps or is at least of some interest.
Cheers,
Lance

[GrahamB]

Thanks Lance, some useful pointers.


The wing tips also seem to be glossier than the rest of the wing and may also contribute to this effect. My premise was actually not that a different blue could have been used on the tips and struts but that it might not have needed any varnish top coat (tending to darken and 'brown' any finish below it) as on the linen surface. As the wing tips were linen covered it seems now may be this doesn't hold.

12/15 is something I missed in regard to the painted leading edges but 11/15 does not have this feature yet they are still light and show rapid fall-off in tone.

Interesting that in another example where the wings were entirely repainted, in red, as in photo 11/15 (425/17) the underside of the tips are darker than the the main wing surface. All very complicated.

Back to real modelling I think.

Cheers,

GrahamB

[lcarroll]

Not to worry Graham. I tend to leave the bench for the books and the Net often to wander down "Bunny Trails" such as this; it's fascinating and enjoyable stuff as long as you keep it all in perspective. I've said it many times here and elsewhere, there is no "one" answer to these questions and riddles now 100 years after the fact; the only thing we know for sure is...........were not sure! You`ve brought up some excellent points, beats another go around on the real colour of PC 10 and 12!!
Cheers,
Lance

[uncletony]

   Last, don't forget that the leading edges of the wings were plywood covered ...

I don't think this is quite correct.    Unless I am mistaken the leading edges had plywood under the fabric...

[RAGIII]

   Last, don't forget that the leading edges of the wings were plywood covered ...

I don't think this is quite correct.    Unless I am mistaken the leading edges had plywood under the fabric...

You are correct!
RAGIII

[lcarroll]

Bo, RagIII,
   Absolutely correct; I meant, as stated, that this area being covered differently (Ply and Fabric vs. Fabric only) might be "shinier" however just having thumbed through a couple of books I can't support that theory with examples.
   Oh well, as Graham says, "back to real modelling"!
Cheers,
Lance

[Kampf doppeldecker]

Hi Graham,
As Bo says, yes to rib tapes, also 'perimeter' tapes, i.e. trailing edge, ailerons & leading edge. Also wings were covered spanwise so, of course no chordwise fabric seams,
Cheers, AL.

[eindecker]

Please define "spanwise" and "chordwise". Thanks.