Author Topic: Snipe Color Confusion?  (Read 1855 times)

Online RAGIII

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Snipe Color Confusion?
« on: March 24, 2014, 02:04:18 AM »
I have been going on the ASSUMPTION that the Sopwith Snipe was doped in PC10 as the Data File Says. I guess for the first time I looked closely at the WNW directions and noticed that the reddish brown they show in their directions calls for PC12! My particular bird from 43 Sq. shows a VERY green fuselage denoting a fresh paint job(According to WNW) in PC10. so my question is:
 Is there  info that has come up since the Datafile was printed that suggests PC 12 as the correct color? Or is it like the Triplane unknown? All help or info will be appreciated!
RAGIII
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"Don't slop it on" Lynda Geisler

Offline davecww1

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Re: Snipe Color Confusion?
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2014, 12:33:39 PM »
Hi RAGIII, 
I'm no expert on the Sopwith colors, but know for sure that the fuselage of Barker's Snipe is still in a museum in Canada, and the photos that I have seen of it are definitely GREEN (PC10) not red brown (PC 12).  Whether or not this would have been the case with other Snipes I cannot tell you.
Dave

Online lcarroll

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Re: Snipe Color Confusion?
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2014, 10:08:24 PM »
Hi RAGIII, 
I'm no expert on the Sopwith colors, but know for sure that the fuselage of Barker's Snipe is still in a museum in Canada, and the photos that I have seen of it are definitely GREEN (PC10) not red brown (PC 12).  Whether or not this would have been the case with other Snipes I cannot tell you.
Dave
   


   I have not seen it personally (it wasn't on display last time I visited Ottawa) however I seem to recall a statement somewhere that the fuselage was/has been refinished. That aside, I'd support the PC10 theory.............
Cheers,
Lance

Offline Ernie

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Re: Snipe Color Confusion?
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2014, 11:46:59 PM »
Rick, I found this while scouring the web for something on the Snipe.
  I won't reproduce the photo here, but here's the link...

http://divot2.smugmug.com/Travel/Tour-Of-The-North/851309_D928Rv/39334029_wffkBxX#!i=39334029&k=wffkBxX

...looks pretty PC10ish to me. ;) ;D  Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Ernie :)
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Online RAGIII

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Re: Snipe Color Confusion?
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2014, 11:24:09 AM »
Hi RAGIII, 
I'm no expert on the Sopwith colors, but know for sure that the fuselage of Barker's Snipe is still in a museum in Canada, and the photos that I have seen of it are definitely GREEN (PC10) not red brown (PC 12).  Whether or not this would have been the case with other Snipes I cannot tell you.
Dave

Dave, Thanks for the input! I guess one still must deal with the "Chocolate" Color of PC10. Huntley said as the war progressed PC10 became darker and more brown.  ???
RAGIII

Hi RAGIII, 
I'm no expert on the Sopwith colors, but know for sure that the fuselage of Barker's Snipe is still in a museum in Canada, and the photos that I have seen of it are definitely GREEN (PC10) not red brown (PC 12).  Whether or not this would have been the case with other Snipes I cannot tell you.
Dave
   


   I have not seen it personally (it wasn't on display last time I visited Ottawa) however I seem to recall a statement somewhere that the fuselage was/has been refinished. That aside, I'd support the PC10 theory.............
Cheers,
Lance

Lance,
Thanks for your comment. I have decided that PC 10 is correct but..... We then get to that green vs. brown thing  ;D
RAGIII

Rick, I found this while scouring the web for something on the Snipe.
  I won't reproduce the photo here, but here's the link...

http://divot2.smugmug.com/Travel/Tour-Of-The-North/851309_D928Rv/39334029_wffkBxX#!i=39334029&k=wffkBxX

...looks pretty PC10ish to me. ;) ;D  Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Ernie :)

Ernie,
I appreciate your taking the time to look up that info! To me it is certainly PC10. Looks kinda brownish/green. but as we know there isn't any green in Chocolate  :o
RAGIII
"A man has to know his limitations": Harry Callahan

"Don't slop it on" Lynda Geisler

Offline davecww1

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Re: Snipe Color Confusion?
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2014, 01:22:44 PM »
Yes it looks like Olive drab to me, isn't that a mix of olive green and brown?
Maybe add a little more brown, I think the Mister Kit PC-10 is way too light.
Dave

Offline Nigel Jackson

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Re: Snipe Color Confusion?
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2014, 02:53:17 AM »
Hello Rick

Goodness me, don't you just love our hobby and the things that crop up! I have no specialist expertise but think I'd also go for something that began life as PC10.

What strikes me about the brilliant photo that Ernie posted and black and white images we see, is the apparent variation in colour after a short while in the field and on different surfaces. That in part lies behind my very high risk strategy of adding as carefully as I can very thin washes of panzer brown type colours. It can bring nightmares but even the light pooling that can sometimes occur can produce the slight variation I like, if carefully controlled

All that said, you have to go with what feels right for you.

Best wishes
Nigel

Offline Chip

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Re: Snipe Color Confusion?
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2014, 05:40:23 AM »
Hello RAGIII

Reading your post reminded me of something I'd read - it's from "Fighters 1914-1919" by Kenneth Munson and at risk of copyright infringement I quote part of the chapter talking about PC10:

“it’s natural pigments were natural oxide of iron(yellow ochre)  and lamp-black (or carbon black).. They were first mixed in a ratio of 25 parts yellow ochre to 2 parts lamp-black by weight of dry pigment-not such an unbalanced mixture as it sounds, since the yellow ochre weighed fairly heavily while the lamp-black was extremely light in weight. When mixed together these can only result in a darkish-brown shade. What has given rise to the “green” part of the description is that, for protective purposes, this dry mixture was intermixed with cellulose or oil varnish or some other glossy liquid medium, when a curious effect known as “green shift” takes place, giving the finished coat a tendency to look slightly greenish under certain lighting conditions”

Regards

Chris

Online Berman

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Re: Snipe Color Confusion?
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2014, 02:10:01 AM »
 I recall reading on Aerodrome Forum that at first PC-10 was formulated with British yellow ochre. This produced a color more towards the green shade. Later as supplies ran short, yellow ochre was imported from Spain. The Spanish yellow ochre produced a shade leaning more to the brown spectrum. Perhaps someone can pinpoint this Aerodrome info. It would be helpful to know the date Spanish yellow ochre was first used.

Offline rlrimell

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Re: Snipe Color Confusion?
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2014, 03:39:20 AM »
Hi Guys,

I am fairly certain that PC12 was not a reddish brown. This was a ghastly error I made years back and have tried to correct ever since. Sopwith drawings  for various machines cite PC12 as the colour of choice. As I understand form the late Bruce Robertson, PC10 tended to be more of a khaki colour, whilst PC 12 was browner, almost a chocolate.O

Offline Nigel Jackson

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Re: Snipe Color Confusion?
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2014, 04:44:34 AM »
Hello Ray

I'm  very much with you in terms of avoiding the reddish brown and more towards the chocolate - even if various factors may have led to some variation. As I posted somewhere else, the problem was picked up by my wife. When I was talking about this with her she immediately asked whether that meant milk or dark chocolate. In crude terms for a UK audience would that be Cadbury's dairy milk or Bournville?

Best wishes
Nigel
« Last Edit: July 28, 2014, 08:46:29 PM by Nigel Jackson »

Offline eindecker

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Re: Snipe Color Confusion?
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2014, 06:59:37 AM »
Now, that is an excellent question. Too often we make unwarranted assumptions, like the color of "chocolate" as discussed here.
Michael Scott
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Offline rlrimell

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Re: Snipe Color Confusion?
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2014, 02:39:21 PM »
Milk Chocolate would be the closest  one,

Cheers,

Ray R.

Dekenba

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Re: Snipe Color Confusion?
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2014, 08:23:56 PM »
The delights of British WWI camouflage discussion!