Weathering problems. Can anyone help?

[myotte]

First off, I am a huge fan of this site. Im still sort of new to modeling and am really only interested in ww1 planes so, this site obviously has helped me tremendously!

So here's my question, Im in the middle of my second ww1 plane model ( specifically, the WW Fokker E.III Late) and this time around I was looking to add some weathering to this one and trying to make it look a little more 'used'. It was my understanding (obviously after obsessively scouring the internet for hours) that as long as you are using enamels over top of acrylics, then you shouldnt have any problem with washes or other enamel based weathering tachniques. 

Heres my problem,  Im using Tamiya acrylics for the main paint job of the plane. I went to add some dirt streaks to the side with enamel paint and used just a tiny little bit of Testors Universal Enamel thinner on the brush to help make it look more... streak-y(?) and the Tamiya paint just started coming right off.  Now, of course, Im afraid to really do any washes or weathering to other spots because Im scared that Ill ruin it and have to start all over. Just as a test, I put a little bit of the Testors Enamel thinner on a paper towel and pulled out a piece of paint covered styrene that I used to test the airbrush mixes and rubbed on a spot that I new was long-dried Tamiya paint and again, the paint came right off.

Would anyone be able to tell me what I might be doing wrong?

[uncletony]

If you prime the plastic before applying acrylics, you should not have any problem using enamels over acrylics as you describe. White spirits will not dissolve cured acrylic paint. However, if the paint is not well bound to the substrate (the plastic in this case), then just about any liquid will probably take the paint off.

The classic test is the "fingernail test;" If you cannot remove the cured paint by lightly scratching with your fingernail, it is properly bound to the substrate. Mixing lacquer thinner with your first coat of acrylic will help it bite into the plastic and thus act as a primer. Subsequent coats can be thinned as usual. Tamiya rattle can primer is also good.

Your test card sprays may not behave like the paint on your model, unless you cleaned it to the same standard, applied the paint in the same way, etc. To me it looks like you are testing an area with an almost light overspray quality -- i.e. the paint went on on the dry side and thus didn't bite at all. When I am in doubt I prepare a dummy version of the part I am finishing to test this very kind of thing -- I use parts from the scrap bin for this. I go through all the steps I am planning to use on the model, including surface prep. & priming. If it works out ok on the test part I am confident to move on to the real thing.

If you are sure the test piece is analogous to the actual model, you could apply a couple of coats of Future or Tamiya clear first, that would seal it for sure. Then apply your enamel washes on top of that...

[myotte]

Thanks guys.

Bo- I tried the 'fingernail test' to both the model and my test styrene and it was solid on both. And I know I shouldve probably primed it first, but I had tried a primer once before and it was very thick. I grew leery of them because I didnt want to cover up any detail and havent used one since. Ill check into the Tamiya primer you mentioned. I also totally forgot about adding a tamiya clear coat before I did any of the weathering. I guess I just assumed it would be a problem. Lesson learned.

Red Baron - Im scared to try a wash with the Tamiya acrylics... I feel like it would dry too fast for me. Ill try your idea out on some scraps and see how it works.

Again, thanks guys. I appreciate the input.

[myotte]

Hmmm...I like the looks of those! I think that may be one of my next investments...

[uncletony]

You could also look into Flory's washes -- these are water based as well; like those mentioned above, if you don't like it you can wipe'em off and start over.

http://www.florymodels.co.uk/washes

But... regular white spirit enamel thinner should not attack Tamiya Acrylic that is properly applied and allowed to cure (2 days max). The nice thing about enamels over Acryl is that you can feather the effect to your hearts content, you have hours before it dries and the layers remain distinct (meaning you can wipe it off and start over.)

Bonus hint: if you can live with a little gratuitous cheesecake T&A, The Weathering Magazine is a treasure trove of techniques for weathering and effects. Each issue is devoted to a specific weathering theme (rust, mud, chipping, etc.) It is published by the AK / MiG guys and their products are featured prominently but it is not simply an ad for their stuff -- far from it. Available for download on iOS etc too.

http://www.pocketmags.com/viewmagazine.aspx?titleid=1453&title=The+Weathering+Magazine

[compressor man]

Myotte,
I have always applied a coat of Future over my paint and then put my wash over this and have never had a failure. However, I paint with enamels not acrylics but the paint thinner wash will readily dissolve my paint undercoat if I do not apply the Future between coats so I know that it is protecting my paint.
Chris

[myotte]

Compressor man ---- this is interesting because, honestly, I dont LOVE painting with acrylics. I dont mind airbrushing but hand brushing with Tamiya acrylics is atrocious. I would way rather use more enamels. Ive obviously seen Future being mentioned EVERYWHERE and have been curious to try it. I wasnt sure if thinner would dissolve it or not. Thats good to hear that it doesnt. Do you airbrush or just brush it on when you use it?

[compressor man]

Some people airbrush Future but many simply brush it on. A wide soft brush will lay it out nicely and it dries without brush strokes. I have not had an issue with thinner dissolving it and I use hardware store mineral spirits.
Chris

[Ernie]

I've used the Flory washes and the nice thing with them is if you aren't happy
with the results you just remove it and try again. There is no worry of ruining
your paint job. 

Cheers,
Ernie

[RAGIII]

Myotte,
I have always applied a coat of Future over my paint and then put my wash over this and have never had a failure. However, I paint with enamels not acrylics but the paint thinner wash will readily dissolve my paint undercoat if I do not apply the Future between coats so I know that it is protecting my paint.
Chris

I agree with this method! I use Oil Washes thinned with Testors Model Masters thinnwe and never had a problem!
RAGIII

[gcn]

I've used the Flory washes and the nice thing with them is if you aren't happy
with the results you just remove it and try again. There is no worry of ruining
your paint job. 

Cheers,
Ernie

I wouldnt say that was exactly true. I applied some wash to admittedly a not perfect gloss finish and I couldn't get rid of it and the model was binned.

I now use oil paints thinned with odourless thinner for a much more consistant result. The fundamental point in this thread is that enamels/oils shouldn't attack Tamiya acrylics.

[drdave]

I have been very impressed with the new Alclad smoke. It dries in seconds and has a bluey black carbon effect. I now use it for post shading and brush it on as a panel line wash or stain on small areas

I use Tamiya smoke or Gunze oil thinned with lacquer thinner to brush on oil stains etc

[rhallinger]

I have been very impressed with the new Alclad smoke. It dries in seconds and has a bluey black carbon effect. I now use it for post shading and brush it on as a panel line wash or stain on small areas

DrDave, do you use an airbrush to post shade with the Alclad smoke?  I assume so.  Thanks for the tip.

Regards,

Bob

[drdave]

Yes but you can brush it for small details with care. If it messes up, Q tip in thinner wipes it away.
On NMF I spray future over alclad, then use the alclad smoke tp countershade. Then finally I buff hard with a buffing stick, which smoothes and shines the NMF naturally, adds some realistic dings and chips and takes off some of the smoke so you get a pleasing patchy effect. Ill try and post some of my current build, an NMF arado, but I did it on the Spitfire I have on here.

Another trick with smoke is to use a post it as a mask on each stringer, then spray or smear up to the edge of it, then move it along to the next. It replicates the way the gubbins collects in the saggy bits. I have a Triplane on here somewhere I did that on the underfuselage.

[drdave]

http://forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com/index.php?topic=2445.0