Author Topic: Early Nieuport 11 - how transparent was the CDL?  (Read 259 times)

Offline NigelR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1452
Early Nieuport 11 - how transparent was the CDL?
« on: January 08, 2025, 02:26:15 AM »
I'm working on the CSM early Nieuport 11 and will be doing one of the CDL schemes. I know the white/cream and blue painted (and camouflaged) versions were introduced later in the series, my question is how transparent was the CDL on these early machines? I don't have many good quality photos of early Nie 11s but from what I can see, none have a transparent effect on the wings (where you can see the structure of the wing and the rib tapes through the wings). Also, there doesn't appear to be much (if any) difference between the linen parts and the plywood panels on the fuselage.

I've been trawling through various old threads on the Aerodrome and found one post which claimed "Early Nie 11's: CDL, Ecru, or an "egg custard" color or something along those lines depending on the state of yellowing of the varnish top coat. An off white when fresh, to a cream with time and UV exposure. Not at all translucent from new." Also, several threads talk about the "yellow" or "ecru" period of French finishes in 1916.

Based on what I can see from photos and some of the online discussion, I am tempted to keep the CDL finish fairly opaque on my Nie 11. However, I know we have some Nieuport experts on here (Xan, are you there..... ;)) so I would appreciate your thoughts on the CDL finish of early Nieuports. Any input gratefully received! Sadly I don't have Chassard's book on Nieuport colours and it is does not appear to be available any more.

(there was a link from the Aerodrome to a thread on this topic here from (I think) 2009, but the link is dead and I can't find the topic here anymore)

Online Borsos

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3446
Re: Early Nieuport 11 - how transparent was the CDL?
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2025, 02:46:01 AM »
I am far from being an expert, but I do have the book and will throw an eye into it as soon as possible. In fact I think the <<CDL>> was not clear dope and not opaque at all. I cannot remember having seen a photo of a single Nieuport 11 with a <<shine through>>-effect from roundels or whatsoever.
I am also at the beginning of the Nieuport and will do the cat  :)
"Deux armées aux prises, c'est une grande armée qui se suicide."
Barbusse.
"Ein Berg in Deutschland kann doch einen Berg in Frankreich nicht beleidigen. Oder ein Fluß oder ein Wald oder ein Weizenfeld."
Remarque.

Online DaddyO

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 820
Re: Early Nieuport 11 - how transparent was the CDL?
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2025, 03:54:55 AM »
Hi Nigel
Had a look through a couple of references and all the photo's of decent quality seem to show a pretty opaque finish without much transparency.
(Obviously in 1916 the French introduced their 'enduit metallise', but I thought that mainly for the later model 17 onward so probably not applicable in this case)

In the back of the Windsock Nieuport Fighters Vol 1 there is mention of a report in the USA C&C Journel Vol 20 No 1 (Spring 1979) by Bob Cavanagh. This report was by US officials visiting L'Escadrille Americane. The relevant bit is - 'Painting of Aeroplanes. Practically all aeroplanes sent to the front leave the factories painted one color - either aluminium color or light yellow'
This would seem to back up your impression of little difference between the fabric and wood or metal areas and could indicate a pigmented dope being used rather than the normal transparent with it's age related yellowing.

I'll see what else I can find in my references
Paul
There cannot be a crisis today, my schedule is full

Offline NigelR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1452
Re: Early Nieuport 11 - how transparent was the CDL?
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2025, 05:49:35 AM »
Thanks Andreas and Paul. Let me know what you find. I am currently likely to do a fairly opaque, yellowish finish.

There is an original Nie 11 in Le Bourget, see: https://www.museeairespace.fr/en/collections/nieuport-xi/  However, it has been restored and recovered. This is fairly transparent but I do not trust modern materials to accurately replicate the effect of materials from 100 years ago, because many of the harmful chemicals they used then are no longer allowed.

Offline MG

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 17
Re: Early Nieuport 11 - how transparent was the CDL?
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2025, 07:13:06 AM »
I know the Italian Nieuport 11 which, being initially supplied directly by the French company, have a very light straw yellow CDL which in period photos appears white. It does not appear shiny but opaque and in the wings in particular there does not seem to be transparency. This is clearly evident in the photos with a young lieutenant Francesco Baracca.








Photo with French nieuports:





CDL straw yellow


« Last Edit: January 08, 2025, 09:23:01 AM by MG »

Online Borsos

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3446
Re: Early Nieuport 11 - how transparent was the CDL?
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2025, 08:05:45 AM »
I went through Marc Chassards <<les enduits des Avions Nieuport, en 1916>> which contains English translations, and I will try to give a short summary of its content as far as I understand it:

- At first he underlines the difference between paint and dope. The last one was used to stretch the fabric, make it resistant and waterproof, elastic and stable against different environmental influences. Dope and fabric get a homogenous surface while paint does not and therefore can peel off easily.

- he mentions a horizon blue dope used on Nieuports X from 1915, which was not widely used.

- with the beginning of the Verdun battle, he says, Nieuport scouts were highly on demand and they should get camouflaged, mainly for low visibility when on the ground.  therefore upper wing roundels disappeared and the famous green-brown camouflage paints were introduced. These paints were  quickly flaking off, so several trials were made with tinted dopes:

- he mentions a white dope in this list that was used on Nieuports with 11xx serials like Victor Chapmans N1148 or probably N1132; this is documented for May/June 1916

- then he speaks of a white and aluminium dope that was probably a transition on the way to Aluminium dope; Maybe Nugessers N1109 was doped with it, but it is completely unknown if this dope was tested in the field at all.

- Aluminium dope was introduced in July 1916 and was finally used on all Nieuport scouts. It was maybe already tested in May 1916. So there were probably some Nieuport 11 that were doped in Aluminium, maybe N1109 was one of these planes.

- there was also a red-brown dope tested at the same time (May-July 1916), but it is also hardly known, maybe Nieuport 16 N1130 was doped with it.

- some Nieuports 11 of the 800 series appear on photos in a solid light color, like N823, N836 (Guynemer) and N889. It is neither known if this color was a paint or a dope, nor its exact shade, probably blue-grey

Finally he discusses the famous question if the green-brown camouflaged Nieuports that were spray-painted consisted of two, three or four colors. he discusses a color drawing by E.A. Shepard of N1136 from September 2, 1916 , that shows only two camouflage tones. Therefore he tends towards two tones and besides that underlines that from the 1200 series onwards the undersides of the wings and fuselage were painted light blue. Before they were left in CDL.

=> What he does not discuss at all is the translucency of CDL  Nieuports, he does not deal with CDL at all here.

But in his book <<Rene Dorme et Joseph Guiguet. La Guerre aerienne de deux as>> Marc Chassard  states on p. 167 that the first Nieuports, 10 and the first 11 built in 1915, were delivered in clear-doped linen.

So far so good, all of this is very interesting in my opinion, but does not answer the question about the translucency of this CDL.

So I came to a discussion on ?the aerodrome? from 2009:
http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51344

Here, a person called Raoul Lubliner tells the following:
<<Early Nie 11's: CDL, Ecru, or an "egg custard" color or something along those lines depending on the state of yellowing of the varnish top coat. An off white when fresh, to a cream with time and UV exposure. Not at all translucent from new. The fuselage outlining tapes, flying surfaces perimeter tapes, strut reinforcing tapes and the cabane and landing gear struts on these aircraft were painted the same blue/violet tinted gray as used on the pre-January 1917 French standard "Adrian Helmet" gray. (After January 1917, these helmets were painted a shade of blue known as "Horizon Blue.") This early Adrian Helmet blue/violet gray perimeter striping was later carried over to the camouflaged ships. >>

What irritated me was the <<blue/violet tinted gray>> as the horizon blue I thought to know had no violet in it. But this description fits quite well to the color used on de Roses Nieuport at LeBourget.


My working hypothesis is at the moment: Yes, the first Nieuports 11 were CDL and this was not translucent. I cannot say if this was caused by the character of the used fabric or because pigment (Ecru) was mixed into the dope. It should have had an off-white color when new and cream or straw yellow when aged. The edges were taped with tapes that had a horizon blue color, whatever its exact shade was.

I hope that helps.
Andreas

"Deux armées aux prises, c'est une grande armée qui se suicide."
Barbusse.
"Ein Berg in Deutschland kann doch einen Berg in Frankreich nicht beleidigen. Oder ein Fluß oder ein Wald oder ein Weizenfeld."
Remarque.

Online Edgar

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 159
Re: Early Nieuport 11 - how transparent was the CDL?
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2025, 04:30:20 PM »

Finally he discusses the famous question if the green-brown camouflaged Nieuports that were spray-painted consisted of two, three or four colors. he discusses a color drawing by E.A. Shepard of N1136 from September 2, 1916 , that shows only two camouflage tones. Therefore he tends towards two tones and besides that underlines that from the 1200 series onwards the undersides of the wings and fuselage were painted light blue. Before they were left in CDL.

=> What he does not discuss at all is the translucency of CDL  Nieuports, he does not deal with CDL at all here.


Now we know for sure, and Marc agrees that camo was 4 coloured one, not 2 like he thought before, so we did that with the latest Nie11, offering a 4 tone camo

Offline xan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 746
Re: Early Nieuport 11 - how transparent was the CDL?
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2025, 07:07:52 PM »
Indeed , new autochrome appears and close the discussions



Marc wrote  a paper about this discover in Avions n?256:



But this is not te original subject.
About Nieuport CDL, it was not transparent indeed IMO...







« Last Edit: January 08, 2025, 07:13:10 PM by xan »
"Zwei Armeen, die sich bekämpfen, sind eine grosse Armee, die Selbstmord an sich übt."
Barbusse.
"Une montagne en Allemagne ne peut pas offenser une montagne en France. Ou une rivière ou une forêt ou un champ de blé."
Remarque.

Offline NigelR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1452
Re: Early Nieuport 11 - how transparent was the CDL?
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2025, 07:52:38 PM »
Thanks so much everyone, you have confirmed my thought process. The good quality photographs really help. These show the CDL surfaces had very little transparency, and that rib tapes were not really visible, which implies the final coatings were very dense and likely had some form of pigmentation in them. This is very different to photos of Bristol Scouts, where in many you can see the transparent CDL effect on the wings and also the rib tapes on the upper surfaces are visible.

Regarding the four colour scheme (which I'll be doing for the late version), I always favoured the four colour scheme based on the first hand accounts in the Datafile Special on the Lafayette Escadrille. I recently bought the Chassard book on Dorme and Guiguet and the autochrome of Chaput's Nieuport 11 confirmed the four colour scheme for me. So when I read in the CSM instructions that Marc Chassard also now thinks this, it was finally confirmed.

Excellent work by Edgar to get Marc to comment on the colour schemes in the CSM instructions. 

Offline MoFo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 121
Re: Early Nieuport 11 - how transparent was the CDL?
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2025, 02:20:00 AM »
Here, a person called Raoul Lubliner tells the following:
<<Early Nie 11's: CDL, Ecru, or an "egg custard" color or something along those lines depending on the state of yellowing of the varnish top coat. An off white when fresh, to a cream with time and UV exposure.

How much is this actually the case, though?  There's a bit of a trope about military vehicles' paint changing dramatically over time, but... what time?  Most were only in use for a few weeks or months and were obsolete within a year.  Sure, there might be the odd squadron hack that lasted longer, but that's not the kind of subject that most modellers build - we tend to stick to famous subjects from famous pilots, who were typically given the newest and best equipment.  How much change would realistically occur within such a short span of time?

Online DaddyO

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 820
Re: Early Nieuport 11 - how transparent was the CDL?
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2025, 01:27:03 AM »
Just came across an old Windsock article (Vol 5 No 1) about French camoflage colours which has a section on the Pre-camoflage 'yellow' (Editors quotation marks not mine)
It describes the 3 main periods for French colours. Roughly the 'clear dope period' 1914 - mid 1916, The 'yellow' period from mid - 1916 to early 1918 and the 'eduit metallise' camoflage period.

For the early period a lot of aircraft were covered with fabrics with additives such as ruberising solutions which gave a variety of brown and biscuit shades right through to mid and quite dark greys. Eventually rubberised fabrics were replaced with plain material and the French adopted the practice of over painting the dope coats (used to shrink the fabric) with a coat of fatty varnish in linseed oil. The result was to slightly darken and enrich the yellowish shade which gave the appearance of a light yellow.

Unfortunately the fatty top coat wasn't a success and had the habit of cracking and flaking off from the cellulose underneath. It is probable that there was some experimentation and the remainder of the yellow period may have included machines painted with aluminium powder added as well as an earlier scheme that involved plain yellow being added to the fatty varnish in an effort to get it to adhere better.

Incidentally adding aluminium powder doesn't result in a metallic shade, but a solid opaque colour and is a trick I've used sign writing when using yellow to make it more opaque  ;) (Normal yellow paints have very poor covering power)

Colour wise the article suggests anything from a warm rich egg yolk colour through beige to a whitish yellow so take your pick  ;D

Paul
There cannot be a crisis today, my schedule is full

Offline NigelR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1452
Re: Early Nieuport 11 - how transparent was the CDL?
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2025, 05:06:40 AM »
Thanks Paul, excellent additional info.

Online Borsos

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3446
Re: Early Nieuport 11 - how transparent was the CDL?
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2025, 07:04:55 AM »
That really rounds up this very informative topic here, Paul. Thank you also from my side. Marc Chassard also states that even Guynemers horizon blue N836 was not spared from flaking off <<vernis gras>>like the fatty varnish was called in French. A photo confirms that this actually looked like chipping paint.

Xan, Edgar, so it is four colors. Another great information  :)
« Last Edit: January 11, 2025, 07:20:09 AM by Borsos »
"Deux armées aux prises, c'est une grande armée qui se suicide."
Barbusse.
"Ein Berg in Deutschland kann doch einen Berg in Frankreich nicht beleidigen. Oder ein Fluß oder ein Wald oder ein Weizenfeld."
Remarque.

Online WD

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1291
Re: Early Nieuport 11 - how transparent was the CDL?
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2025, 06:36:40 AM »
This thread is just one reason among many I love this forum and its inhabitants.  ;D

Warren