Author Topic: Gotha cammo question  (Read 1731 times)

Offline zavod44

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Gotha cammo question
« on: January 07, 2013, 09:16:35 AM »
Okay, as some of you know I am new to WW I aircraft.  I have some questions.  Let me set up the whole scenario...I have the WNW Gotha.  I am really in love with the purple and blue.  I was all set to do "Morotas".  However I just got the Pheon decal set.  There are two different sets on that sheet that are for blue/purple planes.  Originally (a year ago) one of those airplanes, "Lori2" was shown as a LVG built plane in Blue and purple.  Now that it came out, the actual sheet shows it as a Gotha built, just plain blue paint scheme.  I have heard one of the guys at WNW had info that changed "Lori2" to a Gotha built.  I'm wondering what that info was.  Are there more pictures of "Lori2" Also can a Gotha built plane be blue and purple?  I want to make things as accurate as possible but it seems like those photos of "Lori2" are very hard to see exactly what it is painted like.  As I said I would really like to do a blue and purple plane.  Did Gotha paint dark planes in two colors?  Did they only paint blue and no purple?  Just trying to figure out what I'm gonna do...before I get to far.  Can anyone shed light on this?

Brian




Offline zavod44

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Re: Gotha cammo question
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2013, 12:53:41 PM »
Okay lets make it a little easier...did Gotha built G IV's ever get painted in Mauve and Blue?


Brian

Offline zavod44

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Re: Gotha cammo question
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2013, 08:52:27 AM »
Well I was looking through the Gotha G IV instruction sheet and they have this picture of a Gotha built G IV and it seems to have some sort of camouflage on it.  What color do we think this plane is painted in?  Most of them seem to be either a very light whitish blue, or painted in night fighting colors.  Were they painted in other colors? 



Further more I was looking at the WNW website where they show the built kit and they show how the blue and purple render in black and white.  They seem to have a similar look.  I know B&W can have many different interpretations. 




JUst sayin, this looks not too far from the B&W of the crashed G IV in the instruction sheet?  The pictures I took are hopelessly lousy because of the lighting, don't hold that against me.  Any thoughts, (on the colors not my photography)?

Brian
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 08:59:53 AM by zavod44 »

Offline zavod44

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Re: Gotha cammo question
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2013, 08:57:36 AM »
I added a better picture of where it is clearly Gotha built, just in case it was hard to see....



Brian
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 09:00:25 AM by zavod44 »

Offline zavod44

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Re: Gotha cammo question
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2013, 12:53:37 PM »
I agree totally with you. We can't have any idea what color this is for sure.  I guess the next question is how many documented planes have a camouflage color sprayed over the light blue?  If it is sprayed over the light blue then what color is it?  How do we know Gotha planes were only blue.  I'm not trying to say I disagree I'm just curious why do we believe this?  I'm very new to this...I normally build tank models and I have a ton of references, so I can corroborate everything I do.  With this I have no good sources.  Besides Rowan showed Lori2 a year ago as a LVG built.  What changed his mind?

Brian

Offline zavod44

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Re: Gotha cammo question
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2013, 02:07:34 PM »
I wonder what these guys know!  I feel so left out.  I hate that it seems like some kind of secret.  If someone has info let us know!  I have trouble with, it is because he says it is...you know what I mean? 

Brian

Offline Flugzeugwerke

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Re: Gotha cammo question
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2013, 02:13:24 PM »
This is an interesting thread but it belongs in a different section: WWI Aircraft Modeling/ WWI Aircraft Information/Questions

Sorry to be a stickler, but the forum's usefulness diminishes when stuff gets scattered all over willy nilly.

As for your question, I suggest you ask Rowan what he uncovered...

Offline zavod44

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Re: Gotha cammo question
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2013, 02:37:16 PM »
I thought it dealt with markings and camouflage, sorry for the breach of etiquette. 

I have repeatedly asked Rowan, apparently he was only responsive when he wanted my $40 but now he seems to be less interested in my emails. 

Do you have the ability to move this offending thread? 

Offline zavod44

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Re: Gotha cammo question
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2013, 02:57:41 PM »
This is an interesting thread but it belongs in a different section: WWI Aircraft Modeling/ WWI Aircraft Information/Questions

Sorry to be a stickler, but the forum's usefulness diminishes when stuff gets scattered all over willy nilly.

As for your question, I suggest you ask Rowan what he uncovered...


I know I'm new here, but considering there has been three posts this section since November 16 it doesn't seem like that many people other than you will be offended, or even notice for that matter.  Maybe at least this will breathe some life into this section.  Seems like a bit of a ghost town here.  I got to admit a post like this makes me feel a little uncomfortable.  It has a hint of condescension, and contains no helpful info.  It's like I'm doing something wrong by asking a question about camouflage and markings in the camouflage and markings section.  I hope this isn't the kind of treatment usually given to a new member around here.  If so I may have to find some other place that seems a little more welcoming.  I just kind of thought any kind of participation was good.  Most places welcome an open dialog but maybe not here.   If this is some kind of old boys club here let me know now....


Sorry for my error..
Brian




 

Offline Whiteknuckles

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Re: Gotha cammo question
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2013, 07:17:56 PM »
Brian,

I don't know how often or 'in depth' Rowan reads the forum so I can't speak for him or his answering of questions on this forum (he is a member of many similar forums).
RB is right, Des will move a thread if he deems it appropriate - he will also lock a thread if need be.

This forum certainly isn't an old boys club - if I even got a whiff of that I'd no longer participate in it!
Bo is just trying to keep things in order and I don't believe wished to be 'condescending' in any way.

Participation is welcomed and your question on the Gotho camo is highly relevant in my humble opinion ;)

Andrew

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Offline Flugzeugwerke

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Re: Gotha cammo question
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2013, 11:23:03 PM »

This forum certainly isn't an old boys club - if I even got a whiff of that I'd no longer participate in it!
Bo is just trying to keep things in order and I don't believe wished to be 'condescending' in any way.

Participation is welcomed and your question on the Gotho camo is highly relevant in my humble opinion ;)


That is for sure, sorry if my tone was misinterpreted.

Meanwhile, I have been poring over my G.IV/G.V references looking for pics/ info on Lori2, so far all I can find is the single frontal aspect in Gotha!. From that you can't tell much other than, as RB says, it appears to be in dark finish. Somewhere there must be a photo that supports the markings on the side? I agree with RBs interpretation that appears to be a single color upper finish, but I wouldn't put money on it.

This has been stated many ways before, but there are almost as many unknowns as knowns when it comes to WWI finishes -- especially on the losing side of the conflict. It would not surprise me at all to learn that at least some Gotha built examples were finished in a manner similar to those built by LVG. Indeed the photo you presented appears to bear that out. So unless some other evidence emerges I think you have a leg to stand on here.

As you are perhaps discovering with this inquiry, just about every WWI modeling project requires quite a bit of research, often without producing wholly satisfactory answers. That's just the nature of the subject matter.

Offline rowan broadbent

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Re: Gotha cammo question
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2013, 01:07:11 AM »
I've just found this thread.

Blimey Brian, you've got a real bee in your headgear! I got your email yesterday and responded to it this morning (French Time). No evidence of any other email from you, apart from the order you placed. So if you did contact me "repeatedly" I don't have a record on the Hotmail account - this actually wouldn't be the first time that emails have gone missing on hotmail.... we will have our own website and  proper email address at the end of the month - so communications and ordering, viewing catalogues etc will all be easier.

Slightly miffed at your dig that I'm only interested in taking your money  - not $40.00 either, but accuracy seems to drift when people get grumpy..... As this question is now part of a thread, I'll reproduce below the email I sent to Brian this morning, so that everyone has the info (such as it is). I heartilly agree with Bo's sentiments in his last post regarding the difficulty of producing satisfactory answers to modelling markings queries for WWI subjects. It isn't like the second World War, where standardisation was widespread and photos were taken far more often and sometimes even in colour - although that doesn't necessarily help; see controversy about colour  behind P-47 side windows etc etc! Anyway, here's the content of my email to Brian:

Hello Brian,

Thanks for the email, I'm glad you like the decals.

On Lori2, you'll have read the entry in the booklet, I presume? The only reference I have is the single photograph in the Gotha datafile. In the vast majority of cases we only have a single photograph of a particular colour scheme and I try my best to reasonably extrapolate the scheme from what I have. When I posted the initial profile drawings for these decals I had a very helpful email from Richard Alexander and on the subject of Lori 2 he said that he felt that it was Gotha-built rather than LVG, as it had the Gotha-type propeller guards.

In the photograph you will see that it is very hard to discern anything other than a single colour and when the two-tone scheme was used, the two colours are quite easy to pick out. Were there any Gotha-built G.IVs in two-tone camouflage? Well yes, at least one, as seen in the WNW instruction booklet on page 13 but note that this was a photo taken in September 1917 of an aircraft from the first production batch, which would have left the factory around March in the overall light blue scheme. Where was it repainted? The serial has been very neatly re-finished, it seems in the lighter of the two camouflage colours, which might indicate that it was returned to the factory for repair and refinished there however, it might just have easily been repainted at unit or depot level when the attacks on England switched from day to night. I am told that there is photographic evidence that some G.IVs were re-painted on the airfield at Gontrode at that time, although the colours used aren't quoted. My opinion (note it is only my opinion!) is that Lori2 was repainted in a single colour over the original light blue and that colour could have been a dark blue/grey. If you want to follow the two-tone scheme, that's your choice - I only offer my conclusions as an opinion based on the info I have. To sum up then:

- Lori2 seems to be a Gotha-built machine as evidenced by the very specific propeller guards.
- The front area of the fuselage looks to be light blue rather than white
-the rear area I have shown as light blue cannot be seen in the photograph clearly, but there is a hint that the area was lighter and that would make sense if the painter wanted to retain the original serial number without having to re-paint it
- I cannot see a second dark camouflage colour, so I have assumed a single shade was used

Hope that is helpful but do bear in mind that WWI colour schemes are very often construed from a series of interpretive deductions (other people might call them "educated guesses"!). In a great many cases it is impossible to be proved wrong one way or the other, so what you do is down to you and how strongly you feel that your interpretation is right.

Good luck with your Gotha. Do you belong to any of the web forums? if so I'd love to see your progress on line - I do visit most from time to time. If not perhaps you could send me a photo of the finished model?

All the best

Rowan
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack, a crack in everything – that’s how the light gets in

Leonard Cohen

Offline zavod44

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Re: Gotha cammo question
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2013, 02:13:18 AM »
Sorry if I came off strongly, I was on another site, not related to modeling and was attacked so maybe I am a little sensitive.  So after all this, I actually did get a long response from Rowan.  Which made a whole lot of sense.  He said that Richard Alexander at WNW pointed out that the wire mesh guards on the sides of Lori2 are distinctly Gotha shaped.  So therefore they came to the conclusion that it is a Gotha built plane.  Rowan also had the theory that Lori2 may be a repaint. He thinks that the light areas are the original paint and it was masked and sprayed blue over top.  Which seems like it could make sense as well.  So I like this theory.  Now I need to decide how to paint this.  Do I go fictitious and do the way I want it to look, or do it the way it was....now I have a hard decision...

Brian

Offline zavod44

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Re: Gotha cammo question
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2013, 02:25:33 AM »
Yea I must have sent you like four emails.  I thought you had left me for dead  :).  The one thing I have learned coming from the world of WW II to WWI is how much less info there is.  It is very hard to see good pictures.  There is a lot of educated guesswork.  Which I suppose is some of the fun.  I wanted to say thanks personally to Rowan.  I know I sounded harsh, I was having a bad day and it wasn't fair to take it out on anyone.  Rowan you were gentleman and answered all my goofy questions with very intelligent theories.  Which makes me fully understand and trust your conclusions that went into your fantastic decal sheet.  I guess in my heart I really want to do a purple and blue Lori2, but maybe that will give me an excuse to do two Gothas, I can do MoRoTas in purple and blue!

Thanks for all your help everyone, now I have to get this Gotha done!

Brian

Offline GAJouette

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Re: Gotha cammo question
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2013, 02:54:23 AM »
  Sometimes we all have a bad days, fellas. As your moderator I do appreciate your Gentlemanly handling of this discussion,well done gentleman.
Highest Regards,
Gregory Jouette
" What Me Worry"