Author Topic: Acrylic primer lifting issues  (Read 2707 times)

Offline rayb24

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Acrylic primer lifting issues
« on: January 20, 2018, 01:13:49 PM »
I've just had a monumental fail using a well known acrylic primer.  As soon as I top coated and masked I ran into the paint coming up when I remove the masking tape (Tamiya and parafilm). The lifting basically came up as a skin with the primer being the cause.


In the past I’ve used Mr surfacer rattlecan 1200 and it worked perfectly as it bites or etches into the plastic.. which means acrylic paints aren't as fragile after. But this acrylic primer seems to be not at all up to being the first coat for acrylics to be painted over and became a total failure. Now I’m into cleaning all the paint off and back down to plastic... which isn’t hard since it’s skinning off completely. The primer might be a decent paint, but not really as a first coat prime.


So what primers are people using now... I won’t be using an acrylic primer again, and Mr Surfacer seems impossible to fine now...
Ray
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 01:22:26 PM by rayb24 »

Offline Dave Brewer

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Re: Acrylic primer lifting issues
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2018, 02:11:22 PM »
I've just tried Badger Stynylrez on a 1/48 Mosquito and am very impressed, seems to live up to the hype around it.

Offline hiddeous1973

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Re: Acrylic primer lifting issues
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2018, 06:32:52 PM »
maybe I am from an too old school, but I use Tamiya acrilycs (with alcahol or their own lacquer thinner) and I never use a primer.
Never had any trouble with fragile or non-adhering paint. lightly buff with fine sandpaper and cleaning with alcohol are my only steps before painting.

So as this thread is to be about primers, can I ask how necessary is a primer?

Offline Des

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Re: Acrylic primer lifting issues
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2018, 06:36:51 PM »
I'm from the old school as well, been modeling since I was 5 and am now 67 and in all that time I have never used a primer, never had an issue with paint not adhering nor have I experienced paint lifting, just give the plastic a good wash with warm soapy water then rinse off with nice clean water and it will be ready for painting. I use Gunze acrylics and Humbrol enamels.

Des.
Late Founder of ww1aircraftmodels.com and forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com

Offline rayb24

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Re: Acrylic primer lifting issues
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2018, 08:29:26 PM »
I didn’t used to use a primer either, but since other half has asthma, I can’t use the oil based paints I once did. So switched to acrylics. Originally Mr Hobby aqueous which again didn’t need a primer. But now it’s impossible to get here, so use model colour which is fragile hence the primer.


Ray

Bughunter

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Re: Acrylic primer lifting issues
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2018, 03:13:18 AM »
I always (I mean for later metal Alclads and acrylic Gunze) use Alclad Primer, which "etches" into the plastic too.
- It is available in white, gray and black.
- It has a Micro filler to fill small scratches, gives a common base color for different materials like plastic, resin and PE.
- It shows clearly where the surface needs further work and could very fine polished.
- I use the different primer colors as start for later shadowing.
- It's very fine and go smooth through my normal 0,2 airbrush needle.
The only disadvantage is the smell, but this is not a problem with a spray booth with ventilation to the outside.

Hope it helps,
Frank

Offline lcarroll

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Re: Acrylic primer lifting issues
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2018, 05:52:02 AM »
    I rarely use a primer however I've tried the Alclad II black and also the grey. Both times I had to strip my Iwata completely as it "gummed" up. Do you thin it Frank, and if so with what?
   Normally I just wash the sprues in a mild dish detergent and rinse them well as the first step in a Build and that does the trick. I use a combination of Tamiya Acrylics and Model Master enamels.
Cheers,
Lance

Bughunter

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Re: Acrylic primer lifting issues
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2018, 08:36:22 AM »
Both times I had to strip my Iwata completely as it "gummed" up. Do you thin it Frank, and if so with what?
Lance, as far as I know there is no thinner for Alclad, I never needed one. As printed on the bottles. I have only the "Airbrush cleaner", but this can't be used as thinner.

But for your problem I have an idea! There were only glass bottles for colors and primers. Lately they were forced to use also plastic bottles for environmental or shipment reasons, at least for primers. I had only one of such can until now, and I had the impression, that the solving fluid goes through the bottle. At least mine was no more that full as before. So I filled that immediately in a near to empty glass bottle of the same type. I inform a Alclad seller at a exhibition last year about my experience, it was new to him.
So may be it was a older plastic bottle with lost solvent???
My glass bottles never had that, and since my models are not so big, some are still half filled and years old - still usable.

Or - may be there was a rest of cleaner of another type in your airbrush and caused a chemical reaction?

I use a 0,2mm needle in my H&S Infinity, never had an issue with any Alclad. As beginner it was easier to me handle the Alclads then any other color, because:
- no thinning possible (one reason for errors away) and
- even the needed pressure is stated on every bottle (second reason for error away)  ;)  For the primer it states 12-15psi.
- and good shaking of course until the metal balls are free
And the needle should not be too close, the filler needs to go through. It is still very fine on the model surface after the solvent is away. If the flow is not enough, then it may create a "stopper" on the needle tip, but with normal handling it is not a issue.

Cheers,
Frank

Offline lcarroll

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Re: Acrylic primer lifting issues
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2018, 12:51:43 PM »
Frank, (and All)
    Mine is all in glass bottles. I found a residue in the brush almost like "fibers", maybe the Alclad just released a build up from prior use? I use their metal colours a lot, and they are excellent.
Cheers,
Lance

Offline rayb24

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Re: Acrylic primer lifting issues
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2018, 01:29:28 AM »
Thanks for all the suggestions, below is what the elevators looked like after they skinned, the wing was primed with MrSurfacer and painted with MMP and had no problems. I ran out of Mr Surfacer and only had enough for the upper wing at which point I thought Id try one of the newer acrylic primers. The lower wings look like the elevators, well actually worse.





I can't easily get Alclad, but I can get Tamiya primer, I might try that, or I could try automotive primer which is pretty inexpensive and comes in a rattle can so no risk of bunging my airbrush up.

After the skinning occurred, I went for a cup of tea lol and didn't come back to it until today, sanding the paint back now...
Ray







Bughunter

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Re: Acrylic primer lifting issues
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2018, 01:38:52 AM »
I thought Id try one of the newer acrylic primers.
Really pitty, but you are not the first one. It should be prohibited to call such products "PRIMER"! ::)

Cheers,
Frank

Offline jeroen_R90S

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Re: Acrylic primer lifting issues
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2018, 02:30:22 AM »
Real bummer when that happens...
I've used Vallejo Urethane primer a few times, which dries quickly to the touch, but it remains quite fragile until completely cured. after a week or so it's actually quite durable, though it won't take sanding like MrSurfacer. It'll flake off instead of feathering like the MrSurfacer.

One thing I have noticed is that degreasing with the acrylic primer is essential...

Jeroen

Offline hiddeous1973

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Re: Acrylic primer lifting issues
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2018, 03:50:11 PM »
The other day I had to use primer, actually a first for me!
All I had lying around was a jar of Mr. Surfacer 1200 and used that, thinned with Tamiya's lacquer thinner as it was an old bottle and quite thick.
I must say it worked perfect, went on nice, covered greatly and dried quickly and when I sanded it out the next day (Tamiya grit 2000) it came out silky smooth.
I am not saying I will always use it, but when I looked aroud I saw a Mr. Surfacer 1500 in white, will be looking around for that as it might be a nice base for some things. CDL and bleached linen comes to mind.

I know acrylic paints and primer 'feels' like a safer and more healthier option, but you still have to use ventilation with them anyway, so why not use a product that has a perfect record (well, with me anyway   ;) ;) )

Offline Borsos

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Re: Acrylic primer lifting issues
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2018, 04:01:53 PM »
I am using Primer since I started building  1:35 or 1:32 scale, I stick to Mr. Surfacer 1000 from the rattle can and I never was disappointed. It doesn't really "etch" into the plastic, as you can remove it easily with methoxypropanol.
Borsos
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