Poll

What is your opinion

Early OAW, Red Wing Stripes and Fuselage, black nose
8 (17.8%)
Early OAW, Black Wing Stripes, red fuselage, black nose
5 (11.1%)
Early Fokker built, Red wing stripes,, red fuselage, black nose
13 (28.9%)
Early Fokker built, black wing stripes, red fuselage, black nose
1 (2.2%)
No black nose at all
5 (11.1%)
Stripes on upper and under surface of top wing ( either Version,Fokker or OAW)
12 (26.7%)
Other options such as black fuselage
1 (2.2%)

Total Members Voted: 24

Voting closed: January 09, 2016, 04:30:17 AM

Author Topic: Udets Du Doch Nicht: Manufacturer and Markings  (Read 4123 times)

Offline RAGIII

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Udets Du Doch Nicht: Manufacturer and Markings
« on: December 10, 2015, 04:30:17 AM »
OK, This is just for fun and may help me decide what kit to use and how to paint it. There are Multiple schools of thought on this one, NONE totally provable. So I am looking to see if there is a consensus  ::)
RAGIII

PS: This is coming very late but I realized I didn't mention that You can choose 3 items from the list: Example:
Early Fokker Built with red stripes red fuselage and black nose. You can add the No black nose option and The stripes on both upper and lower wing option. I hope this is clear?
« Last Edit: January 01, 2016, 12:16:07 AM by RAGIII »
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Offline hiddeous1973

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Re: Udets Du Doch Nicht: Manufacturer and Markings
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2015, 05:52:03 AM »
Very interessted in this one, as I am planning to do this one myself!

Offline dtomko

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Re: Udets Du Doch Nicht: Manufacturer and Markings
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2015, 05:58:27 AM »
Years ago on the Aerodrome Stephen Lawson posted a photo that  Udet had allegedly given to a British pilot he shot down (can't remember who).  It showed another view of DDN with the front of the rudder painted over, which argued for early Fokker instead of OAW.  It's a very bad print and I couldn't tell if the bottom of the upper wing was striped, but possibly. Also too different colt to tell if nose is black.  I think the stripes were black, in keeping with Kirchstein's Dr. I that he inherited.

Drew
« Last Edit: December 10, 2015, 06:09:48 AM by dtomko »

Offline dtomko

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Re: Udets Du Doch Nicht: Manufacturer and Markings
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2015, 06:11:03 AM »
OK, the photo was given to the American pilot Wannamaker.  Here it is:

Drew

Offline petrov27

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Re: Udets Du Doch Nicht: Manufacturer and Markings
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2015, 07:57:33 AM »
After reading the lengthy discussions on Aerodrome, I went with:
-Red and white stripes on top and bottom of upper wing
-fuselage all in red
-early Fokker built
-no black nose

my build of DDN:
http://forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com/index.php?topic=2690.msg44531#msg44531


Offline RAGIII

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Re: Udets Du Doch Nicht: Manufacturer and Markings
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2015, 10:35:33 AM »
After reading the lengthy discussions on Aerodrome, I went with:
-Red and white stripes on top and bottom of upper wing
-fuselage all in red
-early Fokker built
-no black nose

my build of DDN:
http://forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com/index.php?topic=2690.msg44531#msg44531

Some of us were actually involved in that "Lengthy Discussion" and as always no firm conclusions were drawn. The very small photo on Udets office wall was interesting in that it was obviously DDN. At the time the photo was taken there was no white evident on the turtle deck so I have Eliminated that option from my possible build. Of course it could have been added later  ::)  GvW says in his books that the wings show evidence of being OAW but that there are other possible Fokker traits. Like I said it all is un provable so lets have some fun!
RAGIII

PS: I had looked up your build a couple of weeks ago, Lovely Model!
« Last Edit: December 10, 2015, 11:24:53 PM by RAGIII »
"A man has to know his limitations": Harry Callahan

"Don't slop it on" Lynda Geisler

Offline petrov27

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Re: Udets Du Doch Nicht: Manufacturer and Markings
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2015, 11:24:33 AM »
I have to admit that I am biased in that I personally prefer the look of the red stripes/all red fuselage and I figured no one can decisively prove it wrong :)

Thinking back to those threads, wasnt there also a combat report referenced from a french pilot that referred to Udets Fokker as red (and in the timeframe that Udet flew DDN) - no reference of any black markings that would have seemed likely if the front half was black and the wings black striped?

I recall the office-wall photo as well - I spent some time frame-by-framing the film footage online but you cannot see much. I wonder if a better quality copy of that film somewhere would show more or be clearer (Wunder des Fliegens I think was the source of that footage?)

Regarding the OAW wings, wasnt that in reference to one of Udet's later DVII?

Offline dtomko

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Re: Udets Du Doch Nicht: Manufacturer and Markings
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2015, 12:53:14 PM »
Build 4 or so with different versions!  Udet's last D. VII had an OAW upper wing from another machine.  There's so much retouching on some of these photos it's hard to draw conclusions.  In the first photo of DDN here, the upper wing stripes may have been retouched.

Drew

Offline RAGIII

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Re: Udets Du Doch Nicht: Manufacturer and Markings
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2015, 09:46:19 PM »
I have to admit that I am biased in that I personally prefer the look of the red stripes/all red fuselage and I figured no one can decisively prove it wrong :)

Thinking back to those threads, wasnt there also a combat report referenced from a french pilot that referred to Udets Fokker as red (and in the timeframe that Udet flew DDN) - no reference of any black markings that would have seemed likely if the front half was black and the wings black striped?

I recall the office-wall photo as well - I spent some time frame-by-framing the film footage online but you cannot see much. I wonder if a better quality copy of that film somewhere would show more or be clearer (Wunder des Fliegens I think was the source of that footage?)

Regarding the OAW wings, wasnt that in reference to one of Udet's later DVII?

Reading through The Osprey DVII Book by Norman franks and Greg van Wyngarden, The French pilot referenced in that book is talking about a time frame from Udets red BMW DVII. But there could have been others?

There were a few who have tried to get "High" resolution photos from that film. I don't think they were successful.

In the caption of the Du Doch Nicht photo in Gregs book  he mentions "The Finish on the wings would seem to indicate this was an OAW DVII,yet there is also evidence it may have been Fokker-built. " 
That being said I think there was another of his DVIIs that had an OAW top wing, or at least aileron  ::)
Again we know that NO ONE can prove or  disprove either school of thought. I am just interested in seeing how aligned or split the OPINIONS are  ;D
RAGIII
« Last Edit: December 10, 2015, 11:56:34 PM by RAGIII »
"A man has to know his limitations": Harry Callahan

"Don't slop it on" Lynda Geisler

Offline dtomko

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Re: Udets Du Doch Nicht: Manufacturer and Markings
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2015, 11:40:26 PM »
Udet flew at least 3 D.VIIs: DDN; an OAW all lozenge with black nose and black and white fuselage edge stripes; and the BMW all red late Fokker.  It's that last one that has the OAW upper wing. Rick, I think the OAW serial is also visible on the wing in addition to the aileron - WNW has sharp photos in their instructions.

I think the DDN photos have been examined as closely as possible.  The office photo from the film is tiny and just shows the cockpit area and a bit of the upper wing.  The Wannamaker photo is interesting but very poor quality.  There are several good quality photos of the lozenged OAW machine and the late Fokker BMW powered one.  Glenn Merrill, I think, believed there was a 4th D.VII.  One problem is that the "LO!" being hand painted looks a bit different on each side.

Drew

Offline Rob_Owens

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Re: Udets Du Doch Nicht: Manufacturer and Markings
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2015, 01:53:55 AM »
In this case, I think lack of definitive proof benefits the 1/32 modeler: one can build one of Udet's from either of two WnW kits (or even the D.BII(Alb) if you have the nose bits from another kit)!
In my case, I'd like to do a 1/32 series of Udet's machines from his Eindecker on.
Rob

Offline dtomko

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Re: Udets Du Doch Nicht: Manufacturer and Markings
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2015, 03:27:00 AM »
In my case, I'd like to do a 1/32 series of Udet's machines from his Eindecker on.
Rob

I'm doing that in 1/48, Rob!

Drew

Offline RAGIII

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Re: Udets Du Doch Nicht: Manufacturer and Markings
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2015, 09:55:30 PM »
I think the DDN photos have been examined as closely as possible.  The office photo from the film is tiny and just shows the cockpit area and a bit of the upper wing.  The Wannamaker photo is interesting but very poor quality.  There are several good quality photos of the lozenged OAW machine and the late Fokker BMW powered one.  Glenn Merrill, I think, believed there was a 4th D.VII.  One problem is that the "LO!" being hand painted looks a bit different on each side.

Drew

I agree about the photos drew. Dr. Merrill did some "Speculation" about the OAW upper wing on Udets DVII F. He felt it was/ could have been used because it "Might Have" had some special marking that Udet wanted to keep such as a Large U or Lo on the upper surface. Pretty thin as there is no evidence to prove or disprove. My guess is that a replacement was required and an OAW wing was available.
Back to DDN I guess I should give my "Preferences" :

Manufacturer: Still debating between the Early Fokker built and Early OAW.
Red and white stripes on both surfaces of the wing ( Like Kirchsteins DR1). Red to be different.
Red Fuselage with black nose. Udet had just initiated the black nose squadron marking so I "FEEL" he would have proudly displayed the Unit Marking.
No white stripes or entire turtle deck . No proof of course and Just My Opinion  :-\
RAGIII

In this case, I think lack of definitive proof benefits the 1/32 modeler: one can build one of Udet's from either of two WnW kits (or even the D.BII(Alb) if you have the nose bits from another kit)!
In my case, I'd like to do a 1/32 series of Udet's machines from his Eindecker on.
Rob

Rob, you are entirely correct! The lack of proof does give us a lot of leeway as to which kit/s to use. Although only a couple of handfuls of members have voted it is interesting in that the results so far are sort of surprising to me. Close but not exactly as I suspected they would be.
RAGIII


"A man has to know his limitations": Harry Callahan

"Don't slop it on" Lynda Geisler

Offline dtomko

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Re: Udets Du Doch Nicht: Manufacturer and Markings
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2015, 01:59:53 AM »
Agree with you, Rick, on the black nose for the same reason.  Yes, lots of speculation on Udet's machines.

here's my 1/48 Roden version, done when I was in the OAW camp, which explains the full white rudder and full-bordered fuselage crosses.  I went with black wing stripes in part because at the time I hadn't seen another model with this option.  I'm convinced the wing is retouched in the photo and so arguments about whether or not the wing crosses are bordered might not be relevant. 

Whatever option you choose, it's a striking scheme.

Drew

Offline RAGIII

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Re: Udets Du Doch Nicht: Manufacturer and Markings
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2015, 03:35:16 AM »
Very Nicely done DVII Drew! A great example of one of the MANY possibilities of this scheme! As for the upper wing it was certainly "Touched Up". I remember seeing a version that showed the top of the leading edge was changed in shape. Probably one of the more complete shots from Udets book?
RAGIII
"A man has to know his limitations": Harry Callahan

"Don't slop it on" Lynda Geisler