Author Topic: Gurke's Jasta 5 Albatros  (Read 2144 times)

Offline rhinocrat

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Gurke's Jasta 5 Albatros
« on: May 11, 2015, 08:19:42 PM »
I'm a good way into my WNW Albatros D.Va. I planned all along to give it the markings of Wilhelm Gurke as illustrated in the Windsock Jasta 5 specials, and subsequently copied by various decal manufacturers. Yesterday however, whilst googling around for more references I came across a Rise Of Flight page that suggested that Gurke's machine may have been black. This was attributed to 'new research by Alex Imrie and Greg VanWyngarden'. Can anyone point me to where this research was published? Is it available online anywhere? The black scheme looks great, so I'm happy to give it a go, but I'd like to know what it's based on before I take the plunge.
"I'm going to do the next one quickly straight out of the box..."

Offline rowan broadbent

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Re: Gurke's Jasta 5 Albatros
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2015, 11:48:18 PM »
As one of the "various decal manufacturers" who "copied" these markings from the Windsock Jasta 5 specials, I'd like to add a few comments, if I may.

If you have the two Datafile specials, the photograph on page 7 of volume 2 is the only one I know of of this aircraft. If you compare the grey tones of the red (known) tail outline with the unknown colour of the fuselage then red would be a good choice - likewise the spinner grey tone compares well with the (known) green tail, thus green is a good match for that item. At the time (February or March 1918) that this photo was taken, the red nose band, directly behind the prop spinner, was still worn by other Jasta 5 aircraft but many of the later Albatros D.Va arrivals don't seem to carry this marking, so its apparent absence from Gürke's machine doesn't help with defining the fuselage colour. All we can say with certainty is that the spinner and fuselage were different colours. We don't seem to have the serial number of Gürke's D.Va, so cannot say when it was likely to have been received at Jasta 5 anyway - although it is certainly a D.Va (note the aileron actuator gap in the upper wing and cables running up to it). It should be noted that the photo is markedly under-exposed, which makes interpretation even more tricky.

If I was looking for reasons to paint the fuselage black, the one straw I would grasp at is that the red spinner is a very common marking for Jasta 5 Albatri (although by no means universal) and green seems not to be and most other photos show the (apparently) red spinner as an unexpectedly and consistently light tone for red. I hesitate to suggest that all the spinners thought up to now to have been red were actually green.....

As far as I know, there is as yet no new documentary information identifying the fuselage as black. It is likely a simple re-interpretation of the photo. Looking at it again today, I can see nothing that would make me say that it was one or the other. I went with Dr.Merrill's interpretation (I don't think he had any documentary supporting evidence, so I assume it is simply interpretation) because it was the best I had at the time.

I know that researcher and author Bruno Schmäling (co-author of the recent superb Jasta 30 book from Aeronaut) is hoping to produce a new volume on Jasta 5 in the future and he promises some new revelations therein, so perhaps we will know more then.

So, if you want to build your model now, you could make a case for it having a black fuselage and also a red spinner, should you so wish, or you could wait until the new book appears to see if there is anything new - a bit of a long shot.

Here's a revised profile - note also that the struts and wheel discs should be the same colour as the fuselage - either red or black. Something I missed from my earlier profiles with the decals, and will now change that aspect for future distribution of sets 32017 and 48012.


Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack, a crack in everything – that’s how the light gets in

Leonard Cohen

Offline rhinocrat

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Re: Gurke's Jasta 5 Albatros
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2015, 01:18:05 AM »
Thanks for your thoughts Rowan. I meant no slur by using the word "copied". In fact I ordered your Jasta 5 sets a couple of days ago, because I know that Pheon goes the extra mile in researching their subjects.

Your comments more or less back up what I suspected, i.e. that it is more re-interpretation of the photo than new evidence. I always thought the struts looked painted and had intended to go down that route, and the fuselage does look a different colour to the spinner. The black scheme does look very sexy, so I shall probably go with it, but there is room for manoeuvre. Who is to say it's not dark blue or purple? Even Yellow is possible given the way that colour can be rendered as very dark grey in those old photos.

So, thanks for replying, looking forward to receiving those decal sets ( and to getting my sweaty mits on Herr Schmalling's Jasta 5 book).

David Ryley

"I'm going to do the next one quickly straight out of the box..."

Offline rowan broadbent

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Re: Gurke's Jasta 5 Albatros
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2015, 06:09:32 AM »
Feeling a tad curmugeonly earlier today (car's gearbox broke.... so ££££) so I'm sorry for being a bit of a grump.

I'd be wary of taking the speculation much beyond red/black for the main colour. Although chrome yellow could photograph as black on ortho film, the contrast with a white star would be very poor in reality, so that would make it unlikely, I think.

I've had yet another ponder and I've added a black fuselage possibility to the decal profiles on the two sets. I also looked again tonight at all the photos in the DF Specials of the supposed red spinners...... I seem to recall the red nose was documented somewhere, must dig around, but if it wasn't documented then I do find interpretation of the grey scale as red to be a bit ... iffy? A green spinner matched to the tail begins to look more likely and the grey match between tail and spinner is really quite compelling, BUT  this is PURE SPECULATION and as it says below, we need to clearly label it as such!!
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack, a crack in everything – that’s how the light gets in

Leonard Cohen

Offline rhinocrat

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Re: Gurke's Jasta 5 Albatros
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2015, 05:28:59 PM »
Thanks guys.
Another thought I had was that German pilots often used the colours of their old earth-bound regiments to decorate their aircraft. Gurke served with Feld-Artillerie-Regiment Nr. 92 before taking to the skies. Unfortunately that's as far as I've been able to go with that as I have no information on the Regiment or their uniform. Anyone?
"I'm going to do the next one quickly straight out of the box..."

Offline Dal Gavan

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Re: Gurke's Jasta 5 Albatros
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2015, 10:52:54 PM »
David, the artillery facing colours were black (sometimes with red piping), reflecting the Prussian, Bavarian and other state's traditional colours back to the 1700's.  The regimental distinctive colour was shown on the shoulder straps and would be white, red, medium blue, yellow or medium green.  It could be either the strap colour Gurke used, if he wanted to use his regimental distinctive colour on his aircraft, or black (the traditional artillery colour).

I don't have any info for AR Nr 92, the list I have only goes to AR Nr 84 (see http://www.kaisersbunker.com/gtp/New/fa0.htm for the same list), so I don't know what the strap colour is.  If it was AR Nr 29 (2nd Württemburg) he was in (finger fault on 92), then then the strap is red.

Cheers.

Dal.   

Offline rhinocrat

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Re: Gurke's Jasta 5 Albatros
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2015, 11:02:53 PM »
Thanks Dal. That makes me more comfortable about the black scheme. Of course we will probably never know for sure.
"I'm going to do the next one quickly straight out of the box..."

Offline Dal Gavan

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Re: Gurke's Jasta 5 Albatros
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2015, 11:39:54 AM »
Glad to be of help, mate.

Cheers.

Dal.