Uniforms for RNAS Mechanics when On Board Ship???

[Michael Scarborough]

I am about to start populating my RNAS Pup diorama and am running into a brick wall re: the proper uniforms for the mechanics servicing the plane.

I have both Osprey books on WWI British aviation uniforms and have also googled deeply. I have lots of great images of RN crewmen and images of RNAS planes and pilots and some officers, but no one who is obviously a mechanic. I just can not come up with what seems to be a consensus on what was worn by the mechanics when on board ship and, if indeed, it would have been any different from what they wore when servicing land based aircraft. In fact, it seems that it was a pretty mixed bag of khaki AND Navy Blue when it came to officers, pilots, enlisted ranks, et al.

To simplify the question, does this new figure from Kellerkind make sense in a ship board setting?:


Advice much appreciated.

Cheers,
Michael

[lcarroll]

Michael,
    By coincidence my present "read" is "Naval 8, A Classic Memoir of a World War 1 Fighter Squadron". It's a collection of memories of the Unit from 1916 until the Armistice written by a selection of Officers and including a Mechanic to represent the "Lower Deck". It would appear that, while serving on the Western Front to augment the RFC/RAF Naval Customs such as the "bells" Watch System and issue of the rum ration were followed. As for dress the Ground Crew appear to have used a mixture of both Naval and Army garb. I suspect the boys serving at sea wore strictly the Navy Uniform as the rest of the crew. The author of this chapter refers to clothing/uniforms per: just before embarking for France, after leaving ship duty to serve on the front, It infers that a change of uniforms was done. "And so home to my Arabella with my new issue of Khaki".......on which she sewed the "red RNAS Shoulder Badge..........and the Albatross, the sign of the Air Mechanic". On the Flight Line they appear to have been in a mix of Army / Navy Dress as well. In referring to how the Ground Crews would run out to meet their incoming aircraft to "wing walk" them to their parking spots........ "Innumerable miles were run by these men in heavy boots but with clothes reduced to as little as possible below their blue or khaki dungarees".  This isn't all that definitive but I'd GUESS that onboard ship it was Navy work dress and for those transferred to the front, a mix.
   Unfortunately the only photos of the Ground Crew are in their Football uniforms.
   Not the greatest of info but hopefully of some help.
Cheers,
Lance

[Michael Scarborough]

Greetings, Lance,

Well, I agree that it's not definitive but it is awfully interesting! Sounds like something I would like to read and will look it up.

The overall feeling I'm getting is that the rules regarding uniforms seem to have been somewhat lax when the RNAS crews were at sea. Although it is awfully hard to imagine anything involved with the Royal Navy or the RFC being lax.

I am planning to use two Kellerkind figures, both of whom are in RNAS naval looking uniforms, as the the officers present. One is in flight gear and the other will be holding a chart. I have three other figures of a nondescript description that I will dress in navy blue fatigues. I found a really wonderful photo of crewmen waiting for the rum ration,  so I will use them as my model for the enlisted ranks uniforms, be they Royal Navy or RNAS.

I also found a really wonderful photo of sailors working on lines and cables and will use that as a secondary scene on the diorama. But, as far as the other mechanic holding the Lewis gun is concerned, well, let's just assume he gets shore leave. The last thing I need to do is buy another figure, especially considering my recent purchase of the AEG....well worth it, but, right on top of the Felixstowe/ W29 combo platter, well, that myth about all Americans being rich is indeed, a myth.

Cheers from NYC,

Michael

PS The only really rich American I know is Bud, so, if anyone needs a low interest loan, he is the one to contact.

[Pgtaylorart]

Thanks for doing all this research for my Pup diorama, Michael. I really appreciate all the hard work!!    

I'll toast a warm beer in your honor!

George

[lcarroll]

Michael,
   My copy of the book was part of an incredible coincidence. I was visiting my Stepson in Ottawa and asked him to drive me to one of the Hobby Shops I'd seen on-line. When I walked in the door the owner was doing the final sorting and pricing on a table full of (some rare) aviation books he'd acquired at an Estate Sale. I made a "killing" by offering him a figure well below the worth of the 29 books I grabbed up, even with having them shipped home I made out like a bandit"! I guess he did as well as he accepted my offer! My copy was re-published in 72 from an original release in 1931. SBN 85368 469 3. !972 version Arms and Armour Press London.
   Included in the purchase were a 1934 Copy of Elliott White Springs "Nocturne Militaire" and a 1929 version of his "War-Birds, Diary of an Unknown Aviator". Some days are vastly better then others!
    Sorry, back to your topic!
Cheers,
Lance 

[uncletony]

Apropos of nothing probably, but don't forget that the shipboard Pups were a use-once-and-throw-away type deal -- there was no means of recovering them once they were launched! They simply ditched them and they sunk. So, not a lot of overhauling, repairs etc on a plane that had basically never flown. But still lots of fooling around getting the rotary engine started etc...

Just food for thought.

[Michael Scarborough]

Well, Bo, reading this has given me a real sinking feeling. But, unless the mechanics were skinny-dipping, they must have worn something.

I just don't want to make a glaring error in the uniforms of my figures. But, if it's this hard to find information on what the mechanics might have been wearing on board, it would be hard for anyone to argue with the way I portray them.....as long as I don't have them wearing pink tutus.

Don't ask, don't tell, Michael

[Michael Scarborough]

PS George, glad to be taking the load off your shoulders, buddy.

In all those photos showing Dunning taking off, and landing, (except for that terminally bad landing he took), there only seem to be officers present. I have really looked those images over to try to find any indication of what the mechanics and enlisted RNAS personnel might have been wearing. But, none seem to be in evidence in the photos I have been able to track down.

Please let me know if you find anything. I am really determined to get this right.

Cheers, Michael

[Pgtaylorart]

Apropos of nothing probably, but don't forget that the shipboard Pups were a use-once-and-throw-away type deal -- there was no means of recovering them once they were launched! They simply ditched them and they sunk. So, not a lot of overhauling, repairs etc on a plane that had basically never flown. But still lots of fooling around getting the rotary engine started etc...

Just food for thought.

I though they did land on the ships. It seems very dangerous to ditch in the ocean and be rescued back in this in this era.

I'm not sure where I read this (I think it was the Windsock Datafile) but from what I understand (in my very limited knowledge on this) the skis, or more accurately, skids were added to aid in landing by creating friction to stop the plane. The wheels had no breaks of course, and would roll off the wooden deck, even if the pup was parked and a strong gust of wind blew. They also added primitive tail hooks and restraining systems to help stop the plane. They would add wheels to the skids that would fall away after take off.  I could be completely wrong about all of this, but that's what I'm basing my GB model on so I hope there's some truth to this. 

George

[uncletony]

The battleship turret-mounted Pups like Michael is depicting had no means whatsoever to land back on the ships they were launched from; it was a one-way ticket, and the range of the planes of the time meant it was probably unlikely that they would find a friendly landing strip on land to land on if launched in defense as their mission called for. The pilots of course would be rescued if possible.

Later of course trials were conducted and successful takeoffs and landings were conducted from towed barges and aircraft carriers, but that was a different thing.

[Pgtaylorart]

Wow, those men has brass #%&s. I guess they were kind-of the kamikaze of their day, on a possible suicide mission.

[WarrenD]

Michael, FWIW, I believe leather jerkins are only associated with troops deployed to the front lines that had to endure inclement weather. I'm sure noe RN or RNAS expert, but it's an item of issue unique to the RA. I could very well be wrong.

Warren

[Michael Scarborough]

OK, thanks, Warren.

I've decided to go ahead and use the mechanics' garb as pictured in the Osprey books, those being blue overalls/jump suits with a khaki cap. In my mind this sort of gives a nod to both services and also seems wholly plausible for ship board garb. I'm using some old Verlinden generic mechanic figures for the bulk and actually the head w/cap of a German WWII figure. Also some British WWII tankers in fatigues from Ultracast, with altered headgear will serve as nearby sailors....assuming I get that far. There's a big IPMS show in NJ in four weeks I'd really like to enter.

The two officers will be from Kellerkind and, wow, are they great figures.

George, I found that the more I looked, the wider range of sea-going craft I found that launched Pups, Camels, 1 1/2 Strutters, etc., and amazing fodder for combo ship/AC dioramas. And, indeed, in most cases, as Bo has said, there was no means of retrieving them on board. I think the whole Dunning experiment was pretty much an exception but I am certainly no expert in this field...although I would sure like to learn a lot more about it. It seems to me I saw a recently published book on WWI British aviation at sea but can not now find reference to it or a title.

Interestingly, in the late 40s and early 50s, after the USAF had been formed, based on The Bomb, the USN, and particularly Naval aviation was really scrambling to survive. My dad was chosen to be in the first Navy nuke attack squadron, VC-5, and before they developed the AJ Savage, which could take off and land on a carrier deck, the plan was indeed to have P2V Neptunes take off from the carrier, deliver the package, then return (assuming they'd not been shot down) and ditch alongside the carrier, as they were too heavy to land on the deck. I asked my dad how he and his squadron mates felt about the idea of intentionally ditching especially in far Northern waters. In his usual dry and very understated way he said, "well, we weren't too excited about it." Brass, indeed.

Wish I'd asked him more. Ugh.

Cheers,
Michael

[Royston]

Sorry to come in late on this Michael, I may be of some use.
Stokers all wore boiler suits over their working rig, some were heavy quilted for cold weather use.
Officers always white, ratings blue with black caps.
However I have one very clear picture showing a member of the crew sitting on the floats of a Sop Tabloid stowed onboard the Cruiser HMS Aurora.
He is wearing heavy coveralls and possibly brown with a black cap, they are extremely dirty.   
Sorry I can't show the picture but I don't have a scanner.
I'll speak to a mate of mine who may have one if your interested

Roy

[Michael Scarborough]

Hey, Roy,

OK, thanks for this. If it isn't a hassle, I'd love to see the image.

I've decided to do three blokes (is that the correct term?) in the RFC coveralls I found in the Osprey book. It seems the more I look, the more varied the garb, especially in working situations. So, I think I am covered for the specific RNAS boys and anyone around the airplane itself. I want to get this portion of the diorama set and then, later on, add a scene based on this really great photo:

Well....I was just about to drop in the photo when I saw that it has a BIG Getty images logo on it. Can I still post it here?

Anyway, it shows seamen sitting on the deck mending cables and, as there is actually quite a bit of room there, I think it would fit the area under the guns really well:


The diorama is large enough to incorporate two related but separate scenes and I believe these boys will add a lot of interest to an otherwise bald area.

Cheers,
Michael