Author Topic: Jasta 11 Pfalz DIII  (Read 2218 times)

Online RAGIII

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Jasta 11 Pfalz DIII
« on: September 20, 2014, 03:34:50 AM »
While searching through the link that Jamo supplied in the Aircraft section with lots of high res photos of German aircraft, I ran across this well known but much more clear photo of the Supposed Jasta 11 Pfalz. My question is as Follows:
1. Note the rib tapes and edging tapes clearly visible on the lower right wing. Was this common to Sibergrau finished Pfalz DIIs' ?
2. I seem to see splotches of light and dark, just weathering or?
3. A front view of the aircraft in the Windsock Flying Circus book shows that the lower wing had white outlines on the cross( as does the fuselage), but it appears to be a fairly dark surface.
What am I seeing? Am I reading in too much, or is it unusual to see edging and rib tapes so clearly on a Silbergrau wing?
RAGIII

Pfalz D III by Wooway1, on Flickr

PS: I am posting this in good faith for Illustrative and research / discussion. If I am violating ANY copyright I will happily and freely remove the image.

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Online RAGIII

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Re: Jasta 11 Pfalz DIII
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2014, 05:28:34 AM »
Just my 2 cents, but if think the effects of shadow and reflectivity toward the tip are making it look less Silbergrau than it really is.

I appreciate your comments! I can not argue with your conclusions as you are probably correct. Just strikes me as looking different than the norm for a DIII. In particular right at the root, allowing for differences in reflectivity between the wing and the fuselage,(fabric vs wood, It still seems to be a large difference in color/tone in the photo. The splotches I commented on seem to be fairly regular. So in the end I am probably reading in more than is there,hoping for something to make this aircraft unique giving me a reason to model it rather than something more common  8)
RAGIII
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Offline lcarroll

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Re: Jasta 11 Pfalz DIII
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2014, 08:10:16 AM »
Rick,
     I pulled out my copy of the Flying Circus book to look at the second photo you reference. The photo you've included here is produced much lighter in the book and the very stark demarcation between the wing root and the wing stands out clearly (at the trailing edge centered over the left wheel in the photo), that wing is a different colour/finish. :o I'd bet on Lozenge which is faded, varnished heavily, or both. IMHO you've found an error in the interpretation of the scheme. I'd also bet on an identical coloured fuselage band as the nose, given it's Jasta 11 most likely red.
Cheers,
Lance

Offline ALBATROS1234

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Re: Jasta 11 Pfalz DIII
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2014, 02:08:13 PM »
it very well could be faded lozenge on the lower wing like holtzems this would explain edge tape contrast. the light patches could theoretically could be polygons of very faded dirty lozenge fabric. i cant say for sure though.

Online RAGIII

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Re: Jasta 11 Pfalz DIII
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2014, 08:17:58 AM »
Rick,
     I pulled out my copy of the Flying Circus book to look at the second photo you reference. The photo you've included here is produced much lighter in the book and the very stark demarcation between the wing root and the wing stands out clearly (at the trailing edge centered over the left wheel in the photo), that wing is a different colour/finish. :o I'd bet on Lozenge which is faded, varnished heavily, or both. IMHO you've found an error in the interpretation of the scheme. I'd also bet on an identical coloured fuselage band as the nose, given it's Jasta 11 most likely red.
Cheers,
Lance

Thanks for taking the time to look! That goes to the others also. An interesting photo and one that I still am not sure about. Having stared at the various shots for hours I am inclined to think that RBs comments on shadow and reflectivity are probably correct. The "Edging Tape" actually could be the edge of the upper wing shadow. The blotches also could just be light reflecting from high points in the fabric. On the other hand who knows. GvW mentions the lower wing appearing to be darker as a "Common" optical effect. Funny thing he also mentions in his caption of Holtzems aircraft that the wing is Silbergrau and looks darker due to this common effect! Finally and what really got me going in the direction to accept the Silbergrau lower wing is that I happened to glance at a Nieuport 17 model sitting on top of my Display case. I noticed that the lower wing looked DECIDEDLY darker than the adjoining fuselage even though they are the same color. Ceiling light casting a shadow  8) Thanks again and If anybody wants to disagree and convince me to do one with a lozenge lower wing feel free to do so  ;D
RAGIII
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Offline Frommherz

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Re: Jasta 11 Pfalz DIII
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2014, 03:08:53 AM »
This is a D.III. To the best of my knowledge all D.III's and the early D.IIIa's were silbergrau all over. The switch to "Flugzeugstoff" (or "lozenge" as it is more commonly known nowadays)  for covering the wings came during D.IIIa production. My two cents are that no D.III ever had "Flugzeugstoff" on any part of the airframe.
The difficulty only arises when it comes to identifying the flying surfaces of D.IIIa models.

If you go through "Pfalz Aircraft of WWI" (by Jack Herris, Aernaut books) you will find that the lower wings of Pfalz aircraft frequently appear to be darker than the top wing or the silbergrau fuselage.

Offline Kampf doppeldecker

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Re: Jasta 11 Pfalz DIII
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2014, 07:51:44 AM »
Had this photo plus front view as 10x8's for some time (from G Stuart Leslie)
In my opinion, even though this is a very early DIII only three away from 1366/17, a 'typenprufung' aircraft, the lower wing does perhaps appear to be faded lozenge, or perhaps a replacement silbergrau panel. Notice that the interplane struts on this aircraft are cross braced, totally (apparently) unique, everyone else it would seem, was of the opinion that the 'U' strut was up to the job - a 'Flugpark' mod?, can't see them doing this at Jasta level, although not impossible. The turnbuckles can be seen mid wire length and in the front view run to the outside of the base of the strut. Maybe this was a school or Flugpark 'hack' machine. Note also no Pfalz trademark decal or bestellnummer anywhere on the tail unit so this overpainted, white pernaps?. Strut cross bracing appears to be pre upper wingtip probs as this aircraft has no wingtip bracing wires which ran to slightly different points near to upper wingtip on DIII before being a factory fitment on DIIIa, or maybe this aircraft just never had them fitted.
Cheers, AL.

Online RAGIII

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Re: Jasta 11 Pfalz DIII
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2014, 08:47:00 AM »
This is a D.III. To the best of my knowledge all D.III's and the early D.IIIa's were silbergrau all over. The switch to "Flugzeugstoff" (or "lozenge" as it is more commonly known nowadays)  for covering the wings came during D.IIIa production. My two cents are that no D.III ever had "Flugzeugstoff" on any part of the airframe.
The difficulty only arises when it comes to identifying the flying surfaces of D.IIIa models.

If you go through "Pfalz Aircraft of WWI" (by Jack Herris, Aernaut books) you will find that the lower wings of Pfalz aircraft frequently appear to be darker than the top wing or the silbergrau fuselage.

Thanks for the input, I do appreciate you looking in ! I agree that no DIII was covered at the factory with Lozenge. I was thinking that perhaps it was a replacement or re covered. As for the darker appearance of lower wings I also agree that it was common in photos. My original thought was regarding the unusual looking blotches that appear on the wing surface and the "Apparent" wing tapes and edging.
Thanks again for posting your excellent info.
RAGIII
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 09:46:34 AM by RAGIII »
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Online RAGIII

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Re: Jasta 11 Pfalz DIII
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2014, 08:53:33 AM »
Had this photo plus front view as 10x8's for some time (from G Stuart Leslie)
In my opinion, even though this is a very early DIII only three away from 1366/17, a 'typenprufung' aircraft, the lower wing does perhaps appear to be faded lozenge, or perhaps a replacement silbergrau panel. Notice that the interplane struts on this aircraft are cross braced, totally (apparently) unique, everyone else it would seem, was of the opinion that the 'U' strut was up to the job - a 'Flugpark' mod?, can't see them doing this at Jasta level, although not impossible. The turnbuckles can be seen mid wire length and in the front view run to the outside of the base of the strut. Maybe this was a school or Flugpark 'hack' machine. Note also no Pfalz trademark decal or bestellnummer anywhere on the tail unit so this overpainted, white pernaps?. Strut cross bracing appears to be pre upper wingtip probs as this aircraft has no wingtip bracing wires which ran to slightly different points near to upper wingtip on DIII before being a factory fitment on DIIIa, or maybe this aircraft just never had them fitted.
Cheers, AL.



I really appreciate your comments. I had noticed the bracing wires and for some reason just blew them off  :-[ The differences in rigging sure do open a can of worms as to what else "Could" be possible. GvW has cautiously identified this aircraft as a "Probable" Jasta 11 bird. He does state a white tail and a black, or red, stripe near the tail, with Jasta 11 red nose. Given the uniqueness of this one I think one could almost get away with a replacement Lozenge covered wing and dare anyone to absolutely prove you wrong  :-X
RAGIII
PS: Still not certain  ;D

« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 09:09:29 AM by RAGIII »
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Offline Flugzeugwerke

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Re: Jasta 11 Pfalz DIII
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2014, 09:24:02 AM »
Look how filthy and beat up that thing is(!)

Online RAGIII

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Re: Jasta 11 Pfalz DIII
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2014, 09:50:09 AM »
Exhibit B. High contrast between the root and wing, but that's surely all silbergrau.


Certainly agree with you that this wing is Silbergrau! I also kinda agree the other is also though as I stated still some minor room for doubt!
RAGIII
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Re: Jasta 11 Pfalz DIII
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2014, 09:52:00 AM »
Look how filthy and beat up that thing is(!)

Yeah BO, they weathered much more than most model. There is a close up of Friedrichs in a DIII that makes this one look pretty clean  8)
RAGIII
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 10:30:21 PM by RAGIII »
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Offline Frommherz

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Re: Jasta 11 Pfalz DIII
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2014, 05:20:20 AM »
RAGIII
PS: Still not certain  ;D
[/quote]

I'd go for silbergrau, 99% sure! There are harder cases than this one  8)
The photograph of 1369/17 has probably been taken sometime in autumn 1917 which is fairly early in the DIII's service time. I can not recall seeing a photo of another DIII from that time with lozenge replacements.

Allotting 1369/17 to Jasta 11 is not the worst guess as it does bear all the hallmarks of Jasta 11 and the Albatros in the background suits too.

Online RAGIII

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Re: Jasta 11 Pfalz DIII
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2014, 01:14:36 AM »
RAGIII
PS: Still not certain  ;D

I'd go for silbergrau, 99% sure! There are harder cases than this one  8)
The photograph of 1369/17 has probably been taken sometime in autumn 1917 which is fairly early in the DIII's service time. I can not recall seeing a photo of another DIII from that time with lozenge replacements.

Allotting 1369/17 to Jasta 11 is not the worst guess as it does bear all the hallmarks of Jasta 11 and the Albatros in the background suits too.
[/quote]

If  Silbergrau I think I will just do Jasta 4 and 10 birds with my Roden and WNW Pfalz kits  ;D
RAGIII
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"Don't slop it on" Lynda Geisler