Author Topic: Sopwith Snipe with Red Stars and Arrows?????  (Read 2201 times)

Offline Des

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Sopwith Snipe with Red Stars and Arrows?????
« on: March 13, 2013, 01:30:32 PM »
I have just completed the Wingnuts Snipe and finished it in Russian markings, the kit supplied Stars and Arrows are in black but I have found this picture of Red Stars and Red Arrows, which is correct?????????

Everyone recognises Russian aircraft as having Red Stars, so where did Wingnuts get their information that the Stars and Arrows are black



There is also a serial number on the rear of the fuselage, no numbers are included with the Wingnuts kit so this poses another question, did the Russian aircraft have a serial number?????

A translation of the Russian text which accompanied the picture reads as follows;

A Sheps - Aircraft of World War II ENTENTE
Fighter Sopwith Snipe ASA Civil War
krasvocnleta G. Sapozhnikova


The red Stars and Arrows would certainly depict the aircraft as being Russian, any information would be greatly appreciated.

Des.
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Offline Des

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Re: Sopwith Snipe with Red Stars and Arrows?????
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2013, 02:07:06 PM »
Some more information has come to light, David wilson sent this to me and it is from the website WW1 Aviation Illustrations.

           THE TWO FACES OF NELLY


Note that this website article states that the rudder was painted blue with a black arrow, Wingnuts instructions say that the rudder was CDL with a black arrow, so far all the information is rather sketchy.
The WW1 Aviation illustrations website also say that the new national markings were only applied to the lower surface of the bottom wing, Wingnuts show the stars on the top of the top wing as well. There also appears to be a whte border around the outer edge of the wheels covers, of special note is the propeller, it seems to be a wood finish propeller, Wingnuts say the propeller was painted with a question mark on the black on the back of the propeller.

Des.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 02:14:26 PM by Des »
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Offline Siskin

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Re: Sopwith Snipe with Red Stars and Arrows?????
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2013, 03:36:53 PM »
Look here - http://aviaww1.forum24.ru/?1-19-0-00000081-000-0-0-1324323574
in this thread we have been discussing this plane eventually came to the conclusion that:
Rudder was plain, black arrow, stars above and below the red with a 50%  :D
my personal opinion the red star, at least do your Snipe with red stars ;).

Offline Flugzeugwerke

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Re: Sopwith Snipe with Red Stars and Arrows?????
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2013, 10:26:01 PM »
Personally I wouldn't believe anything unless the reasoning behind the conclusions were stated. The black stars are a major deviation from convention, so somebody must have a reason (however right or wrong) for thinking it was this way. Time for you to learn Russian, Des so you can wade into Siskin's forum  ;)

Offline Chris Johnson

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Re: Sopwith Snipe with Red Stars and Arrows?????
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2013, 10:40:35 PM »
Oh boy, don't you just hate it when conflicting marking information comes to light after you've completed the kit.

Cheers,

Chris
You can have it good; You can have it fast; you can have it cheap. Pick any two, but all three are impossible.

Offline Des

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Re: Sopwith Snipe with Red Stars and Arrows?????
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2013, 11:50:36 PM »
Thanks Siskin for the link to the Russian forum, with the translate option I can read most of what has been written and it is very interesting, it's a real toss up between the black and red, no real hard proof though.

Bo - I'm too old to be learning a new language, the translate works quite well. Some people have a mind set and will not deviate from their belief regardless of what is said, finding hard facts from so long ago is a very difficult task especially when records have been lost and all eye witnesses are now gone.

Chris - I was a little dubious about the black stars when I first saw the marking options for the kit but I went with it under the belief that Wingnuts had done their homework.

Des.
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Offline Flugzeugwerke

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Re: Sopwith Snipe with Red Stars and Arrows?????
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2013, 12:11:03 AM »
Of course I was kidding about learning Russian Des :)

I can give you a personal example of how impossible it can be to determine the colors used on these old artifacts. As I have mentioned before, I am restoring an old racing car and plan to repaint it in its original livery. I have the great fortune to possess several excellent B&W photos of it from the day, from almost every angle, as well as color footage of several of her sister cars in action. I have even interviewed the driver. And yet there are several questions that simply cannot be answered with the available information regarding the color scheme. And this was (only) 60 years ago, not 100.

Offline drdave

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Re: Sopwith Snipe with Red Stars and Arrows?????
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2013, 12:57:42 AM »
looking at the photos in the instructions of the real plane and reading WNWs reports of eyewitnesses describing the scheme, it seems plausible at least they have it correct. They state the aircraft was re-covered  once in Bolshevik hands.

Offline drdave

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Re: Sopwith Snipe with Red Stars and Arrows?????
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2013, 01:11:53 AM »
http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/AI/AI57-6/33-2.jpg   for a colourful scheme!

The only image I found on google image search shows NO upperwing stars on Shaposhnikovs Snipe.

Offline drdave

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Re: Sopwith Snipe with Red Stars and Arrows?????
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2013, 01:14:26 AM »
http://flyingmachines.ru/Images7/Putnam/Soviet/330-1.jpg

apparently Windsock 10/4 has references.....

Offline michael

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Re: Sopwith Snipe with Red Stars and Arrows?????
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2013, 01:21:13 AM »
I love the scheme with the red star over the roundels. all you would need was the right size stars

michael
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Offline drdave

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Re: Sopwith Snipe with Red Stars and Arrows?????
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2013, 02:21:08 AM »
Theres a photo too

Offline drdave

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Re: Sopwith Snipe with Red Stars and Arrows?????
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2013, 10:15:07 AM »
Nah....
It would be visible on the aileron really clearly at that angle.

It supports the re covered theory though. No evidence od an old roundel

Offline Flugzeugwerke

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Re: Sopwith Snipe with Red Stars and Arrows?????
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2013, 12:22:35 PM »
What's the strange pattern on the rudder?

Offline pepperman42

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Re: Sopwith Snipe with Red Stars and Arrows?????
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2013, 03:55:32 AM »
Im with RB. The star can be seen on the port wing and the lower right point appears on the aileron. The slight sheen is washing out the rest. Im thinking red as its a different tone from the spade.

Steve
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