Albatros d.III camouflage - photo analysis - hypothesis

[MG]

Please note the color & layout of the wings should be referenced to OAW (Schneidemuhl) built airframes not Johannistahl built.

Yes, of course.
The problem is that there are many photos and color representations of Albatros D.III Johannistahl, but not of OAW, especially from the period September 1917-March 1918 in Italy. It seems that there was no standard method for applying camouflage colors but the application was left to the discretion of the painter, or the guidelines for applying the colors changed frequently, as is evident in the various camouflages of the Albatros D.V and D.Va.
The camouflage I proposed (inspired by a drawing in the book "J.Herris - Albatros Aircraft of WWI. Volume 4: Fighters-Centennial Perspective") is the result of reasoning through the observation of the horizontal tail plane, light color at the beginning with a clear horizontal separation from the dark color behind. The lower right wing clearly has two different colors, one light and one dark. Apparently there was also a camouflage with only two tones of green, light and dark, but I discarded it because in reality the two-tone camouflage (dark green and light green) was present on the Albatros D.III models of late production by Johannistahl and on the Albatros D.V models of early production.

If anyone has something better to suggest, they are welcome.

[RedLeader1]

Yes, of course. The problem is that there are many photos and color representations of Albatros D.III Johannistahl, but not of OAW, especially from the period September 1917-March 1918 in Italy. It seems that there was no standard method for applying camouflage colors but the application was left to the discretion of the painter, or the guidelines for applying the colors changed frequently, as is evident in the various camouflages of the Albatros D.V and D.Va. . . The lower right wing clearly has two different colors, one light and one dark. Apparently there was also a camouflage with only two tones of green, light and dark, but I discarded it because in reality the two-tone camouflage (dark green and light green) was present on the Albatros D.III models of late production by Johannistahl and on the Albatros D.V models of early production. . .

I disagree.  There are many photos of the Alb. D.III (OAW) types and even some fabric samples.  I suggest for your further viewing to look at "Aviattic" web site.  Mr. Andrews has some very good references and even has whole camouflage layouts in his archive, Italian expert Vittorio Valentino has many images of the Alb. D.III (OAW) in Italy from the 4 German Jastas in the region.

Both of the Albatros Werke companies practice of camouflage was an alternation in most cases of every 50 or so machines between the painted two toned shading and the 5 colour Lozenge printed camouflage.  This is the break down, generally speaking for the Albatros D.III (OAW) as noted by Mr. Dan-San Abbott.
D.1650 - 1849/17, two colour painted.
D.2362 - 2424/17, five colour printed.
D.2425 - 2599/17, two colour painted.
D.2600 - 2661/17, five colour printed.
D.3156 - 3199/17, two colour painted.
D.3200 - 3255/17, five colour printed.
D.5022 - 5071/17, two colour painted.
D.5072 - 5161/17, five colour printed.

https://www.aviattic.co.uk/132-albatros-dv-and-dva.html

https://www.facebook.com/vittorio.valentino.12327

[MG]

Thanks for the valuable information!!

[Brian James Riedel]

Just out of curiosity, is it possible the horns of the Krampus figure were red with a black head. I ask because of the difference in tone in the second photo.

Brian James Riedel

[expositor]

I just noticed this thread, and as it is on a subject I have great interest in, I thought I might chime in....Far be it from me to offer an opinion at odds with those of more expertise than my amateurish view, but I recall an interchange between Dan San
and Ronny of WNW re: color interpretation some 20+ years back in the Aerodrome.  He noted that in monochromatic film the
green was always dark, as were red and yellow.  It turns out that his advice was ignored and the green and mauve/lilac colors
we're reversed in WNW's illustrations.  That said, I believe the rudder color of the photo in question could be green, but I posit that as the wheel covers have a similar shade, both might be red.  As for the camouflage pattern, OAW tended to alternate the green and lilac on the wings, like the D.V, unlike the other Johann. D.IIIs, which tended, so not an absolute, to have the colors on both wings to match.  I believe the upper wing extremities to be green, but due to reflection, it isn't obvious.  Re: Krampus,
his horns might be a yellow or ochre, in contrast to what we expect to be a red tongue.
But hey, what do I know?  I'm just another who stares at the pictures....

Cheerio!
Jim

[expositor]

ORTHO film!!!  Another senior slip for all to see...should have used that Preview feature....

Jim

[expositor]

Wait, my bloody Fire tablet keeps changing words on me.  Man, should have caught that anyway....

[MG]

Just out of curiosity, is it possible the horns of the Krampus figure were red with a black head. I ask because of the difference in tone in the second photo.

Brian James Riedel

The difference in tone of the horns in the close-up photo is given, like the difference in tone of the cross, by the curvature of the upper part of the fuselage under direct light, which also takes a portion of the top of the head. In the photo with the Albatross in full, no difference is noticeable between the horns and the rest of the profile.
So I think it could be an optical effect and not a different color.

[MG]

I just noticed this thread, and as it is on a subject I have great interest in, I thought I might chime in....Far be it from me to offer an opinion at odds with those of more expertise than my amateurish view, but I recall an interchange between Dan San
and Ronny of WNW re: color interpretation some 20+ years back in the Aerodrome.  He noted that in monochromatic film the
green was always dark, as were red and yellow.  It turns out that his advice was ignored and the green and mauve/lilac colors
we're reversed in WNW's illustrations.  That said, I believe the rudder color of the photo in question could be green, but I posit that as the wheel covers have a similar shade, both might be red.  As for the camouflage pattern, OAW tended to alternate the green and lilac on the wings, like the D.V, unlike the other Johann. D.IIIs, which tended, so not an absolute, to have the colors on both wings to match.  I believe the upper wing extremities to be green, but due to reflection, it isn't obvious.  Re: Krampus,
his horns might be a yellow or ochre, in contrast to what we expect to be a red tongue.
But hey, what do I know?  I'm just another who stares at the pictures....

Cheerio!
Jim

I believe that the colors on the surface of the wings are most likely green and purple/lilac. An important but certainly not conclusive help (in the interpretation of colors one always navigates in a sea of ​​suppositions) is given by the two shades on the right wing illuminated as one can see from the shadows of people, by a good light. Is the dark gray green and the light is lilac or vice versa? I have looked at many profiles of Albatros and I have never found the tail rudder (except for some but with the entire plane painted) green, the red generally appears very often dark but differs from the black of the crosses, what appears in the photo could also be red.
All hypotheses are welcome!!!!

[atelier.brunt]

I agree on that the tail most probably isnt green, in my eyes the color shows up too dark compared to the wings green (same goes for liliac, this shows up much lighter in photos as it has a lot of white content the color) and as mentioned its not really seen. If it would the the same green it would be factory applied the same shade as the wing, however there is no evidence this was ever done.
 
As it does differ from the black of the cross, a shade of red would be my guess too, also for the spinner. There are other possibilities like dark blue too, however I would say red makes more sense, being a flashy color and often used for markings.

Black for the devils head I would say is correct. A red head on a varnished wood yellow-orange surface wouldn't have much contrast and visually (in real life) wouldn't be so appealing and striking, which I think was the intent of them. Tongue being red is a good bet.
Regards

[expositor]

Gents, I mentioned the horns being yellow based on the close-up photo with a clear contrast to the rest of the head, with a darker tongue.  An optical effect due to the fuselage curvature would more than likely result in a gradual change in shade;
in that pic, the tone is basically the same from horn tip to the dark haired head.  At a distance, those tonal differences are
not visible. 

As for the wing, the dark color against the fuselage is green.  Lilac would never show as a dark color in that type of film. 
Also, dark blue would appear as light grey and never dark like green, red, and yellow. 

The light green/dark green D.III camou only appeared in an early batch of Johan. planes.

Color interpretations of Allied aircraft photos is easier because the insignias/cockades reveal the film type as they include red and blue together, while the German and Austrian markings are just black and white.


Cheers!

[MG]

Gents, I mentioned the horns being yellow based on the close-up photo with a clear contrast to the rest of the head, with a darker tongue.  An optical effect due to the fuselage curvature would more than likely result in a gradual change in shade;
in that pic, the tone is basically the same from horn tip to the dark haired head.  At a distance, those tonal differences are
not visible. 

As for the wing, the dark color against the fuselage is green.  Lilac would never show as a dark color in that type of film. 
Also, dark blue would appear as light grey and never dark like green, red, and yellow. 

The light green/dark green D.III camou only appeared in an early batch of Johan. planes.

Color interpretations of Allied aircraft photos is easier because the insignias/cockades reveal the film type as they include red and blue together, while the German and Austrian markings are just black and white.


Cheers!

I would exclude the yellow or ochre color for the horns because it would blend in too much with the wooden surface that surrounds them. The fact that they appear lighter for me is an effect of direct light and perhaps also because they are a little faded. Observing the images of the tradition of the early 20th century (not modern) the Krampus appears most of the time completely black. We are not then entering into the field of the interpretation of the Austro-Hungarian colors. I have a Phonix D.I 1/48 that I do not decide to build because I am not at all convinced by the dark brown spotted color on a lighter ochre/brown background that is found on all the profiles, it is such a difficult subject that almost no one dares to tackle, one day someone decided that the color was that and it has always been represented like that, reasons, no logical deductions.

[expositor]

You're assuming varnished plywood is as dark or darker than a darkish yellow or ochre.  The ply fuselage shows dark in that film type as it is pretty light, straw yellow color to quote the late great DanSan. Jasta 10 a/c had chrome yellow noses like the naval planes, and that color obviously differs from the rest of the plane.  We can agree to disagree as there aren't any color absolutes in view of wear and fading, though WW1 a/c tended to be protected from poor weather.
Re: AH a/c pics, I agree, they're tough to interpret.  As I concentrate on naval aircraft, I think the navy Phonix had a light fuselage, as their insignia had red stripes, or bands, so I believe the yellowish ply just appears dark because of said film which shows the red insignia as black.  Later Navy version Phonix(s) may have had that brown or green blotching, but as you said,
it's a hard decision if one craves 'accuracy,' and like you, am reluctant to wing it...but really, who else cares how we finish our models if not in a contest?

Cheers!!!