Author Topic: Decal Softener  (Read 2782 times)

Offline Pete Nottingham

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Decal Softener
« on: February 13, 2013, 09:24:05 PM »
Hi guys;

I've just read an interesting article, where some one uses 'white vinegar' as a decal softening agent, the reason being that all decal softening agents are merely a mild acetic acid, which of course vinegar is.

Has anybody else come across this technique?

Cheers

Pete.

Offline DaveM

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Re: Decal Softener
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2013, 09:56:02 PM »
Hi Pete,
yes,have heard of this and a friend many moons ago has actually used this process but I think he eventually reverted to commercially bought products,I think he said the solution was a bit too strong on its own and resulted in some staining that was hard to eradicate once the decal had set.Another good use of vinegar is to soak P/E frets overnight,rinsed thoroughly the next day.This helps clean off production residue and gently etches the P/E parts that assists in providing a better key for painting.

Dave. 

Offline Pete Nottingham

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Re: Decal Softener
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2013, 10:16:01 PM »
Hi Pete,
yes,have heard of this and a friend many moons ago has actually used this process but I think he eventually reverted to commercially bought products,I think he said the solution was a bit too strong on its own and resulted in some staining that was hard to eradicate once the decal had set.Another good use of vinegar is to soak P/E frets overnight,rinsed thoroughly the next day.This helps clean off production residue and gently etches the P/E parts that assists in providing a better key for painting.

Dave.

Hi Dave;

Perhaps your friend used ordinary vinegar as opposed to white vinegar, which is supposed to be less acidic, also as white vinegar is clear you shouldn't get any staining.

Cheers

Pete.

Offline uncletony

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Re: Decal Softener
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2013, 10:55:51 PM »
White vinegar has a million uses for sure... We buy it by the gallon to use for cleaning around the house... great for cleaning hard water stains from dishes and so on...

Micro Set seems to be mostly acetic acid (smells like vinegar) but I'm not sure about Micro Sol -- it smells quite different, anyway...

Anyway, I guess if you are feeling adventurous this would be fun to experiment with -- for me at this point it's all about reducing the number of variables however  :)

Offline DaveM

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Re: Decal Softener
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2013, 02:39:34 AM »
Hi Pete,
spoke to my friend,and you were correct,indeed it was ordinary vinegar he had used.He also stated that after using the vinegar,his hobby room smelt like a fish and chip shop!

Dave.

Offline ALBATROS1234

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Re: Decal Softener
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2013, 05:46:13 PM »
i thought white vinegar was ordinary vinegar.  i have also noticed(the smell) and heard that decal solution was a vinegar solution. i guess the trick is to get the strength right. so how much distilled water does one add to the white vinegar to make micro sol is the question. it sure is expensive if thats all it is. 

Offline uncletony

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Re: Decal Softener
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2013, 11:16:02 PM »
It's hard to find any real info as to the ingredients, but the consensus out "there" seems to be that both contain acetic acid, water and soda; Sol adds some kind of polymer solvent but what that is I haven't been able to work out --whatever it is is considered non toxic judging by the MSDS (which is pretty sketchy)

Offline Pete Nottingham

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Re: Decal Softener
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2013, 01:21:52 AM »
i thought white vinegar was ordinary vinegar.  i have also noticed(the smell) and heard that decal solution was a vinegar solution. i guess the trick is to get the strength right. so how much distilled water does one add to the white vinegar to make micro sol is the question. it sure is expensive if thats all it is.

Hi Albie;

No, white vinegar is clear and colourless and supposedly less acidic than ordinary vinegar which is the brown coloured kind, also from what I can gather you don't have to add anything to it.

Cheers

Pete.

Offline Nigel Jackson

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Re: Decal Softener
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2013, 02:10:00 AM »
Hi All,

Goodness my range of knowledge is expanding ..... and sometimes in the most unusual areas!

I've wrecked more than my fair share of decals with over-enthusiastic use of proprietary decal softeners. The owner of my local model shop pointed me in the right direction by telling me that it was usually sufficient to just put a couple of drops in the saucer of lukewarm water that I was using to free the decal from the backing sheet.

But now let's search the house for some white vinegar... I'm sure I've seen some somewhere.

Best wishes
Nigel


Offline Pete Nottingham

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Re: Decal Softener
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2013, 02:55:54 AM »

The owner of my local model shop pointed me in the right direction by telling me that it was usually sufficient to just put a couple of drops in the saucer of lukewarm water that I was using to free the decal from the backing sheet.

Best wishes
Nigel

Hi Nigel;

I would be very careful using this technique, as decals can be very delicate anyway and liable to tear, if you add the softener to the water you could compound the problem, the object of the softener is when once you have the decal approximately in place you then apply the softener to pull the decal down around  more complex shapes.

Cheers

Pete.

Offline rowan broadbent

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Re: Decal Softener
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2013, 03:41:26 AM »
I'd like to just clarify some things about the "Decal Softners" and Micro Set and Sol, from a scared (and scarred) decal producer's viewpoint.....

There are two types of decal application fluids, one which is a harmless wetting agent and the other, which is a potentially less benign solvent.

The wetting agent is applied to the surface to be decaled and acts to break or lessen the surface tension between the water and the glue solution released from the decal paper and the surface to which the decal is to be applied, allowing it to be more easily moved around and positioned without "premature grabbing" (girls used to accuse me of that in the back row of the Odeon, many years ago...). A very good and cheap wetting agent is dishwashing liquid and a drop or two added to the warm water into which the decals are momentarily immersed works just as well as expensive "magic potions".

Some solvents are, as I said, potentially damaging to your decal's health. Some are really vicious and others more gentle in their action but they all do the same thing, which is to soften or some can even dissolve the ink that has so carefully been laid down to form the decal. Bear in mind the process used to create screen-printed decals involves the serial printing of a number of ink layers, one on top of the other, starting with white and working progressively darker to black. In some cases there can be as many as six or seven colour layers each one carefully aligned with the one beneath, to ensure correct register of the figure.

Dissolving these layers of ink is, as you can see, a risky business - there is no cast-iron guarantee that they are going to settle back in the order they were laid down...... and the more complex the printing and the more layers of ink, the higher the risk. My advice is avoid the use of solvents - at least on our decals! Having said that, we've experimented with the two Micro products (Set and Sol) and they seem to be OK with our decals  (all printed by Fantasy Printshop) but use at your own risk and be aware that not all printers use the same ink formulations!

As has already been mentioned, yes, some are acetic acid - nothing else, just that- in solution in distilled water (the words "old", "rope", "money" and "for" come to mind...). Others contain Hydrochloric acid and some seem to be made from Sigourney Weaver's alien's blood, judging from the effect they have!

If you want to avoid silvering, always apply decals to a good gloss surface and if you want the decal to conform to tight curves (such as the edge of a rudder or other flying surface) and/or pronounced underlying detail, then use a hair dryer on low/medium heat played briefly across the decal when in place and then carefully smooth/press the decal down with a (CLEAN and damp) finger or thumb or a damp piece of lint-free soft cloth or paper kitchen towel (not tissue paper or loo paper - it sheds bits of paper everywhere and they stick to the surface of the decal and the model - and especially under the decal, for some reason!).

Another very useful technique is the application of Future/Kleer beneath the decal but be sure to move quickly - it dries fast. Practice first !! I recommend  a combination of both these two techniques when dealing with the edges of screen-printed lozenge decals; run a paint brush of Kleer under the edge of the decal, apply the heat and smooth with finger or thumb - removing the excess Kleer in the process - you'll NEVER suffer from decals lifting at the edge or not curling round a wing trailing edge or rudder stripes round the edge of the rudder.  PLEASE practice on an old model to build confidence first, but it is a surprisingly simple, satisfying and easily-mastered technique.
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Offline Nigel Jackson

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Re: Decal Softener
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2013, 04:12:20 AM »
Thanks Pete - indeed a hero member.

Also big thanks Rowan for helping me to get my head around the issues, problems and solutions, It shows just how valuable this forum can be to old duffers like me.

Best wishes
Nigel

Offline ALBATROS1234

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Re: Decal Softener
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2013, 09:21:57 AM »
i would have to strongly reiterate petes statement. i wouldnt add solvent to the water. i have only added a small amount of white glue or dish soap as rowan suggests. i only add decal solvent after the decal is in place and has begun to grab and is in the place you want it to stay. i have prematurely added sol and accidentally touched and moved decals before. once the sol is on the decal becomes very soft and is apt to wrinkle or tear. youre not getting it back where you want it intact if it moves after you got the juice on it. so be careful and patient. decal solvent is something i only use if there is some raised or recessed detail that is likely to cause trapped air. otherwise it just isnt needed. say on a standard wing or rudder for nat markings most cases no sol needed. the hair dryer on loz is great in helpin it conform to ribs. when i first started using the sol i put it on every decal but its pointless unless there is something on the surface detail that is drastic.

Offline Chris Johnson

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Re: Decal Softener
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2013, 10:50:37 AM »
I'd like to just clarify some things about the "Decal Softners" and Micro Set and Sol, from a scared (and scarred) decal producer's viewpoint.....

Thanks for the information and tips you've supplied here Rowan. As always, very useful and delivered with great flair. I always have a good chuckle reading your posts.

Cheers,

Chris
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Offline uncletony

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Re: Decal Softener
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2013, 01:53:20 PM »

Thanks for the information and tips you've supplied here Rowan. As always, very useful and delivered with great flair. I always have a good chuckle reading your posts.

Cheers,

Chris

+1

As an aside : autocorrect fail on my earlier post: "soda" should read "soap"