Author Topic: Fokker seat construction  (Read 1386 times)

Offline ColonelKrypton

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Fokker seat construction
« on: October 27, 2021, 04:54:34 AM »
I have been following Mark's Workbench: 1/72 Arma Hobby Fokker E.V build  https://forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com/index.php?topic=12583.0 with interest as I have the same kit and just starting to dig in on my build.

Frank posted an interesting detail concerning the engine in Mark's thread which got me to thinking about other little details. I try desperately to not get too lost in fine detail minutiae but I do like to do some basic research so as to better understand the subject matter. The devil is in the details and sometimes it is interesting fuss over the details.

As I was reviewing one of Achim Engels web pages on the Fokker D.VIII http://www.collectors-edition.de/f-t-s_FokkerDVIII.htm I noticed a picture and description of the aeroplanes seat which I found quite interesting. Picture is about a fifth of the way down from the top.

The Arma Hobby instructions for their E.V would have you paint the seat olive green front and back.

I also recalled seeing other modelers paint this way and add a bit of extra detail by "chipping" to expose the wood. https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/72nd_aircraft/fokker-e-v-arma-hobby-t11806.html

So now faced with a conundrum, I started to do some reading and searching to see if I could find a most correct answer.

I knew that seats in early aeroplanes where made in a variety ways - wicker, plywood, and aluminum. I also knew that the set in the Fokker DR.I was aluminum with a plywood bottom but wasn't sure if that method continued on through the D.VI, D.VIII and then to the E.V and D.VIII seeing that late war material supplies would have been uncertain.

After much reading and searching making my head spin, making me wiser, but non the less no closer to being expert, I have at least good idea to an answer.

It would seem that Fokker made seats having an aluminum back and plywood base. There is an original Fokker Dr.I seat supposedly from Manfred's DR.I which shows this form of construction.

Opinions of many knowledgeable enthusiasts are that seats in the DR.I and at least the D.VIII had the insides covered with leather or an ersatz (i.e fake or artificial) leather which was sewn to the aluminum back around the top edge o the seat.

There was also a cushion on top of the wooden bottom for the pilot to sit on.

There is also evidence to support Achim Engels' seat. It seems that there is a D.VIII seat in a museum in Italy ( Caproni Museum ) that had the inside front covered with five colour flugzeugstoff  ( i.e lozenge fabric ).


My references:

The Aerodrome web site had some interesting threads:

http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39226&highlight=fokker+d.viii+seat

http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32129

http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26768&highlight=fokker+d.viii+seat

Echim Engels web pages:

http://www.collectors-edition.de/f-t-s_FokkerDVIII.htm   seat picture is about 1/5th way down

http://www.collectors-edition.de/f-t-s_buchbestellung.htm Fokker D.VIII - In Detail - Volume 1 and Fokker D.VIII - In Detail - Volume 2

http://www.collectors-edition.de/Ebaydownloads/InDetail/FokkerD8/FokkerD8InDetailteil1ebook.pdf

http://www.collectors-edition.de/Ebaydownloads/InDetail/FokkerD8/FokkerD8InDetailteil2ebook.pdf

When did the change from the leather covering to the lozenge occur?  Would some DR.I seats have been finished this way?  D.VI's ? D.VII's ?

Earlier Fokker seats where made from wood and leather. I have seen some pictures of early eindekkers having what look like nicely padded leather covered chairs for seats. When was the aluminum style of seat introduced?

I know I how I am going to finish the seat in my Fokker E.V.

cheers, Graham







 

Offline 2996 Victor

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Re: Fokker seat construction
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2021, 06:50:35 PM »
Hi Graham,

this is an extremely interesting topic, and while I share your approach about the fine details its also nice to know what's what and get it right wherever possible.

Thank you for posting all those links, there's some great info there. I'd previously skimmed through Achim Engels' site and ebooks but hadn't cottoned on to the D.VIII seat. Allowing the flugzeugstoffe seat-back covering to effectively "float" is an ingenious and economic way of providing a cushioned back-rest while making use of a readily available commodity.

Luftraum/72's build, that you also linked, is most impressive. I particularly like the seat cushion..... But I think I'll be finishing my seat in aluminium with a lozenge facing!

Cheers,
Mark

Bughunter

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Re: Fokker seat construction
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2021, 07:12:59 PM »
The late E.III or E.IV had a steel frame, wooden bearing surface and alu, plated with linen (or later lozenge) in the back.
Here a Engels Fokker:

Source: collectors-edition.de

Cheers,
Frank

Offline ColonelKrypton

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Re: Fokker seat construction
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2021, 11:33:31 PM »
Very interesting Frank.

Do you have a reference for the use of lozenge on the E.III or E.IV?  I thought those aircraft would have been too early to see the use of lozenge fabric.

In Engels pdf book on his E.III there is a picture on page 33, picture #78 showing the seat. You can clearly see that the frame is made from tube but externally it is covered with a leather like material to give it that "comfy chair" look. I am wondering now if this is just a modern attempt at adding a bit of comfort to the seat and is not period correct. Admittedly my focus on seats was of later Fokker aircraft but now I will have to start paying closer attention to earlier models not to mention Albatros, AEG, Phonix, (etc).



Sometimes it is the small innocuous details that can be interesting.

cheers, Graham


Bughunter

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Re: Fokker seat construction
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2021, 11:47:23 PM »
Do you have a reference for the use of lozenge on the E.III or E.IV?  I thought those aircraft would have been too early to see the use of lozenge fabric.
Sorry Graham, not clearly enough said - give room for misunderstanding!
I meant that the seat construction is very comparable to later Fokker like the D.VII, so there alu+linen on a E.III was then alu+lozenge on a D.VII and other later ones.

Your leather pic is interesting, but I'm not sure if it was usual on all delivered aircraft. May be some special extra for some ace?
There is a "strip down" Fokker E.III in London, but it has only the seat frame (as on yours and my pic) but the back rest and wooden? seat board are missing.

Cheers,
Frank

Offline lcarroll

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Re: Fokker seat construction
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2021, 12:53:04 AM »
Graham,
   There's a wealth of photos of the seat from MvR's 425/17 in the link here. As you'll quickly surmise there's still a lot of support in Canada for the remote (and very unlikely IMHO) theory that Canadian Roy Brown downed the Red Baron. Notwithstanding that the seat is genuine and was donated to the Institute by Captain Brown after the war. I thought you'd enjoy adding this to your research files, I too enjoy that part of the hobby as much as the actual building of our projects!

https://www.google.com/search?source=univ&tbm=isch&q=Red+Barons+seat&client=firefox-b-d&fir=DeQpLc29fgmWfM%25

 Good luck with your efforts on this.
Cheers,
Lance
« Last Edit: October 31, 2021, 03:21:44 AM by lcarroll »

Offline ColonelKrypton

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Re: Fokker seat construction
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2021, 01:49:52 AM »
Thank you Lance.

Very interesting.

cheers, Graham

Offline RAGIII

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Re: Fokker seat construction
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2021, 01:55:29 AM »
One comment on the seat for an EV/DVIII. Parachutes were in common use by the time the EV entered service. The parachute prevented the use and need for a cushion! If wanting an accurate model leave the cushion out of your build  8)
RAGIII
"A man has to know his limitations": Harry Callahan

"Don't slop it on" Lynda Geisler

Offline ColonelKrypton

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Re: Fokker seat construction
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2021, 04:27:39 AM »
Good point regarding parachutes.

As always - check our references.

cheers, Graham

Offline ColonelKrypton

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Re: Fokker seat construction
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2021, 04:33:24 AM »

( Ackk! couldn't figure out why my links didn't show up - I made a mistake and entered them with img tags.  Fixed now )

It looks like Echim Engels and gang have been very busy.

There is an update to his web pages with much new information:

http://www.collectors-edition.de/f-t-s_titel_english.htm

including some interesting construction videos including one on how he makes his reproduction seats:

http://www.collectors-edition.de/f-t-s_buchbestellung_english.htm  the videos are down at the bottom of the page.

And, speaking of videos, they have quite a number on youtube as well:

https://www.youtube.com/user/AchimEngels/videos

I think it is absolutely wonderful that Achim and the gang at Craftlab ( and other groups too ) so freely share their work by making it readily available on the web. 

cheers, Graham

« Last Edit: November 01, 2021, 06:59:45 AM by ColonelKrypton »

Offline 2996 Victor

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Re: Fokker seat construction
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2021, 05:31:04 AM »
Excellent news - I'll have to have another look at his website!

Cheers,
Mark

Offline s.e.charles

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Re: Fokker seat construction
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2022, 07:01:11 PM »
  ... while I share your approach about the fine details its also nice to know what's what and get it right wherever possible....

i have to echo 2996 Victor's assessment. my hobby time is about 85% research, and on occasion i manage to attach a part or two!