Author Topic: RENÉ FONCK SPAD XIII S7000  (Read 392 times)

Offline alfageme

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RENÉ FONCK SPAD XIII S7000
« on: January 22, 2020, 06:54:25 PM »
Hello,
Just purchased 1:72  eduard spad xiii (late) profipack.
https://www.eduard.com/out/media/gallery/716/zoom/00.jpg
One of the chances is to build a René Fonck spad 13 S7000 (Spa. Les cigognes) . After searching on references I can't get any clear picture of such aircraft. There are many with Monsieur Fonck near Spad 12 but none with S700. I've seen S700 mentioned.
¿It is an Eduard mistake?
¿Where can I find a picture of Fonck besides his spad 13?.
Thanks in advance.
Santiago

Offline RLWP

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Re: RENÉ FONCK SPAD XIII S7000
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2020, 07:23:07 PM »


From this excellent website:

http://albindenis.free.fr/Site_escadrille/Rene_Fonck.htm

Is that what you are looking for?



Richard
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Offline alfageme

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Re: RENÉ FONCK SPAD XIII S7000
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2020, 07:58:37 PM »
Thanks a lot Richard,
I was not aware of that link. The picture you include with Fonck showing a einserne souvenir is an early Spad 13 (not camouflaged) S526 or a spad VIi (that cowling!). I am looking for S700 or S700. Teoretically a later Spad and camouflaged. French web page is useful to identify many known Fonck pictures.  And confirm that all the "VI" pictures included  are the two Spad 12 (not 13) S445 &S452 that Fonck flyed.
At least this (apparently serious) page deliver a profile  that you  include in your message: with two differences form Eduard proposal: the machine is labeled S700 (not S7000) and the motor is painted in green (not in blue).
But again I would like to find the real picture of such profile is based on.
Thank you very much.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2020, 10:48:45 PM by alfageme »

Offline RLWP

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Hendon for flying - the fastest way to the ground!

Offline alfageme

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Re: RENÉ FONCK SPAD XIII S7000
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2020, 08:56:31 PM »
I thinK  that well kown picture  is a Spad 12.  I seems to have a sole machine gun. Spads 13 have 2.
One of the differences between 12 and 13 (late) is the central struts:
- Spad 12: 4 struts and perpendicular to the upper wing
- Spad 13 (late): 6 struts and all tilted

There is an Spad 13 behind in this picture. But it seems to be an early exemplar (without camo):



This video although labeled as 13. Again it seems to have only a machine gun but I am not quite sure:
https://youtu.be/Ra9K5dylGc8


« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 11:18:27 PM by alfageme »

Offline RLWP

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Re: RENÉ FONCK SPAD XIII S7000
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2020, 04:15:41 AM »
From that video:



Spad XII

I think you are very close to your answer - the Eduard scheme is wrong

Richard
Hendon for flying - the fastest way to the ground!

Offline alfageme

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Re: RENÉ FONCK SPAD XIII S7000
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2020, 10:59:32 PM »
You are right, I am close to the truth. But after fixing the puzzle.
First of all, I have to say that previous research to build a model is one of the most appealing issues related with the hobby. Said that, I am really amazed about the scarce information of Fonck’s aircrafts. If you compare the plethora of  Red Baron’s books, drawings and forum discussions, his allied counterpart, Fonck the  “as des as” is actually  near to ignorance.

Just think about how many plastic models are devoted to Manfred and how many to René. Somehow is understandable: ask someone (your bored acquaintances about your hobby… for instance)  who is the best known ww1 german pilot… and secondly ask for the best Great War allied pilot. I did it.  Majority   will give a right answer for the first question and no idea for the second one.
In my opinion, aside from trouble Fonck’s personality (by the way, like many others), he was an excellent pilot. I want to have a representation of his SPAD XIII as I have a red triplane a usual.   Specially the one he flied on 9th may 1918. He scored 6 victories whitin 24 hours! That machine deserves a model. But it is not so easy to build an accurate one.

Let see the puzzle pieces (and research process):
1.   1:72 Eduard Spad XIII (Late) delivers a Fonck Spad 13 (number S7000) schema dated in “1918 Fall”. That is not May. Let’s see if that is the right one.

2.   Jon Guttman in his Osprey “Spad Xii/Xiii aces of ww1” affirm that Fonck had two Spads One labelled with an “VI”and other with a “IX”. Jon doesn’t provide serial numbers.

3.   First question: What kind of Spad was piloted by Fonck at 9th May 1918?. According to this list, he flied a Spad 13 (S700):
http://www.as14-18.net/Fonck

4.   Is there any serial  Spad numbers list?. Yes, it is:
http://albindenis.free.fr/Site_escadrille/Societe_SPAD.htm
you can see a S700, delivered to SPA 103 ‘Les cigognes’ (Foncks escadrille)  in May and  a S7000 to escadrille 103 as well!. But  month of the late is not registered.

5.   Any reference about colors, numerals and so on? In the Avions magazine (nr. 166 Nov./Dec. 2008) devoted to  French  important pilots in 1918, you can find a description of S700 used by Fonck :
Spad XIII N° 700 de René Fonck Spa103 Hétomesnil Mai 1918 codé 'VI' rouge insigne cigogne de l'escadrille-Capot vert moyen
A green band on the cowl instead of a blue one!.

6.   Last question:  Is there any picture of such an important aircraft?.  It will be good to know which kind of Spad 13  was: a late or an earlier one. Spads 13 were delivered to the front about one year ago (1917 April) and  obviously ‘Les cigognes’ were one of the first units to receive the new type.  And here come the mess. Two chances:

Early version: If S700 is an earlier spad 13 version it is difficult to distinguish from spad 12  because decoration is  equal to S452 and S455, the two 12 canone versions used by René.  There is only one important difference: the number of machine guns. One for 12 version and two for the 13.  But 12 and 13 (early) have 4 central struts. 12 perpendicular and 13 tiled.  General poor quality of contemporaneous pictures give few chances to observe such details.

Late version: Three  differences: round tips on wings (early) against  squared (late), louvres on front of the cowling and 6 central struts instead of 4 (early).
Finally a recent French ( Le Fana de l’aviation N°595 juin 2019) magazine article  (six d’un coup!) about that outstanding 9th mai  includes a well known picture previously labelled as a Spad 12 saying it’s  Spad  13 S700:


I think you can barely  see two machine guns and more clearly louvres on the inferior part of the  front of the cowling. Another picture from the same machine shows square tips (late spad). But 4 central struts!:


CONCLUSION: If you want to build a real 1:72   Spad xiii historic exemplar:
-   Take  Eduard’s  Spad 13 late version kit
-   Erase a 0 on serial number.
-   Take off 2 of the six central struts (the foremost ones).
-   Make extra louvers on lateral cowl access panels (on the photoetch).
-   Paint the cowl band in green instead of blue

Sorry for the pain, but I would like to show a process to get information to build   a more accurate model and not simply  follow the drawing  included on the Eduard instruction sheet. If accuracy matters.  :)
« Last Edit: January 30, 2020, 05:29:24 PM by alfageme »

Offline Radarman

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Re: RENÉ FONCK SPAD XIII S7000
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2020, 12:24:01 AM »
Fantastic research! Thanks for passing on your investigation.

                                                                    Kevin
We are all victims of history!