Looking for a photo of French map holder as used on Nieuport 11 & 17

[davecww1]

Wondering if anyone has a clear photo or drawing of the map holder used in the Nieuport 11 & 16.  It looks kind of like a frame with two rollers and the map must be able to roll across the frame to view various areas?  Attached is a low res scan of this map holder in McConnell's Nieuport.  Looks like it is just resting on the cross brace tube which usually has a couple of gauges attached to the right hand side. Not sure if any are in museums, but would love to see more.
Thanks
Dave

[lcarroll]

Dave,
    This photo is a common one, a Siemens Schuckert DIII flown by an American Pilot immediate post war. Chances are the Map "Roller" is of French origin (IMHO) and it looks the same as in your photo as near as I can discern. Hope this is of some help.




Cheers,
Lance

[davecww1]

Great photo Lance!  looks like an easy item to scratchbuild with sheet plastic and rod.  Now who can guess what color it was?  Not sure if it was made of wood or metal.
Dave

[uncletony]

I think it is made of wood. If it were sheetmetal there would likely be embossed ridges on the sides (to keep them from buckling), screw heads or rivets or tabs visible, etc.

[davecww1]

Sounds correct Bo.  Well I printed out Lance's photo and measured a known dimension, the aileron crank closest to the map roller and compared that dimension to the aileron crank on Eduard's 1/48 SSW D.III kit.  I know that these dimensions may not be accurate due to the angle of the photo and whether or not Eduard's aileron crank is the correct size, but  did a little calculating and came out with these dimensions. (rounded to the closest mm)
Aileron horn: Photo size 28mm  1/48 size 5mm  1/1 size 240mm
Map holder
Side length:  Photo size 38mm  1/48 size  7mm  1/1 size 326mm
Side height:  Photo size   7mm  1/48 size  1mm  1/1 size 60mm
Width:           Photo size 32mm  1/48 size  6mm  1/1 size 274mm
Knob center
to center       Photo size  27mm  1/48 size  5mm  1/1 size 231mm

So you can use the 1/1 size and divide by your scale to get correct size for your scale.  This should be close enough to be accurate in 1/48 scale, not sure how it would work for 1/32 but probably very well unless someone has access to the actual item that they can measure.

Dave

[davecww1]

Found some more info, the ones used by Lafayette were metal, but there were wooden ones used as well, which is probably what was used in the photo Lance posted.  here are a couple of photos I have found on the Aerodrome, one has good photos of the metal one used in Vernon Castle's Nieuport 17 and another shows the wooden one at the NASM from the Voisin bomber they have on display. 

[davecww1]

Here is the one from Vernon Castle's Nieuport 17.

[davecww1]

And the wooden one from the Voisin at NASM, this is probably the same style used in the Nieuport 28 and the SSW in Lance's photo.

[lcarroll]

Dave,
    Looks identical to the SSW Version, and not hard to duplicate. It amazes me how similar this is to the system I used back "in the day"  on the CF5  in the immediate pre-automated (read computer days) of  in the late 70's. We'd manually plot our own maps, cut them and fold them in strips, and roar off with a bomb load and stop watch to penetrate low level and do a low level delivery. Great fun but tactically questionable frankly! Instead of a roller frame like this we'd simply keep turning them over to the next section of the strip map. If I were to include this feature on a Nieuport I'd go for the wood version, I'd guess the metal version came later.
Cheers,
Lance

[davecww1]

No it shows McConnell and Lufbery looking at the metal one in a photo dated 1917. these are the guys flying the Nieuports that I'm modeling so I'm going with the metal one for the Nieuports.  they probably had both types wood and metal but probably depended on what type of plane you were flying which type you were issued.

[lcarroll]

   Can't dispute your logic here, Dave, it makes sense given the date of the photograph for sure. Either version should be an easy project, a very simple but effective "house keeping" device. These Guys had very little if any technology to help them with keeping track of where they were or how to get back home, the old watch, map, ground reference was "it" period.
Cheers,
Lance

[uncletony]

Great bit of digging there, Dave. I would guess "wood or metal" would have come down to a matter of chance -- this type of equipment might not have even been issued but rather was up to the personnel to procure (again, a guess, but not without some basis).

As I am sure I don't need to tell you, our modern ideas of standardized equipment, instrumentation etc just don't completely apply to this era...