forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com
The WW1 modelers' reference library => Markings and Camouflage => Topic started by: andonio64 on May 29, 2018, 06:38:46 PM
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Hallo,
next to the Breguet XIV I have in my "to model" list the Sopwith TF2 Salamander.
I was researching the web and some of the books in my bookshelves and all I found is a description in Les Rogers "British Aviation Squadron Markings in World War 1": on page 19 he wrote (also quoted by Dan San Abbot on The Aerodrome)
http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/showpost.php?p=227397&postcount=2
"A camouflage scheme for ground aircraft and tried on a Sopwith Salamander consisted of five colours dark purple, green, light earth, light green /grey, outlined in 2 inch black lines, The wing cockades were dark red centre then light earth with a dark blue outer ring. The scheme was considered quite good for Autumn and winter but other colours would be needed for Spring and Summer."
I have found Mr.kit colours (I will post a photo of come colours chips I made, but later tonight)
Salamander Brown (dark purple?)
Salamander Light Earth
Salamander Black
Salamander Green
Salamander Light Green
They are 4 colours plus black, while Dan talks about 5 colours, Dark Purple is not in the Mr.kit catalogue, maybe I can replace it with a similar one, any idea?
By the way I have found only these photos on the RAF museum website:
(https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/images/andrew_dennis/julianNewFolder/camouflage/X003-2602-16493sal.jpg)
(https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/images/andrew_dennis/julianNewFolder/camouflage/X003-2602-16494sal.jpg)
And I would like to find a correspondence between the colours and the areas on those original photos.
The Port side of the fuselage is not shown, and I did not find any information about the undersurfaces (which were probably plain CDL).
Is there any source indicating the colours of the different camo areas, any book to read?
Thanks for sharing your knowledge!
:-)
Antonio
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Here is the picture of the Mr.Kit Colours:
(http://www.andonio.it/model/salamander/chips.jpg)
The numbers of the chips refer to the different colours (1, 2, 3 are Italian camouflage tests):
MK-BC13 Salamander Black ( 4 - just used for the outline of the camo areas)
MK-BC10 Salamander Light Green ( 5 )
MK-BC12 Salamander Light Earth ( 6 )
MK-BC11 Salamander Brown ( 7 )
MK-BC09 Salamander Green ( 8 )
PURPLE (missing from the chips) ( X )
Then I took the RAF museum pictures and tried to identify the different areas marking them with letters (same letter = same colour - at least in my opinion) .
(http://www.andonio.it/model/salamander/salamander-4.jpg)
Apart from knowing what happens on the port side of the fuselage, it would be a great step to match letters on the photo and numbers of the paint chips.
I will share later today or tomorrow a basic hypothesys on the port side of the fuselage.
Antonio
PS Unfortunately I have the 1:72 TOKO kit but I would eagerly buy the Hi Tech 1/48 kit.
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Here I tried to trace the contours of the camo areas, imagining a very simple Port side...
(http://www.andonio.it/model/salamander/wings.png)
(http://www.andonio.it/model/salamander/fuselage.png)
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I don't know how much this will help but here is a link to several Modelers interpretation on the WW1 Modelers page. RAGIII
http://www.wwi-models.org/app/sbj/srch/Macn.php?action=uModelList&subjId=316
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Thank you Rick!
:-)
Steve Cox and Bill Arnold seem to have followed at least the contours I have traced from the RAF museum pics...
Antonio
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Volume 2-2 of the Great War SIG newsletter has a good article on building the Hi-Tech Salamander by Hugh Beyts, see here (page 30): https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4x0GQLi-Oj2SXo0Skg4aDJyTlk/edit (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4x0GQLi-Oj2SXo0Skg4aDJyTlk/edit)
Hugh is an excellent modeller who always likes to research his subjects, and the article has some good comments on the colour scheme.
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Thanks Nigel, it's an interesting view, I will read it later.
The undersides of the lower wing are dark brown...
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I can quite believe that the undersides of RFC aircraft whose pilots had continuously to fly low over the murderous fire from enemy trenches would be covered in brown matter!
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;D ;D ;D ;D
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I went through Hugh Beyts' piece in the "Ami Cher vol 2-2" publication, and it does not give many indications about the colours.
He is right when he says the colors of the upper wing roundels are modified with respect to "normal" RFC roundels, on the RAF museum website we read (https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/blog/concealment-illusion-and-manifestation/ (https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/blog/concealment-illusion-and-manifestation/)):
<<
The red and blue areas of the upper surface roundels were darkened and the white areas replaced with light grey-green. Meanwhile, the lower surface roundels were made as clear as possible to nullify the chances of “friendly fire.”
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Hugh painted the undersurfaces of the top wings and the wing struts in light green (5) and the undersurfaces of the bottom wings in Dark Purple, and it appears to me a good choice, although I have found no information on that.
The lower wings roundels in Hugh's interpretation have a thin white outline, that is plausible since that they had to be "as clear as possible"...
Friday I will buy "Model AIRCRAFT Monthly January 2007" if still available to check how they interpreted the other colours.
At the moment I have scratched all the money on my credit card 'cause I've paid my summer holidays...
:-0
Antonio
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That back issue might be hard to find, I only found one rather odd looking site that claimed to have it.
I will try to get in touch with Hugh and see if he still has that article, I may be able to get a scan for you if you cannot find the back issue anywhere.
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Thanks Nigel that's a very kind offer.
I would appreciate to have a scan of that article.
Antonio
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Antonio, I have scans of the back issue. Please reply to the PM I just sent you.
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Thanks Nigel!
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But wait, there's more!
https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2018/05/22/sopwith-salamander/ (https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2018/05/22/sopwith-salamander/)
(https://weaponsandwarfare.files.wordpress.com/2018/05/fgbbgf.jpg)
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Thanks Tom, I had the schemas but the article is interesting as well.
WIll keep them aside for the moment I will start the build.
Antonio
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Hi Antonio,
I don't know if you are looking for more infos on the subject. Because I read it now your request and I have two pieces appeared in two old numbers of Windsock International.
I'm also the one that preparing the chips for MisterKit WWI paints (with Alberto Casirati). So I can help you.
Let me know!
Roberto
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Yes Roberto, I am still gathering info about this beautiful camo, I also bought the MRKit colors, but I still have not a final detailed painting plan for the plane.
I have the old 1/72 TOKO kit... one day I will dust the box and start it!
Tell me in a PM what you can share with me.
Thanks
Antonio
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Oh, that a interesting thread!
I have the kit from Hi-Tech in 1/48 in my stash, so this is very useful, if I start the kit some time in future.
Cheers,
Frank
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Hi gents!
As I ever suspected, there was not only ONE Salamander with experimental camo. So, I came across this page:
https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2018/05/22/sopwith-salamander/
There are 4 different style of schemes, unlucky not with photo proofs.
Hope useful!
Roberto