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WW1 Aircraft Modeling => WW1 Aircraft Dioramas => Topic started by: kentyler on February 14, 2018, 02:57:43 PM

Title: Sopwith Camel diorama
Post by: kentyler on February 14, 2018, 02:57:43 PM
I got this book  "Building the wingnut wings sopwith camels"
it has a great picture of the royal aeronautical society's  ex-nas collection F1 camel before its restoration
it struck me it would make a great diorama
so i'm looking for any other information or pictures of this aircraft before or during its restoration
I will not probably try to get 100% historical accuracy... i may put in some details just because they are so cool :)
Thanks in advance for any pointers

The photo used to illustrate this topic is a copyrighted image and has been removed by the Forum Moderator

Sorry folks, I got so carried away with my enthusiasm for this model and the wealth of detail in Ray Rimell's book (great book!) that i posted a couple of pictures from it without thinking to get his permission first. My apologies.
Ken Tyler
Title: Re: Sopwith Camel diorama
Post by: lone modeller on February 15, 2018, 04:42:09 AM
That looks like a very interesting challenge. Good luck with it.

Stephen.
Title: Re: Sopwith Camel diorama
Post by: coyotemagic on February 15, 2018, 05:31:36 AM
Cool idea!  Looking forward to it.
Cheers,
Bud
Title: usually i build my own custom parts
Post by: kentyler on February 16, 2018, 02:57:43 AM
but, for a change, i thought i'd look for an aftermarket engine.... found one that looks good
Title: i have the "USAS" model of the camel
Post by: kentyler on February 16, 2018, 03:05:36 AM
and it includes a clerget 9b engine

i've found a few images to help fill in what the parts of the fusalage that are not visible in my photo might look like. i like the way the fabric hangs down revealing a little of the frame beneath.. i might use that

not really trying for an exact duplicate of the photo...just using it as an inspiration

Please note that the photos used to illustrate this thread are copyright images and have been removed by the Forum Moderator
Title: Re: Sopwith Camel diorama
Post by: kentyler on February 17, 2018, 12:54:09 AM
So the first step will be to figure out which parts will remain in the fuselage and which will have been disassembled and be stacked on the wall or laid on the floor

The big ones that have been removed from the plane will be the wings and tail section. I'm thinking i will do at least one wing either without fabric or with the fabric peeled back on one side.
The tail section i may do without fabric, to show the metal/wood construction

The wheels are removed and the plane is on blocks. One wheel should probably be without its fabric covers to show the spokes

The guns have been removed and are laying on the ground as is the wicker seat

I will have to make a part by part judgement of which instruments, etc are still in the cockpit and which have been removed and should be displayed in a box or something

The whole thing will call for some interesting "weathering"  a little rust and a lot of dust

Usually i try to include a figure or 2, but in this case the plane itself becomes the "figure"


Title: spoked wheel
Post by: kentyler on February 18, 2018, 01:17:40 AM
i can find german spoke wheels, some for newports, but none for the camel...does anyone know of a source
Title: Re: Sopwith Camel diorama
Post by: krow113 on February 18, 2018, 03:34:39 AM
Google;
Scale Spokes
Title: scale spokes
Post by: kentyler on February 18, 2018, 03:53:30 AM
already looked there,
they don't offer for camel

thanks for the idea
ken
Title: Re: Sopwith Camel diorama
Post by: krow113 on February 18, 2018, 04:10:20 AM
Then you will have to make your own.
I suggest dimensioning the tires and find an appropriate o-ring to start.
Once the material is sourced and a procedure settled on , its not too hard to lace up a wheel. Jigs are most likely needed as well.
When I put some thinking on this , for my 1/9 scale m/c models , there are a number of ways to do it.
Starting with the hub a piece of brass tubing with 2 re-purposed p/e prop boss' could work. Look into the way MFH has been doing the hubs on their Brough Superior kit.
Lots of modellers use the removal and repurpose technique , ie: remove the centers of the kit wheels and drill for spokes , then lace as needed.
The Scale Spoke sets are nice but there is still a center rim joint line , nothing wrong with that just a pet peeve of mine when it comes to spoked wheels.
I have myself done spoked wheels with cast resin hubs and rims ( not a good idea) , cast metal rims and hubs ,(much better) , examples:
Resin:
(https://image.ibb.co/cqmvVR/cright3.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
Metal:
(https://preview.ibb.co/feEp7m/IMG_0961.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d7dGnm)
As I have stated a few times recently , go back to a primary source and go over Des' scratchbuilding tutorials on the website.
Title: thanks steve
Post by: kentyler on February 18, 2018, 05:30:13 AM
good advice on the wheels
i usually scratch build small parts like that out of paper and oven hardening clay
it will be an adventure
in this case some wire will be required, of course
Title: Re: Sopwith Camel diorama
Post by: krow113 on February 18, 2018, 05:55:38 AM
A key point of info;
The lacing procedure can install tension in the wheel. At 38 out of 40 spokes (in this case) you don't want this:
(https://preview.ibb.co/b5oKVn/IMG_0243.jpg) (https://ibb.co/im2PwS)
So material sourcing indicates metal components.
Good luck with it!
Title: Re: Sopwith Camel diorama
Post by: uncletony on February 18, 2018, 06:28:15 AM
Ask Richard Andrews @ aviattic if they still have leftover PE frets for the P&M motorcycle. They are/were the same diameter as many scout wheels (same PE is used for the Balilla wheels if I'm not mistaken) -- don't have a Camel handy, so I can't check if dia is correct, but I can say they build up quite nicely with the right rim & axle
Title: Re: Sopwith Camel diorama
Post by: Borsos on February 18, 2018, 10:11:05 AM
(http://part.pl/s32/s32030.jpg)

That is set no. S32030 from Part, Poland. It's intented for the Academy Camel, but could be handy here nevertheless. Part PE sets are available via Jadarhobby, Poland. https://www.jadarhobby.pl/index.php?language=en I ordered there once or twice in the past and they offer a good service
Title: "wire" wheels
Post by: kentyler on February 18, 2018, 12:16:21 PM
tried an experiment
i think i can get this "wire" down small enough to use for spokes
bamboo has the advantage that you don't have to put it under tension for it to be straight
Title: Re: Sopwith Camel diorama
Post by: kentyler on February 18, 2018, 12:17:46 PM
i cut a few parts from their sprue's to start getting some ideas about how big a baseboard i'm going to need
Title: building a frame for the tail section
Post by: kentyler on February 19, 2018, 10:20:10 AM
so the museum plane has a bare fuselage back to behind the end of the pilot's compartment
i don't think i will be able to convincingly stick the fuselage onto the tail section... so my plan is to build the full fuselage bare and then add back on the canvas covering for the tail section
Title: Re: Sopwith Camel diorama
Post by: krow113 on February 19, 2018, 11:11:47 AM
...those p/e spokes look promising...
Title: giving tarus a try
Post by: kentyler on February 19, 2018, 11:52:08 AM
i shopped for a cast clerget engine...but everyone seems to be out of stock
so i decided to try tarus monospaupe
looks like it will be a model in and of itself
but sense it sits right out in front in this diorama, with no cowl or anything
it will be the focus of attention
Title: building the cockpit
Post by: kentyler on February 19, 2018, 11:55:45 AM
after further looking at plans my first "cut" at where the bare part of the fuselage would end is wrong
i've attached a photo with my finger pointing to the point on the kit cockpit frame where the fabric covering will end
it looks like the kit contains side detail, but not of the cross braces that define the cockpit
that will be fun
seat and gas tank will be outside on the ground
haven't decided whether to pull the instrument panel and put it outside as well
Title: Re: Sopwith Camel diorama
Post by: krow113 on February 20, 2018, 01:25:37 PM
Tom's model works has p/e wheel sets...
http://www.tomsmodelworks.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22_30&products_id=231
Title: Re: Sopwith Camel diorama
Post by: kentyler on February 20, 2018, 02:53:53 PM
good link,
thanks
i may order a set
have to check the tire size
Title: Re: Sopwith Camel diorama
Post by: RAGIII on February 21, 2018, 01:15:31 AM
I don't know if you would be interested but I have a Part PE set designed for the Hobbycraft Camel. It has PE spoked wheels amongst other things. I will never use it so not looking for much. PM me if interested. By the way, I am looking forward to following along with your build.

RAGIII
Title: thanks raggi
Post by: kentyler on February 26, 2018, 03:15:04 PM
where are you mailing it from ? How about 5$ USD ?

slow progress here
had to order some evergreen plastic square pieces

good luck... one fits pretty exactly

the problem is that the frame provided for the sides of the cockpit is really only half as thick as it should be... since the fuselage shell covers it on the outside... so i will have to glue on pieces and then shape them to bring things to "full" size.  we'll see how it goes... it might work better to just rebuilt the whole wood frame around the cockpit, especially since i plan on carrying it back into the tail section
Title: Re: thanks raggi
Post by: RAGIII on February 27, 2018, 01:17:54 AM
where are you mailing it from ? How about 5$ USD ?



I sent you a PM. Just click on Messages.
RAGIII
Title: Re: Sopwith Camel diorama
Post by: uncletony on March 03, 2018, 11:55:29 PM
http://www.gaspatchmodels.com/products/palmer-700x75-spoked-wheels-1-32.html
Title: streching sprue
Post by: kentyler on March 04, 2018, 01:31:35 PM
went down and bought some plastic rods, but, not thin enough
so had to stretch some sprue
Title: extra
Post by: kentyler on March 04, 2018, 01:34:19 PM
always have to stretch a lot more sprue that you end up using... at least i do... can't control the size really
found some likely pieces and cut the uprights for the frame
Title: and then the hardest part
Post by: kentyler on March 04, 2018, 01:36:51 PM
for me anyway
bending to shape and gluing
Title: bend and fit
Post by: kentyler on March 05, 2018, 03:58:41 AM
after sad experiences trying to use the glue to enforce bending i know keep bending and trying and bending and trying until i think i have the curve i need
Title: now we try the tail plane
Post by: kentyler on March 06, 2018, 10:49:55 AM
same start
lay out the outline to use to build up our framework
Title: then we add the major cross pieces
Post by: kentyler on March 06, 2018, 10:51:47 AM
i'm using round pieces for the leading edge and trailing edge
i sanded a double taper on a square piece to use as the frame cross member
Title: now the fun part
Post by: kentyler on March 06, 2018, 10:53:22 AM
i cut the strips that will be the top and bottom of the wooden pieces that define the front section
Title: more tail
Post by: kentyler on March 11, 2018, 01:48:02 PM
the only sheet i could find thin enough was black
Title: more tail
Post by: kentyler on March 11, 2018, 01:49:23 PM
after i got the strips glued i shaped the rods that define both ends
Title: Re: Sopwith Camel diorama
Post by: kentyler on March 11, 2018, 01:50:50 PM
after getting all the strips on one side i carefully separated the tail from the cardboard and added the strips on the other side
Title: here's the bashed tail sitting on the kit tail
Post by: kentyler on March 11, 2018, 01:52:31 PM
i still have to add the spacer blocks between the strips, the bracing wires and the little metal reinforcements on some of the joints
Title: Re: Sopwith Camel diorama
Post by: lone modeller on March 12, 2018, 03:54:01 AM
Excellent bit of scratchbuilding.

Stephen.
Title: Re: Sopwith Camel diorama
Post by: kentyler on March 12, 2018, 06:32:53 AM
thanks,
the fun part will be painting it
since i'm using liquid cement i figured painting first then the paint would be ruined by the glue
Title: back at it
Post by: kentyler on April 22, 2018, 12:14:22 PM
layout out the frame
Title: Re: Sopwith Camel diorama
Post by: kentyler on April 22, 2018, 12:17:46 PM
filling in the ribs
Title: Re: Sopwith Camel diorama
Post by: kentyler on April 22, 2018, 12:23:00 PM
the fiddly bits... a little oversize... but as small as i can make them