forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com
WW1 Aircraft Modeling => WW1 Aircraft Information/Questions => Topic started by: ondra on November 06, 2017, 07:46:35 PM
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Dear forumites,
the next subject on my build list will be the Sopwith Camel, currently I am looking for the colour scheme of my choice and would like to ask you for help.
At the time being, the options are:
- Donald Mac Laren's LeRhone powered F2137
- A. R. Brown's BR.1 powered B7270
- Raymond Collishaw's BR.1 powered B 6390
- W. G. Barker's Clerget powered B6313
Each of them features certain obstacles, so it would be a great help for me if you could suggest another scheme fulfilling the following points to make my life easier. :)
- !CORRECTION! LeRhóne engine would be the easiest one to produce (to avoid the double push rods on the front side)
- I would LOVE to have a Camel with unpainted wooden panels
- an aircraft flown by a famous ace or with a story behind would be very welcome
So far I have started some very basic drawing to get familiar with her. ;)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4476/26433163039_c294202a88_b.jpg)
Many thanks for your help!
Cheers
Ondra
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Isn't that the wrong way around? The Clerget has the pushrods:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3b/Clerget_9B.jpg/689px-Clerget_9B.jpg)
The LeRhone has the plain front:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ee/Le_Rhone_Model_9J_1.jpg/449px-Le_Rhone_Model_9J_1.jpg)
Both images from Wikipedia
Richard
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Well spotted, Richard, thanks for the warning! I will correct the original post.
Cheers
Ondra
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Barker's, hands down. if i'm not mistaken no other airframe accounted for as many enemies as Barker's Camel.
I am a HUGE Collishaw fan but that's his seaplane defense kite. yeah it's a Black Mariah but not one of THE Black Mariahs.
that said, you can't go far wrong with MacLaren either. especially if you like chipped paint.
i'm particularly in awe of these three guys and i'm not even Canadian.
if you're PC10'd out (The Horror) and want a pretty, colorful one there's a training squadron camel that's a pretty blue and, due to its pilot having served in Egypt, has a picture of CLeopatra on the fuse. the Cleopatra looks just like Emily the Strange, further evidence that EVERYTHING was invented during WWI.
looking forward to seeing what you do with this. i'll be one of those anonymous guys in the 3rd wave of camels...
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Ondra,
As a great fan of your work I have to get my preferences to you, after all, you did ask for help choosing a color scheme!
Four choices, all Canadian Aces, and being a good Canadian boy with 37 years of service in the "light blue", Canadian subjects are at the top of my criteria list for subject choice. I'd love to see you do Barker's B 6313, a colorful scheme and the all time top scoring Camel, it doesn't get any better! I'm working on MacLaren's chipped wonder, and hope to do one of each of the versions and my list of preferred options pretty well mirrors yours., the exception being my Bentley choice is definitely Roy Brown's 7270. I already have Collishaw's Black Maria Tripe on my shelf. Should you choose the Barker option his Snipe could logically follow........
I'm looking forward to this one, your choice, whatever it is I know it will shine! :)
Cheers,
Lance
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Many thanks for your inputs and advices, guys!
So far it looks like Barker's machine will be the winner, as the camo is really attractive and seems to be largely handleable using masks. The only element I will have to find a solution for is the heart with the arrow on the rudder fin.
I am basically finished with the basic drawing, so soon it will be time to start implementing the adjustments specific to this particular maching.
Cheers
Ondra
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Barkers would be my choice, it really should have been preserved. It went a year in combat from the Western front to the Italian front. Which arguably makes it the longest operational Camel of the war.
During that time it had more than one redope, new upper wing, multiple undercarriages and engine changes. this makes it a very unusual aircraft for the time. I wonder if it lasted because Barker didnt want to give it up or if on the Italian front they didn’t get as many new aircraft so had to make do.
Ray
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Right, definitely one of the most iconic Camels I can think of.
Looking at the colour scheme in the WNW instructions, I am wondering what colours were used. The cowling is for sure high gloss finish appearing significantly darker than the canvas covered parts. On the other hand, the rudder fin also appears to be darker that the canvas on the fuselage, the same applies for the wheel covers. Last but not least, looking at the WNW instructions again, there seems to be a different shade on the upper side of the wings, except ailerons.
Anyone having a hint about this? I searched a few threads on TheAerodrome, but without success so far.
Cheers
Ondra
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Oh Ondra, I missed this thread, but I can suggest a colorful Camel ;D
(https://www.eduard.com/store/out/pictures/z1/1122.jpg)
Source: eduard.com
Kit: Limited 1122
But stop: you wanted wooden panels, what about this one?
(https://www.eduard.com/store/out/pictures/z1/8058.jpg)
Source: eduard.com
Kit: 8058, Sopwith Camel 2F.1, Cpt. B.A.Smart,Tondern raid, July 19 1918 (I have it in my stash).
It would be really interesting to your painting of the red chess board in 1:144, that would be amazing!
But I'm sure, you will find the right Camel for build!
Cheers,
Frank
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Ondra,
If you can pull off a checkerboard in 1/144 Scale I believe my head would explode!! (but judging by your work it would be no surprise!) :o :)
Cheers,
Lance
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Right, definitely one of the most iconic Camels I can think of.
Looking at the colour scheme in the WNW instructions, I am wondering what colours were used. The cowling is for sure high gloss finish appearing significantly darker than the canvas covered parts. On the other hand, the rudder fin also appears to be darker that the canvas on the fuselage, the same applies for the wheel covers.
Ondra
I believe at least during part of the time, the cowling and tailplane were gloss black, with the arrow through the heart on the tailplane. Oh and don’t forget about the red devil car hood ornament on the bickers starboard gun. That’s all pretty much been hashed many times in the past. The tailplane I think is preserved ar the RAF museum if I Remember correctly
Here is a link to Bob Pearsons interpretations during the history of the aircraft
http://www.cbrnp.com/profiles/quarter1/barkers-camel.htm
A link to the image of the tailplane at the raf museum
https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documents/Cosford/Aviation%20Nose%20Art.pdf
A good image of Barker and the aircraft is on this page.
https://www.thisdayinaviation.com/27-october-1918/
Hth’s
Ray
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Barker's plane would be my choice within the four.
And I'm sure this will be another great build anyone you will choose.
Ciao
Giuseppe
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Many thanks for your input, gentlemen!
@Bughunter: the schemes you have posted look both very nice and definitely would be an eyecatcher in my display cabinet. So far I am afraid pulling of a checkerboard in this scale on a curved area like camel's cowling would be beyond my skills, but I will definitely give it a try. ;)
@rayb24: many thanks for the links you have posted, while looking at Bob Pearson's interpretation I guess I have found my favourite - the final version of Barker's Camel from Sep 1918 - aluminium cowling, wooden panels - the essence of WWI aircraft. Many thanks once again.
I will leave the final choice open, though, as I would like to use a new method to create the fuselage on this build - vacuforming. As this should allow for an easy creation of several pieces, there is an option of building more Camels at once... But will see. ;)
Cheers
Ondra
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One more question, dear forumites. The text by Bob Pearson says following about the final appearance of the B6313:
The final appearance of B6313 found it with all the paint removed from the nose panels and the b/w bands expanded to seven and six respectively, Note the heart on the fin is now facing in the opposite direction. Additional cooling slots were cut into the front of the cowl and the upper wing center-section had the fabric removed to improve upwards visibility.
Would any of you happen to have any closer info on the highlighted point?
Many thanks!
Cheers
Ondra
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I think Bob Pearson got his reference's from Norman Franks Book mentioned at the bottom of his pages, I have seen a late picture of this aircraft with the finish stripped off the cowl but its upside down having tipped on landing. Its at the bottom of this link.
https://www.thisdayinaviation.com/27-october-1918/
Of course you could email Bob Pearson
As to the centre section. This was a mod done by the ground crew for the pilot. Stripping out more fabric in the centre section for greater upwards visibility. Many pilots did this. The space between the centre and the first ribs left and right was usual, but some striped out more.
hth's Ray
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Actually, that photo of B6313 upside-down is from March 1918, when Barker was still with 28 Squadron, so it would be in one of the earlier schemes with the white square as the Squadron ID. He then went (with B6313) to 66 Squadron. I don't believe anyone has any photos of the Camel during this time. Finally, he was assigned as CO of 139 Squadron in July 1918, initially with the 7 bands & heart as shown in WNW's kit instructions. The last scheme, being discussed, had the increased fuselage stripes and hearts reversed, with the bare cowling. There's only one image of the final scheme I'm aware of - in Wayne Ralph's illustrated edition of his life, I don't think there's even a photo of it in this scheme. I'm sure I have a book with that photo in it, but I'm not sure where.
Rich
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Okay, so I'm replying to my own post! Found the picture of B6313 in its final scheme. It's on Page 79 of Osprey's Sopwith Camel Aces of WWI. The view is a left rear 3/4 view, and the wing center section is definitely opened up from the standard. In fact, there's a photo just below it from Barker's time at 28 Squadron, and the difference is obvious. The opened-up center section is an optional part in the WNW kit (marked "not used" in my Clerget version, but used on some other releases). I believe it's also an option in the Eduard kits, although those are inaccessible to me at the moment. Those are the only 2 Camel kits I'm familiar with.
Rich
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Many thanks for your inputs, Petie and Ray, your help is highly appreciated!
It is a great hint with the Osprey book, I have this one and found the photo, the upper wing is very well visible.
So I adapted my drawing accordingly, hopefully it is correct. I assume there must be rigging between the ribs, right? Marked black on the drawing.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4516/38283624994_c6cc11600d_b.jpg)
So far no idea how to creat the centre section in 1/144 scale with the rigging, but a lot of time to think about it. :)
Cheers
Ondra
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Ondra,
You may want to look at WNW's instructions for the BR.1 Camel kit (No. 32070) available to download from their site. There is only the single center rib showing, and the rigging wires go from near the ends of that rib in a "V" on either side, to meet at the center of the right and left edges of the opening. If I'm not being clear, the illustration on Page 9 of the instructions (10 in the PDF, counting the cover) should make it easier to see. That should be somewhat easier to make in 1/144 than what you've drawn.
If you do have the Osprey Camel Aces book, the wide opening is shown in the top view of MacLaren's Camel, Profile 13.
Hope this helps,
Rich
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Thank you again, Rich, the hint with the WNW instructions as well as Mac Laren's kite profile was very helpful!
So, here the corrected drawing, now it should be closer to the real thing.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4566/38963993772_f509afbf08_b.jpg)
Once again many thanks for your advices.
Cheers
Ondra
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Ondra,
I should have looked here for an example - In "Under Construction", Lance has his excellent build of MacLaren's Camel from the WNW kit. The wing is just as described in the instructions. Can't get a better illustration than that!
Only excuse I have is that it was late for me, and I got caught up looking through my library for examples - but we shouldn't forget to check out the great builds on this site!
Rich
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Ondra,
I should have looked here for an example - In "Under Construction", Lance has his excellent build of MacLaren's Camel from the WNW kit. The wing is just as described in the instructions. Can't get a better illustration than that!
Only excuse I have is that it was late for me, and I got caught up looking through my library for examples - but we shouldn't forget to check out the great builds on this site!
Rich
There are 3 really good views on Lance’s build, of the gap in the centre ribs and one is plan-view looking down on the wing. So as Rich said you can’t get better than that.
Ray