forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com
The WW1 modelers' reference library => Markings and Camouflage => Topic started by: Syd Solo on January 31, 2017, 12:22:17 PM
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Looking at Jim Miller's remarkably well researched profiles of Voss' Albatros D.lll in Lance Bronnenkant's excellent book The Blue Max Airmen, Vol 6, and noting that the Aircraft Colors and Markings consultant for this book is the highly respected Greg Van Wyngarden, I noticed that the port side wheel cover is grey-green (as are the engine covers and all the struts, undercarriage legs etc.) and the starboard side wheel cover is light grey. Pages 87 and 92 refer. I could not find any text relating to this.
Of course, it was common enough Jasta practice to replace parts, such as wheels, but I have seen no photos that show this odd little anomaly. Also, I see that the usually most fastidious Mr Miller did not draw in the rectangular valve patches (is that what they are called?) on the wheel covers that seem prominent in many of the photos of this aircraft, for example in the photos on page 72, 66 and 65.
Can anybody explain these differently coloured wheel covers and the evidence (photographs) for them?
Cheers
Syd
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discussed a bit here:
http://forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com/index.php?topic=1836.0
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Bo, thanks for that link. What a genius build that was! Inspirational.
Still didn't answer my query, though, unless I missed something. Paolo seems to have painted both wheel covers grey- green. Dave Douglass's fantastic profile shows them as red. An early Jim Miller profile shows black. Jim has obviously changed his thinking since, as evidenced by his work in the Bronnenkant book.
Cheers
Syd
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Bo, thanks for that link. What a genius build that was! Inspirational.
Still didn't answer my query, though, unless I missed something. Paolo seems to have painted both wheel covers grey- green. Dave Douglass's fantastic profile shows them as red. An early Jim Miller profile shows black. Jim has obviously changed his thinking since, as evidenced by his work in the Bronnenkant book.
Cheers
Syd
Yes, well the wheel cover color is a matter of speculation -- nobody knows for sure. Dave thinks it is red, and gives his reasons, I think in the discussion. But as an ex-Jasta B machine there is also reason to think they may have been black. And of course, they may have been repainted or swapped at some point! After all, the upper wing was changed, presumably sometime after Voss joined J5 and the third heart added, etc so it was a "work in progress"....
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Syd, if you have the Osprey Jim Miller D.III book there is a several page discussion with lots of photos on the markings of this aircraft. I don't have it with me at the moment, so I can't consult it, but it, along with the Bronnekant book represent the current state of thinking on how this aircraft was likely marked...
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Syd, if you have the Osprey Jim Miller D.III book there is a several page discussion with lots of photos on the markings of this aircraft. I don't have it with me at the moment, so I can't consult it, but it, along with the Bronnekant book represent the current state of thinking on how this aircraft was likely marked...
Hopefully the Bronnekant book has some discussion on it. I just looked at the James Miller Osprey one and the discussion and photos etc. are centered on details of the fuselage motif and construction details such as the round vs. square footstep and centered/offset radiator question. All coloured illustrations including the book cover show dark (black to my eyes) wheel covers. Sadly we know so little regarding this great ace and his aircraft; I'm still, despite solid logic, delaying my Fokker F.1 Build of his aircraft while I juggle jars of yellow vs. green paint and the cowling!
Great discussion!
Cheers,
Lance
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Hopefully the Bronnekant book has some discussion on it. I just looked at the James Miller Osprey one and the discussion and photos etc. are centered on details of the fuselage motif and construction details such as the round vs. square footstep and centered/offset radiator question.
There are photos where the covers appear rather light; it could be a trick of the light, different film etc. Note too that the wheel covers would be one of the easiest parts to change on the aircraft -- I think it is quite conceivable they were different colors at different times.
As far as the yellow cowling on the Dr.1 -- I personally think that idea is utter nonsense. Ray Rimmel has stated that Alex Imrie posited the idea just to cause mischief.
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Hey guys. Good subject but one in which you can never be 100% sure. Since this plane was painted in several stages and at two different Jastas it is hard to even say it wasn't one color and then the other. I did have reasons for picking red, and mostly speculation although some of the photos is just "feels" lighter than black. It could be either. My 2 cents, decide what version of the aircraft you want to do, Jasta 5 or Jasta 2, and then look at the photos that are known to have been taken at that time. Use Jim's most excellent research on that point. Then pick the color you think looks best or fits your interpretation :) That's the best I can do. I think as long as you know why you picked black or red...or even factory. You could even speculate that they were replaced at some point after the final painting. How is that for definitive? :D
Do make note in the wear and scratches on the wheel discs in the photos of the final pain tjob :D
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Also make note of that sub-standard radiator header tank set-up
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And...after re-reading this thread, to answer, those wheel discs on this plane are fabric, and almost universally clear doped fabric or light blue from the factory. I can't think of any fabric covered wheel discs painted in the same color as metal parts. That's my reasoning there too, Those discs on the voss plane show chipping paint, so they are at least painted and not CDL and I strongly believe they are painted a darker color than light blue or the gray-green painted metal. That's one more piece of the puzzle.
You can see the fabric flap for the air valve stem clearly as well as the peeling paint-
http://simhq.com/forum/files/usergals/2011/06/full-2942-13990-voss20alb.jpg
http://simhq.com/forum/files/usergals/2011/06/full-2942-13966-vossd3e_original.jpg
Edit, notice the strong resemblance between the red heart and wheel disc in the first photo. Also notice that at the very least, the discs seem darker than the gear legs :)
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"As far as the yellow cowling on the Dr.1 -- I personally think that idea is utter nonsense. Ray Rimmel has stated that Alex Imrie posited the idea just to cause mischief."
Yup, the "logical me" agrees Bo, however old versions/visions are not easy to change! My Russell Smith print of "Last Dance of the Hussar" with the dull yellow cowling will always be my mind sight picture of Voss............ I love that painting and it's "movement", in my judgement Russell's best work, guess I could always keep the model in a different room! ;)
As for the wheel covers, they could be changed in mere seconds, and I'd venture to say were not uncommonly lost items due to manoeuvering, hard ground contact, etc.
Cheers,
Lance
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Dave, my reply "crossed" yours on posting, thanks for your interpretation and logic on the wheel covers. I like it, and the great photos as well.
Cheers,
Lance
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My pleasure Lance. My thinking these days is to learn as much as you can, read all the accounts, reports and research, add up all the new questions that come up after you've learned everything you can and come up with your own opinion. WW1 aircraft coloring is such a complicated and subtle thing that I'm fairly convinced that it has no absolutes, only well informed and most likely guesses.
I'm with you on the yellow thing too. Mostly for the reason of why paint elaborate markings with so little contrast? White on yellow, no matter how dark and rich, isn't the kind of thing that would occur to most people. Hmmm, white mustache or black mustache, which one of these? That and the fact that Voss' plane is a one-off in the unit and appears the same as the factory planes. Sure, it could be yellow, and it might have ad white marking, but it seems more unlikely to me. Whereas, factory olive paint with white markings seems infinitely more likely.
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I'm with you on the yellow thing too. Mostly for the reason of why paint elaborate markings with so little contrast? White on yellow, no matter how dark and rich, isn't the kind of thing that would occur to most people. Hmmm, white mustache or black mustache, which one of these? That and the fact that Voss' plane is a one-off in the unit and appears the same as the factory planes. Sure, it could be yellow, and it might have ad white marking, but it seems more unlikely to me. Whereas, factory olive paint with white markings seems infinitely more likely.
Exactly. Occam's razor. But also: in every photo I've seen there is no discernable difference between the tone of the cowling and the other parts that people assume were Fokker green. Yes, chrome yellow can photograph dark on ortho, but exactly the same tone as the darkish Fokker green? Unlikely. Plus no mention of the yellow in the accounts of the famous combat.
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(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x26/tonys09/Voss_D_III.jpg) (http://s182.photobucket.com/user/tonys09/media/Voss_D_III.jpg.html)
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yes, and then there is this, covers look very dark:
(http://simhq.com/forum/files/usergals/2011/06/full-2942-13990-voss20alb.jpg)
and this... covers look "medium dark"
(http://simhq.com/forum/files/usergals/2011/06/full-2942-13966-vossd3e_original.jpg)
and this... covers look dark to me
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v519/JFM/Aerodrome/VossPainting.jpg)
not much to be learned from this...
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7231/7001322873_74ab791182_b.jpg)
spinner shows here...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v519/JFM/Aerodrome/Voss700series.jpg)
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Brez, notice the photo you posted shows the same scratch and lighter colored fabric flap on the wheel disc as one of the photos Bo posted. I believe those are painted the same/taken of the same incarnation of the plane. I guess the thing to think about is that the flap is either raw fabric, factory light blue or at the very least painted factory green-gray. Whatever it is, the disc is painted in a color that photographs darker than either of those and shows plenty of contrast. That's good to keep in mind.
Bo, exactly :D
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Ok, so meanwhile, THIS is what Syd is talking about -- the light grey wheel cover depicted in 3C:
(http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh640/UncleTony1917/FC0C8DB5-71E2-4950-886E-270723112BD1_zpsdprcmm9u.jpg)
Somebody needs to ask Jim why he rendered it like this. I almost think it is a printing mistake...
(I will ask Jim and see what he says...)
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Not just the wheel covers but the "N" struts on the fuselage are definitely darker...
Ed
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Thanks, Bo, Dave, Lance, Brez and anyone else responding to this.
Your points are well made and well taken. I agree that I need to discern precisely (as may be possible) when in the history of this aircraft it is being shown in the respective photographs.
It was Dave's wonderful profile (and thanks for posting it again Dave) that got me considering this subject. I like the red.
When I saw Jim's profile's in Bronnenkant's book I also thought at first it was a printing error. But it appears twice; on p.92 when Voss was at J5, as you have shown, Bo, and prior to that on p.87 when Voss was at Jasta B. I feel sure that such an error, if it is one, would have been picked up at the proofing stage of publication. If someone who knows Jim can query him on this I would be appreciative.
And, as pointed out that radiator header tank on the J5 version is a little different than the usual. I'll have to dig up a clearer photo of such an arrangement. Looks like I might be in for some scratch building on the Eduard 1/48 kit I am currently doing.
Now you've got me started! I'm also frustrated that the available decals for this 'plane generally show the bow on the wreath as a very light blue, although on all the profiles and photos it appears darker than that (notwithstanding the vagaries of photos of the era). Also, decal designers don't show the port side and starboard side bows as being slightly different, either (see Bronnenkant p90-91).
I do have the old Glencoe kit's Scalemaster decals which has the bow as darker blue, but the turtledeck heart is the same size as the fuselage heart when cleary it was larger and also had a wider white outline.
Don't get me going on Venetian red!
Cheers
Syd
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Jim & I are Facebook friends (more like acquaintances-- but we've corresponded on other albatros arcana in the past); I sent him an inquiry. I'll let you know what he says...
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. Also, decal designers don't show the port side and starboard side bows as being slightly different, either (see Bronnenkant p90-91).
Lifelike do Syd with different number of leaves on each side, but only in 1/48th I think.
https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/LL48040
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Thanks, Brez! How did I miss that one? I'll get a set ASAP.
Cheers
Syd
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Jim got back to me re the wheel covers -- not a definitive answer, but judge for yourself whether this seems like something deliberate -- I'll keep you posted:
Hi, Bo. That was from a couple years ago and I cannot remember if that was a slip-up with the wrong profile used or they wanted it that way. I'll ask Lance.
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Also make note of that sub-standard radiator header tank set-up
Dave
On that subject, I have been unable to find any photographs of that style of header tank on any other radiator, only the Voss D.III while it was at J5. Do you know of any other photos of this type of header tank arrangement?
I'm guessing it is substantially similar to the conventional header tank seen on the Teves and Braun radiator but with a rearward mounted curved tube instead of the front mounted, muzzle shaped air inlet "horn" (sorry, don't know what its proper name is).
Thanks for any advice or clarification you (or anyone else) can give on this.
CheerS
Syd
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Have a look at T&B radiator installlation on Halb CL.II
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(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x26/tonys09/DSC01337_zpspjsq0pbf.jpg) (http://s182.photobucket.com/user/tonys09/media/DSC01337_zpspjsq0pbf.jpg.html)
An earlier style T & B radiator header mounted on an Alb. DII.
Take a look at James Miller's excellent book on the DIII https://ospreypublishing.com/albatros-d-iii-35571
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Thanks Bo and Brez. That photo of the D.II radiator is sufficient for my purposes.
I do have the Jim Miller Osprey D.III book and it's a very illuminating read. However, I couldn't find a pic of that particular header tank. Now all my questions about Voss' D.III are answered.
Regarding the wheel cover colours, I have decided to go with the grey-green on both wheels and a black spinner. I'd still be interested in Jim's final answer to why he represented the wheels as grey on starboard side and grey-green on the port.
Cheers
Syd
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I have decided to go with the grey-green on both wheels and a black spinner.
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x26/tonys09/DSC01338_zps6gbnkjml.jpg) (http://s182.photobucket.com/user/tonys09/media/DSC01338_zps6gbnkjml.jpg.html)
Me too :)
Cheers,
Tony.
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Brez,
Love your work! Is that the Roden 1/32? I'm doing the Eduard 1/48.
If mine turns out half as good as yours I'll be we'll satisfied. 😀
Cheers
Syd
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Brez,
Love your work! Is that the Roden 1/32? I'm doing the Eduard 1/48.
If mine turns out half as good as yours I'll be we'll satisfied. 😀
Cheers
Syd
Thanks Syd, it's an Eduard DIII/Oeffag "mash-up"
http://forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com/index.php?topic=6200.msg112682#msg112682
Cheers,
Tony.
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Tony, wow! Even better work than I had imagined!
I have been wrestling with the Jasta B front cowl ring louvres. The Eduard PE ones don't cut it IMO.
The sequence of wing colours on my model will be different to yours, as per Jim Miller's plan view in the Bronnenkant book. I think you have captured the "light straw" tone of the fuselage ply perfectly.
Cheers
Syd
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I'd still be interested in Jim's final answer to why he represented the wheels as grey on starboard side and grey-green on the port.
Jim's final answer -- "a slip of continuity"
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Or, as a friend of mine sometimes says "spot the deliberate mistake". In the process of investigating the wheel cover question I learnt a lot more about the Voss Alb D.III, so it was well worth asking this knowledgable and most helpful forum.
Thanks and cheers
Syd
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As I recently got the very nice Pheon decals for my Fokker F.I and also happen to have a Roden Albatros D.III that may end up as Voss' machine, I have a question... though this discussion seemed to start (and end!) about the colour of the wheel covers, a lot of stuff was covered in between so I hope I'm not too much off topic -if that's the case I'll open a new thread, but it seemed to me it would be better to keep it all in one place for future searches?
With that said, from what I have read and seen, Voss' Albatros kind of grew towards it's final incarnation. I have seen a photo of it with just the 2 hearts and the swastika (without the laurels), but is there also a photo, text or something else that shows/tells/whatever it with just the hearts, so without the swastika? Or was the swastika first and were the hearts added later?
Best regards,
Jeroen