forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com
WW1 Aircraft Modeling => Under Construction => Scratch builds => Topic started by: Brad Cancian on September 10, 2016, 02:21:52 PM
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Hi all,
For many moons now, Roden has promised us a BE12a version of their BE series of British early war bombers.
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20BE-12a/URO409M_zpsf1ododpj.jpg)
This aircraft was a variant of the BE12, which was itself a variant of the BE2. The BE12a had BE2e wings, and was used as a single seat fighter. It was not effective in this role, but it did see some successes in the middle east, where it was flown by 1 Squadron Australian Flying Corps (hence my interest in the aircraft).
Alas, this kit has never materialised. Back around 7 or 8 years ago I went about converting the rough Aeroclub BE12 to a BE12b, and Roden promptly released a kit of the BE12b, so I figured the only way to get them to release one would be to scratch build one myself! :) I thought about converting their BE12b or BE2c but there are enough differences (and errors) in the Roden kits to make this harder than one would initially think. I have the ancient Aeroclub BE12a and it is very rough and chunky, lacking the refined detail that I prefer. Plus it's made of very hard plastic which has a tendency to chip and flake. Hence I thought I would try my first ever full scratch build. Wish me luck!
My first thought (and dread) was scratch building wings. I figured that if I couldn’t get a set of wings then the whole project would be pointless. I considered using the strip styrene over a styrene core approach, but this has never looked convincing to me, and is allot of sanding and smoothing to get the wing to look half decent. I had heard of the Harry Woodman approach to skinning wings over a balsa core, described here:
http://web.archive.org/web/20080327095940/http://www.wwimodeler.com/harry/chapter3/09-wings.htm
…so thought I would give that a try. I went out and bought some balsa wood and sheet plastic, plus something suitable to roll the balsa core on to get the required camber (it might also come in handy later…).
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20BE-12a/BE12a01_zpscs3uexkq.jpg)
So following the method, and using the data file plans for reference, I made the cores:
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20BE-12a/BE12a02_zpsltisgp6j.jpg)
I decided to make the wings in single pieces then cut each piece out later, in order to ensure I had straight leading edges and constant chord across all of the wing panels. I then embossed the skin, using the recommended 0.10’’ plastic card. I found this way too thick, and very difficult to bend. It also didn’t have a very thin trailing edge. So I tried again with 0.05” card. This was much better, and produced a surface reminiscent of the Eduard Albatros D.II, though not quite as pronounced (this may be too much for some, but I found this more pleasing for me than the less pronounced ribs that the 0.10”card produced). This was then bent and secured over the balsa core as per Harry’s method by heating and flattening the leading edge, and using double sided tape and Tamiya thin cement.
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20BE-12a/BE12a03_zpsg4h7zoxi.jpg)
The trailing edges and wing tips were then refined, until I had this:
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20BE-12a/BE12a04_zpsthcn6v71.jpg)
The panels were then appropriately separated, as were the ailerons. These were then re-secured using wire for hinges. They are still a bit fragile.
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20BE-12a/BE12a05_zpsq5elxc5k.jpg)
All in all it took me about 4 hours to get to this point, through a bit of trial and error. These wings are VERY FAR from perfect but it was a good experiment and I learned allot. They seem to be reasonably robust – the grain in the balsa helps prevent too much span-wise flex, which will come in handy when it comes to struts and rigging (which seems like a VERY, VERY long way away…!)
Learning points –
1. Don’t try this without a good double sided tape. Just…. don’t.
2. Getting constant camber and a dead straight wing for a long wing panel is very difficult – I didn’t get it right, as there’s a bit of anhedral and some twist in that long upper wing, but it’s good enough for a first try and some I can straighten up now that I have the panels separated.
3. The thickness and camber seems to differ from the bottom wings to the top wings, simply because I approached the sticking of the upper wing skin on the double sided tape in a slightly different way for each set. I'ts a little noticeable but i'm not going to throw a whole set of wings away.
4. The wing tips are a pain, and require quite a bit of clean up, incluiding filling and sanding due to the thinness of the 0.05" card.
5. 0.05’” card is really thin! It is susceptible to dents and dings, or use of too much glue (which results in what looks like ripples). Seams also pop if I twist the wings too much. There is also very little margin for sanding before you sand through the card, requiring more filler and sanding.
In any case, these are not so bad that I’ll scrap them and good enough to carry on with, given it's my first go. Next I’ll build the tail feathers then onto thinking about the fuselage.
As this is my first full scratch build, I welcome any tips from here!
Cheers
BC
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Great start!
Tips:soak the balsa core with tube glue thinned with liquid cement until it becomes sitff and rigid like glass.
You can use a flat Brush, sanding when one layer is dry and repeating until the core is smooth and rigid.
This pass also helps double side tape adhesion. I prefer two-components glue, though since double side tape tends to get loose with time.
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Outstanding start Brad! The wings look excellent to my eyes.
RAGIII
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Those wings look great from here! For a first attempt I'd certainly give 10/10. Do I take it that you used the double sided tape to actually hold the plastic skin to the balsa core?
Ian
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A great start, Brad! In fact, a superb start on what promises to be a brilliant build - Good luck!!
vB
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Great start which I will be following with interest. I have never used balsa cores for wings - I just think that they are too much trouble but you seem to have produced some excellent examples on your first try!. I am also wary of double sided tape for the reasons Ermio has given - I would have used epoxy or something similar.
Stephen.
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I'm looking forward to following along with this build Brad, your wing building technique is quite a good idea and one I could use during my 1:32 scale scratch builds.
Des.
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Thanks for the feedback and tips folks - this is very much still a learning experience for me!
Yes the tape is used to keep the wings skins down. I didn't have any epoxy to hand, and superglue wasn't going to permit me the time to work the skin into position. What seems to 'seal' everything together is the plastic glue around the edges of the plastic skin. So in theory, if the skins are down tight then there shouldn't be too much of a concern about the tape degrading over time. I don't know how well the skins and balsa core will hold up over time, and if they will bend and twist or not, but time will tell. I'm still debating about whether to have the rigging as structural rigging or use my usual elastic. Proper structural rigging will give me the strength required but I fear that over time the tension may warp the wing. Anyone have any experience with this?
In any case, I spent some time building the tail feathers today. These were thinner and I used plastic card as the core. In this case, because they had a plastic core, I could extend the core slightly wider than the tips, which provided a surface to glue the plastic skin to. This made cleaning up the wing tips far easier.
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20BE-12a/BE12a06_zpsfe4jikli.jpg)
I think next time I scratch build wings i'll use a balsa core but build up the core with plastic wingtips to help with the cleanup.
So, I now have a full set of flight feathers, which means the next step will be to start thinking about how to build the fuselage...
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20BE-12a/BE12a07_zpslg7ebme0.jpg)
Cheers again!
BC
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Magical workmanship, Brad ;)
vB
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Hey Brad, good to see some good old-fashioned modelling again. Nice results. Keep up the great work.
Re longevity of balsa core wings etc, I built a 1/48 FE2b like this back in the early 70s and did an article on it in Scale Models magazine back in 1974 if I remember correctly. I eventually sold it on ebay round about 2000 and the wings were still perfectly sealed and in good order at that time. So 25 years was quite easily achievable with the glues etc at the time.
Surprised you don't rate the Aeroclub BE series, I thought they were pretty good at the time although I haven't seen them for a while. I would always trust John Adams' plans over other sources as I know the care he takes in drawing them up - often from original sources. I remember visiting him when he had premises in Nottingham and he showed me some original Meteor drawings. He'd visited the Gloster factory as it was about to be demolished and found workmen carrying armfuls of original drawings out to a skip. He asked if he could have some and was told to help himself so packed his car with as much as possible! (But had to see the rest go off to a tip somewhere, what a waste.)
Don't know if it's true but one of the traders at the Scottish Scale World show last week in Edinburgh told me John had supplied the plans to Airfix for some of their big 1/24 kits. (I'd trust John's dimensions above any Datafile or other plansets.)
Anyway, nice model, look forward to seeing it complete.
Sandy
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Great start, Brad! :D
Cheers,
Ernie :)
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Wonderful scratchbuilt wings. And flawless for a first try! I have to try out that Method too... If I should give an answer to your question I think I'd go with elastic rigging in this scale, fearing structural rigging could bend the wings. That's not based on experience, just a feeling in my stomach. I cross my fingers for your plastic cores. When I scratch built my Nieuport 12 I had used two layers of 0,5 mm plastic card glued together. They are badly warped meanwhile ???
Borsos
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Brad,
Outstanding project my old friend. Your Master Level skills and craftsmanship serve you well. Hard to believe this is your first scratch build judging from her wings. Great technique and well planned execution. I'm looking forward to following this latest project of your's. Keep up your high standards of excellence.
Highest Regards,
Gregory Jouette
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great start brad, i remember your conversion from way back, want to say you kitbashed a roden se5a nose onto the aeroclub fuselage correct? that was a beautiful build.must be 10 years back and your skills have become far more refined,should turn out to be a mini work of art.
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Great start. It looks so easy to make the wings, but I think it is very tricky.
I will follow your build. I think I can learn here a lot.
Manni
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Spectacular results, Brad.
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Beautiful work on those flight surfaces. The rib detail is very difficult to get just right, and not looking too Airfix-like!
Ian
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Brad,
Really inspiring work on the tail surfaces and I must mention the wings again! Someday I would certainly like to try a scratchbuild in 1/32nd. You are right up there now in inspirational posts with Des, Stephen, and a few others!
RAGIII
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Brad,
Really inspiring work on the tail surfaces and I must mention the wings again! Someday I would certainly like to try a scratchbuild in 1/32nd. You are right up there now in inspirational posts with Des, Stephen, and a few others!
RAGIII
I couldn't agree more, Brad! I've always had my doubts about the balsa core approach, but this thread has convinced me that this is the way to go (when I finally get around to scratch building something).
Cheers,
Bud
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Brad,
Really inspiring work on the tail surfaces and I must mention the wings again! Someday I would certainly like to try a scratchbuild in 1/32nd. You are right up there now in inspirational posts with Des, Stephen, and a few others!
RAGIII
I couldn't agree more, Brad! I've always had my doubts about the balsa core approach, but this thread has convinced me that this is the way to go (when I finally get around to scratch building something).
Cheers,
Bud
And the 3rd Amigo joins the chorus !!
Ed
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Wonderful, flawless work. Seeing your skill at work again makes me very envious.
Stefan
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Thanks everyone! :) :)
I spent a couple of quiet hours this afternoon fabricating the basic form of the fuselage. I went with the classic flat sided box, made from 0.10" sheet plastic and a combination of 0.20" and 0.30" square strip and rod.
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20BE-12a/BE12a08_zps2ius71mm.jpg)
Here it is taped together to get an idea of the basic form:
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20BE-12a/BE12a09_zpsdyqrcykl.jpg)
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20BE-12a/BE12a10_zpsrnx6q9hz.jpg)
I'll use this as the basis for the other components, including the upper decking, fuel tanks etc once I get to them. But this is at least the starting point to build the rest upon.
Cheers!
BC
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Harry Woodman would be proud :)
Keep going!!
vB
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Harry Woodman would be proud :)
Keep going!!
vB
Indeed he would! Great work Brad!!
RAGIII
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I'll 3rd that, it really is looking superb!
Ian
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Wonderful work. For a first scratch build this is a real winner.
Stephen.
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Brad,
Absolutely beautiful work my old friend. I'm loving every moments of this thread!
Highest Regards,
Gregory Jouette
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Simply geat, nothing else to say! You have THE skill.
Manni
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Great clean modelling work, Brad.
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Careful Brad , it's addictive ... ;)
Terri
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Thanks as always everyone!
Some more work over the last week on the upper decking. The front section was made by bending and heating sheet plastic over a balsa form. It's not perfect but it will do. The rear decking was also done with 0.05" card, scored to represent the stringers on the upper decking, then bent and glued around the curved bulkhead behind the cockpit. I still need to re-work a number of areas around the cockpit but you get the idea. I also recently got hold of the CSM RAF4a engine (thanks Edgar!) which is very very nice. I've positioned the crank case for effect.
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20BE-12a/BE12a11_zpsviurqido.jpg)
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20BE-12a/BE12a12_zpshbbgclbt.jpg)
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20BE-12a/BE12a13_zps0upchsne.jpg)
These parts took a few hours to make (the upper decking took a couple of goes to work out how to get it together) and they turned out ok, but certainly far from great. Good enough to move ahead with though. These will take some clean up to smooth out the transitions and seams once the fuselage is all glued together. I don't see this as being too major an issue, especially as I can hide some of the seams with the fuselage stitching.
Cheers
BC
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You're moving along beautifully Brad, what you have achieved so far is excellent.
Des.
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Very nice brad
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I would be jumping up and down on hot coals if I could model as well as this.
Keep going, Brad!
vB
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This is showing all the signs of being a masterpiece in the making. She's looking really nice so far and that engine will really set it off!
Ian
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it's looking excellent at this stage Brad. The basic structure and particularly the upper decking and the cowl are spot on, like von Buckle I envy your modelling skills so well represented here! It will be an enjoyable experience following your progress.......
Cheers,
Lance
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it's looking excellent at this stage Brad. The basic structure and particularly the upper decking and the cowl are spot on, like von Buckle I envy your modelling skills so well represented here! It will be an enjoyable experience following your progress.......
Cheers,
Lance
100 percent agreement from me!
RAGIII
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Outstanding modeling, looking forward to updates.
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Excellent work ! With refreshing approach of sorting the wings first, in my experience, fuselage goes ok, but wings go wonky, twisty. My own fault for working in 1/72 :o
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I believe the old adage was if it looks right it will fly right. Let's hope this one never takes flight but it's certainly looking right on.
Regards, Steve
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i dont know why guys(like brad and des etc.) who can scratch build in this quality dont just cast the parts as they build and sell their hard work as a limited release kit to guys like us who dont have the time ,patience and/or talent to do so. they could make a chunk of change i imagine with little of no overhead. the cost of the casting materials would be covered by the 1st sale then all profit. i am not talking about a professional package with a printed box etc. i am talking about bagged parts using the online build log as instructions and printing ones own decals at home. i know i would buy. if i had the time or inclination i surely would.
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Truly awesome work, Brad!
Cheers,
Bud
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Hello!
I am really impressed by your work, especially for the interlined parts.
I never achieve this quality .....
:o Wahouuu
Arnaud
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Hey Brad, here's some inspiration for you:
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ZacYates/TVAL%20shows/1215AB6B-A6C5-4B7A-A9A2-37FA77E2C3F4_zps4mjkv8ek.jpg) (http://s15.photobucket.com/user/ZacYates/media/TVAL%20shows/1215AB6B-A6C5-4B7A-A9A2-37FA77E2C3F4_zps4mjkv8ek.jpg.html)
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ZacYates/TVAL%20shows/80B7C164-E6BA-4A16-B85E-A06D3DF79A0B_zpsclqbf9d2.jpg) (http://s15.photobucket.com/user/ZacYates/media/TVAL%20shows/80B7C164-E6BA-4A16-B85E-A06D3DF79A0B_zpsclqbf9d2.jpg.html)
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ZacYates/TVAL%20shows/CA01FCC5-21E6-409A-958B-6CADC77492C0_zpshki3ygq9.jpg) (http://s15.photobucket.com/user/ZacYates/media/TVAL%20shows/CA01FCC5-21E6-409A-958B-6CADC77492C0_zpshki3ygq9.jpg.html)
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ZacYates/TVAL%20shows/A2881383-A3D1-4DB6-B7C9-3B85592EA1F3_zpsmr5c798n.jpg) (http://s15.photobucket.com/user/ZacYates/media/TVAL%20shows/A2881383-A3D1-4DB6-B7C9-3B85592EA1F3_zpsmr5c798n.jpg.html)
I love this build. Looking forward to the next update!
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Thanks guys, and thanks KiwiZac for the photos - indeed inspirational!
This one has taken a bit of a hiatus at the moment - am in the process of moving house interstate, it'll probably be another month or two before the move is done and the bench is set up again....
Cheers
BC
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Amazing. I'm always impressed with any scratch build but this one is really excellent
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Hey Brad,
You're most welcome! Here's another inspirational thing for you that I recorded on Sunday: https://youtu.be/fTQg_8bqGiE It was magical to see and hear (it's very quiet) the BE12 reproduction flying. It may not be the same variant as your build, but I hope it helps to spur you on.
I hope to see more of your excellent project soon.
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Amazing. I'm always impressed with any scratch build but this one is really excellent
Big Ditto !!!
Ed
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Hi all - it's been two years since I last looked at this one - my how time flies (pardon the pun...!).
In reconsidering how I progress, I am tending to think that the balsa / plastic construction will be a bit flimsy, especially the wings. I fear that a sneeze or two would be enough to see the whole thing fold up... So I am thinking of casting the major components in resin.
I am fearful that such long, thin components will end up warping if I try and cast them myself. Does anyone have any tips? Or better, would someone who knows what they are doing be willing to cast up a few sets of the flying surfaces / fuselage for me, with appropriate compensation of course!
Thanks!
BC
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Brad,
Glad to see this build might continue. I enjoy learning the techniques of other modelers.
Kevin
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Hiya Brad,
Looks like a few years have passed since you last looked at this build. Any more progress mate?
Just before I got distracted with other things and put away the number 11 blade and styrene, I started a scratch BE2a which didn’t get very far... the thread is over on Aeroscale somewhere.
Would like to see this one eventuate.
Cheers,
Hugh
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Hi Hugh - thanks for the interest in this one!
The build has obviously stalled, however, the embers are still slightly warm... back in 2019 I had Ron Kootje cast a bunch of resin wings for me - see here: https://forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com/index.php?topic=10406.msg189859#msg189859 - I needed these as I wasn't confident that my balsa wings could stand up to the test of time.
Ron did some really excellent work -
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20BE-12a/BE12a16_zpsmcqujxso.jpg)
In the mean time I have also obtained Roden's BE2c kit for some detail parts (undercarriage, etc).
Back in 2019 I also obtained a small vac-forming machine so that I can form the engine cowls and other parts... I just haven't done any of it yet :)
So, not dead, but still on the backburner (like a bunch of other projects of mine, i.e. scratchbuilt Morane, etc). I'll get there one day!
Cheers!
BC
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Those resin wings look awesome! I thought you might use the Roden kit as a basis maybe... certainly the guns and fittings are not too bad straight from the box.
Cheers,
Hugh
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Great start!
Tips:soak the balsa core with tube glue thinned with liquid cement until it becomes sitff and rigid like glass.
You can use a flat Brush, sanding when one layer is dry and repeating until the core is smooth and rigid.
This pass also helps double side tape adhesion. I prefer two-components glue, though since double side tape tends to get loose with time.
I would soak the balsa with ultra thin super glue. A light spray with activator (and I mean light as too much will foam and smoke) this should give you a fairly strong core. To improve adhesion of other glues to dry super glue surfaces wipe over with wet acetone which will soften the super glue but only for a short time.
Cheers
Andrew
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The resin wings really look the part!
I'm fully enjoying this build!
Willem
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Thanks Willem! I will get back to this build at some point, I promise. Very slow going on the bench so far this year - my net production still remains at zero....
Cheers again,
Brad