forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com
The WW1 modelers' reference library => Markings and Camouflage => Topic started by: RAGIII on December 10, 2015, 04:30:17 AM
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OK, This is just for fun and may help me decide what kit to use and how to paint it. There are Multiple schools of thought on this one, NONE totally provable. So I am looking to see if there is a consensus ::)
RAGIII
PS: This is coming very late but I realized I didn't mention that You can choose 3 items from the list: Example:
Early Fokker Built with red stripes red fuselage and black nose. You can add the No black nose option and The stripes on both upper and lower wing option. I hope this is clear?
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Very interessted in this one, as I am planning to do this one myself!
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Years ago on the Aerodrome Stephen Lawson posted a photo that Udet had allegedly given to a British pilot he shot down (can't remember who). It showed another view of DDN with the front of the rudder painted over, which argued for early Fokker instead of OAW. It's a very bad print and I couldn't tell if the bottom of the upper wing was striped, but possibly. Also too different colt to tell if nose is black. I think the stripes were black, in keeping with Kirchstein's Dr. I that he inherited.
Drew
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OK, the photo was given to the American pilot Wannamaker. Here it is:
Drew
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After reading the lengthy discussions on Aerodrome, I went with:
-Red and white stripes on top and bottom of upper wing
-fuselage all in red
-early Fokker built
-no black nose
my build of DDN:
http://forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com/index.php?topic=2690.msg44531#msg44531
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After reading the lengthy discussions on Aerodrome, I went with:
-Red and white stripes on top and bottom of upper wing
-fuselage all in red
-early Fokker built
-no black nose
my build of DDN:
http://forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com/index.php?topic=2690.msg44531#msg44531
Some of us were actually involved in that "Lengthy Discussion" and as always no firm conclusions were drawn. The very small photo on Udets office wall was interesting in that it was obviously DDN. At the time the photo was taken there was no white evident on the turtle deck so I have Eliminated that option from my possible build. Of course it could have been added later ::) GvW says in his books that the wings show evidence of being OAW but that there are other possible Fokker traits. Like I said it all is un provable so lets have some fun!
RAGIII
PS: I had looked up your build a couple of weeks ago, Lovely Model!
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I have to admit that I am biased in that I personally prefer the look of the red stripes/all red fuselage and I figured no one can decisively prove it wrong :)
Thinking back to those threads, wasnt there also a combat report referenced from a french pilot that referred to Udets Fokker as red (and in the timeframe that Udet flew DDN) - no reference of any black markings that would have seemed likely if the front half was black and the wings black striped?
I recall the office-wall photo as well - I spent some time frame-by-framing the film footage online but you cannot see much. I wonder if a better quality copy of that film somewhere would show more or be clearer (Wunder des Fliegens I think was the source of that footage?)
Regarding the OAW wings, wasnt that in reference to one of Udet's later DVII?
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Build 4 or so with different versions! Udet's last D. VII had an OAW upper wing from another machine. There's so much retouching on some of these photos it's hard to draw conclusions. In the first photo of DDN here, the upper wing stripes may have been retouched.
Drew
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I have to admit that I am biased in that I personally prefer the look of the red stripes/all red fuselage and I figured no one can decisively prove it wrong :)
Thinking back to those threads, wasnt there also a combat report referenced from a french pilot that referred to Udets Fokker as red (and in the timeframe that Udet flew DDN) - no reference of any black markings that would have seemed likely if the front half was black and the wings black striped?
I recall the office-wall photo as well - I spent some time frame-by-framing the film footage online but you cannot see much. I wonder if a better quality copy of that film somewhere would show more or be clearer (Wunder des Fliegens I think was the source of that footage?)
Regarding the OAW wings, wasnt that in reference to one of Udet's later DVII?
Reading through The Osprey DVII Book by Norman franks and Greg van Wyngarden, The French pilot referenced in that book is talking about a time frame from Udets red BMW DVII. But there could have been others?
There were a few who have tried to get "High" resolution photos from that film. I don't think they were successful.
In the caption of the Du Doch Nicht photo in Gregs book he mentions "The Finish on the wings would seem to indicate this was an OAW DVII,yet there is also evidence it may have been Fokker-built. "
That being said I think there was another of his DVIIs that had an OAW top wing, or at least aileron ::)
Again we know that NO ONE can prove or disprove either school of thought. I am just interested in seeing how aligned or split the OPINIONS are ;D
RAGIII
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Udet flew at least 3 D.VIIs: DDN; an OAW all lozenge with black nose and black and white fuselage edge stripes; and the BMW all red late Fokker. It's that last one that has the OAW upper wing. Rick, I think the OAW serial is also visible on the wing in addition to the aileron - WNW has sharp photos in their instructions.
I think the DDN photos have been examined as closely as possible. The office photo from the film is tiny and just shows the cockpit area and a bit of the upper wing. The Wannamaker photo is interesting but very poor quality. There are several good quality photos of the lozenged OAW machine and the late Fokker BMW powered one. Glenn Merrill, I think, believed there was a 4th D.VII. One problem is that the "LO!" being hand painted looks a bit different on each side.
Drew
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In this case, I think lack of definitive proof benefits the 1/32 modeler: one can build one of Udet's from either of two WnW kits (or even the D.BII(Alb) if you have the nose bits from another kit)!
In my case, I'd like to do a 1/32 series of Udet's machines from his Eindecker on.
Rob
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In my case, I'd like to do a 1/32 series of Udet's machines from his Eindecker on.
Rob
I'm doing that in 1/48, Rob!
Drew
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I think the DDN photos have been examined as closely as possible. The office photo from the film is tiny and just shows the cockpit area and a bit of the upper wing. The Wannamaker photo is interesting but very poor quality. There are several good quality photos of the lozenged OAW machine and the late Fokker BMW powered one. Glenn Merrill, I think, believed there was a 4th D.VII. One problem is that the "LO!" being hand painted looks a bit different on each side.
Drew
I agree about the photos drew. Dr. Merrill did some "Speculation" about the OAW upper wing on Udets DVII F. He felt it was/ could have been used because it "Might Have" had some special marking that Udet wanted to keep such as a Large U or Lo on the upper surface. Pretty thin as there is no evidence to prove or disprove. My guess is that a replacement was required and an OAW wing was available.
Back to DDN I guess I should give my "Preferences" :
Manufacturer: Still debating between the Early Fokker built and Early OAW.
Red and white stripes on both surfaces of the wing ( Like Kirchsteins DR1). Red to be different.
Red Fuselage with black nose. Udet had just initiated the black nose squadron marking so I "FEEL" he would have proudly displayed the Unit Marking.
No white stripes or entire turtle deck . No proof of course and Just My Opinion :-\
RAGIII
In this case, I think lack of definitive proof benefits the 1/32 modeler: one can build one of Udet's from either of two WnW kits (or even the D.BII(Alb) if you have the nose bits from another kit)!
In my case, I'd like to do a 1/32 series of Udet's machines from his Eindecker on.
Rob
Rob, you are entirely correct! The lack of proof does give us a lot of leeway as to which kit/s to use. Although only a couple of handfuls of members have voted it is interesting in that the results so far are sort of surprising to me. Close but not exactly as I suspected they would be.
RAGIII
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Agree with you, Rick, on the black nose for the same reason. Yes, lots of speculation on Udet's machines.
here's my 1/48 Roden version, done when I was in the OAW camp, which explains the full white rudder and full-bordered fuselage crosses. I went with black wing stripes in part because at the time I hadn't seen another model with this option. I'm convinced the wing is retouched in the photo and so arguments about whether or not the wing crosses are bordered might not be relevant.
Whatever option you choose, it's a striking scheme.
Drew
(http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h367/tomkos/WW%20I%20Models/IMG_7536.jpg)
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Very Nicely done DVII Drew! A great example of one of the MANY possibilities of this scheme! As for the upper wing it was certainly "Touched Up". I remember seeing a version that showed the top of the leading edge was changed in shape. Probably one of the more complete shots from Udets book?
RAGIII
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Here`s my version done years ago with the 1/48 th DML kit (http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n591/Miamiangler1/Fokker%20DVII/willie009.jpg) (http://s1141.photobucket.com/user/Miamiangler1/media/Fokker%20DVII/willie009.jpg.html)
(http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n591/Miamiangler1/Fokker%20DVII/willie008.jpg) (http://s1141.photobucket.com/user/Miamiangler1/media/Fokker%20DVII/willie008.jpg.html)
IMO the stripes were red . look at the photo from Red Baron . wing and tail colors look the same , now look at Udet`s boots which are black ,I`m guessing :)
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Willi,
Thanks for sharing that gorgeous DML Udet bird! Also thanks for the Opinion on Udets Du Doch Nicht!
RAGIII
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Red Stripes, red fuselage.
Ed
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Thanks for the input Ed. I notice you were somewhat non committal on the Manufacturer 8)
Also thanks to all who have voted. The results continue to be interesting, at least to me ;D
RAGIII
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Thanks for the input Ed. I notice you were somewhat non committal on the Manufacturer 8)
Also thanks to all who have voted. The results continue to be interesting, at least to me ;D
RAGIII
As for the colors the black of the cross is in contrast to the stripes/fuselage so Red , as for mfg.-Not sure, even Dan San was not on that part, so it leaves it up to each to decide.
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Thanks for the input Ed. I notice you were somewhat non committal on the Manufacturer 8)
Also thanks to all who have voted. The results continue to be interesting, at least to me ;D
RAGIII
As for the colors the black of the cross is in contrast to the stripes/fuselage so Red , as for mfg.-Not sure, even Dan San was not on that part, so it leaves it up to each to decide.
I was just kidding around about the Manufacturer Amigo :D If you take a look at my CURRENT opinion I too was NON COMMITTAL! I agree that it is more or less up to the individual Modeler to decide. I find the results so far to be rather interesting. I will discuss this much more when the Poll closes in January.
RAGIII
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Twenty Five Members have now voted 8) This is actually more than I expected so I am quite pleased. Of course that makes me want even more :o So far the results are still exceedingly close...as expected, sort of.
RAGIII
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The Poll ends today. Still time to vote 8)
RAGIII
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Ok the poll has been closed now for a few days and it is time for a little discussion. I appreciate those who took time to take part in my Unofficial, poorly Phrased and entirely Non Provable Poll ::)
Of the two Major schools of thought on this bird the results were to me interesting. Early Fokker built proved to be the Winner with 14 votes: 31.17% Those who voted Fokker were decidedly in favor of red stripes on the wing, 13 votes for 28.9 % with only 1 vote for black stripes, 2.2%. To me this represents what I would call the "Old School version"
The OAW built option was a close Second with 13 votes for 29.04%. What I found interesting was that the OAW school was split with 8 votes for red stripes 17.87%, and 5 for black 11.17%. Thus it seems those going with the newer school of thought ( OAW),are a little more open to the newer idea than those following the "Old School"( Fok.) version. Still over half thought red and white were correct.
Now for the black nose. This is where I really screwed up in that I did not split this up between versions so although 5 people feel that there was no black nose I have no idea which version was their preference. Still this shows a majority feel that a black nose was present.
Stripes on both surfaces of the wings got 12 votes, 26.7%, but again I failed to differentiate between red and white and black and white
One modeler also voted for "Other Options" such as a balck fuselage. Although most taking the poll do not agree this is a viable option and I appreciate the person who cast the vote!
My final thought on how I will model this bird are:
Early OAW built:
1. Light wing rib tapes on the lower wing which were rarely seen on early Fokker DVIIs.( If at all)
2. Jasta 4 was primarily if not completely equipped with OAW birds at this time thus making this a more likely option.
Red and White Stripes on both surfaces of the wings:
1. No real proof either way but assuming Udet followed Kirschsteins example I favor this option.
2. Red because I feel Udet would want to avoid any possible confusion with Kirschsteins Jasta 6 bird being flown at the time.
Red fuselage with Black Nose:
1. I feel that Udet would have used the newly instated Jasta marking.
2. I like the traditional red fuselage ;D , and of course Udet began using red @ this time.
That about covers my thoughts on this one. I would still like to hear from others as to what choices you made and your reasons!
Thanks again,
RAGIII
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Sounds excellent sir!
Warren
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Sounds pretty good to me, so you going with blue rib tapes on the OAW lower wings?
Dave
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Sounds pretty good to me, so you going with blue rib tapes on the OAW lower wings?
Dave
That is the plan for right now Dave. This one will have to wait until such time as I acquire an OAW version of the DVII. It may be a while as I refuse to pay upwards of $165.00 for one :(
RAGIII