forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com
The WW1 modelers' reference library => Markings and Camouflage => Topic started by: Dal Gavan on July 12, 2012, 11:56:47 AM
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G'day.
The Hobbycraft SPAD I'm building has Barraca's aircraft as one of the options and it's the one I'd like to do. However, a bit of research on the net has shown a number of variations in the Italian national markings, on profiles, models and even a (replica?) full sized aircraft and I'm wondering which is correct.
For example, did the cockades have a red ring or green? (Red is shown for SPAD XIII's I've found, but green for for other aircraft- the kit shows red)
And for the rudder stripes was the green closest to the fuselage or red? Tthe kit has red, but a few articles say it should be green.
If the kit decals are wrong I'll try to mask the markings rather than trying to paint-match the decals. I'm a long way from putting the paint on, but these questions have been nagging at me.
Cheers.
Dal.
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Dal,
For early SPAD XIII types the red outer ring is correct and the red closest to the tail as well. Many early French supplied aircraft arrived in Italy in French markings colors and for some reason unknown to me the marking were altered using the Italian colors thus Red, White,Green roundels. The same general idea would have applied to Nieuports and Hanriots. In the case of the Nieuports once the aircraft production began in Italy by Macchi the resulting Nieuports carried the Italian Colors in the correct order Green,White,Red. Are you planning to reconfigure the kits late type wing tips to the early rounded type as Barraca's SPAD XIII was an early type.
Highest Regards,
Gregory Jouette
LINK:http://www.rollmodels.net/nworkbench/onlinebuild/spad13/spad13.php
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Dal,
For early SPAD XIII types the red outer ring is correct and the red closest to the tail as well. Many early French supplied aircraft arrived in Italy in French markings colors and for some reason unknown to me the marking were altered using the Italian colors thus Red, White,Green roundels. The same general idea would have applied to Nieuports and Hanriots. In the case of the Nieuports once the aircraft production began in Italy by Macchi the resulting Nieuports carried the Italian Colors in the correct order Green,White,Red. Are you planning to reconfigure the kits late type wing tips to the early rounded type as Barraca's SPAD XIII was an early type.
Highest Regards,
Gregory Jouette
LINK:http://www.rollmodels.net/nworkbench/onlinebuild/spad13/spad13.php
That's interesting -- in other words, they simply overpainted the blue in the markings with green, no?
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Exactly! We italians love to take shortcuts sometimes!, ;)
Ciao
Edo
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Ha ha yes I am aware, as I have owned many Italian cars over the years (and still do...)
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Im thinkin' Ferrari takes long cuts when they engineer something.....
Steve
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Im thinkin' Ferrari takes long cuts when they engineer something.....
Steve
Hehe, yes, depends on the part -- example: connecting rods yes, door handles, no... I could cite examples but lets not hijack this cool topic :-)
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G'day, Gents.
Gregory, thanks for the info. It makes sense, in a twisted way. Changing the centre of the roundel is easy, and changing the stripes so the red was closest to the fuselage means they'd be easily distinguished from French aircraft.
No, I didn't know about the wing tips. I'll dig out my "French Aircraft of the First World War" and look at what needs doing. I was looking at the Spad being another relatively easy learning build (still hoping for WNW to start on French aircraft) on the way to an Se.5a and Re 8. I just ordered the Datafile as well, (and one on the D.V/D.Va and Rumpler C.IV- I've got all the willpower of a mushroom, sometimes....).
Edo, why do things the hard way? Italians are just being energy efficient.
Uncle Tony and Steve, you're not hijacking the thread. There's a genuine connection to Ferraris, after all. Though I'vve always preferred Maserati's meself. One day I may even win enough to buy one (a mMaserati)- after I get every kit that WNW releases. :-)
Cheers.
Dal.
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Hi Dal,
I built this SPAD using FCMīs decals.
Important things I found out along the build:
- No roundels on top nor on the lower wings;
- horse on one side, dragon on the other;
- very hard to rig interplane struts :o
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_6PBtgGCfBSI/TTIJEDRv0cI/AAAAAAAAAdw/wqWl5uVaLEw/s640/P1060645.JPG)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_6PBtgGCfBSI/TTIJGaRbsiI/AAAAAAAAAeQ/gmjvZ3jy3J0/s640/P1060653.JPG)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_6PBtgGCfBSI/TTIL9d-pJ4I/AAAAAAAAAew/ur9Q41VvEaM/s640/P1060660.JPG)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_6PBtgGCfBSI/TTIJFP4sHRI/AAAAAAAAAeA/Lbc9OQLIDLw/s640/P1060648.JPG)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_6PBtgGCfBSI/TTIL88UmF7I/AAAAAAAAAeg/kHAjNKQCv_k/s640/P1060655.JPG)
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Lovely SPAD Marco, nicely weathered.
Andrew
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Marco,
While I'm not certain the jury is still out concerning the Gryphon on the port side. Done the less you've completed one outstanding SPAD XIII my friend. Beautifully built and weathered, and her rigging is just awesome. Bravo Well Done my friend.
Highest Regards,
Gregory Jouette
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Beautiful rigging job. I can see from your images just how difficult the job would be. Notice I said 'would' be, as after seeing this, I have no plans for a Spad in my near future!
Cheers,
Chris
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Thank you!
Eventhough I built this kit it only contributed to my spadphobia. Not doing one again for a long time ;D.
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Marco,
Perhaps a larger scale for your next SPAD project my friend. Still not a piece of cake to rig but the larger scale is somewhat easier due to the scale.
Highest Regards,
Gregory Jouette
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Lovely SPAD, Marco.
I'm curious about your comment regarding the gryphon, Gregory. Can you elaborate?
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Marco,
Perhaps a larger scale for your next SPAD project my friend. Still not a piece of cake to rig but the larger scale is somewhat easier due to the scale.
Highest Regards,
Gregory Jouette
Thatīs 1/32 already! ;D Itīs the late Hobbycraft Spad. I extended the wings and rounded them.
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...then build a 24th scale ;) A lovely model and your rigging is excellent!!!!!
Steve
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Marco,
Well duh,I thought she was the early SPAD XIII from Eduards. Those rounded wings fooled me my friend . One thing beyond any doubt she's still an outstanding SPAD.
Highest Regards,
Gregory Jouette
"Umm maybe it's time for new glasses or less medication"
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Tony,
While it's true the Gryphon was the squadron emblem and the black prancing horse was Barraca's person marking . In researching Italian fighters I've never seen a photo of Barraca's SPAD showing the starboard side of the aircraft or the Gryphon. Actually only a few of his actual SPAD XIII at all. But the few photos of other sqadron mates certainly were marked with the Gryphon. So this is way I say the jury is out on whether Barraca's did have the Gryphon on the starboard side. This is not to say it didn't though but only I'm not certain.
Highest Regards,
Gregory Jouette
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Thanks for the explanation, Gregory. I always love learning about the remaining weird little mysteries that surround these things...
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G'day, Gents.
Marco, thanks very much for the views of your beautiful model, it's a bit of an inspiration. That's a scheme I want to do, and I agree with your reasoning about the gryphon (mainly because I really like the heraldry!). And the tricolour lower wings will add a lot of interest compared to the usual cockades. Hobbycraft's instructions must either be guess work or, perhaps, another aircraft? Did Baracca fly another Spad XIII?
As for the rigging, it doesn't look as difficult as the Fe.2b's or the RE 8'sthat have been so well done by the forum members. And I'll keep telling myself that.....
However, I haven't found the decals anywhere on the net. That and the need to extend the wings (I looked through the Datafile I just bought when I was home last weekend and I'll need to find some more details) mean I have to make a decision:
1. Do this aircraft as Guynemer's aircraft using the kit markings (does it also need the wings extended?) and I'll look for another kit (while praying that WNW does one) and the FCM decals for Barraca? or
2. Finish as much as I can (I've already done some work on the floor, fuselage interior and instrument coaming) and then put the kit away while I wait for the decals to turn up?
Gregory, from Marco's model it would appear the gryphon is on the starboard side, not the port? Or do the photo's you've seen show the horse on the starboard side?
Oh well, back to fixing up the Pfalz. I'll be home for the next three weeks or so, so I can hopefully get it repaired and start making some more progress.
Cheers.
Dal.
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Dal,
The Gryphon if present would have been carried on the starboard ( Right) side. Unfortunately I've never found a photo depicting the Gryphon emblem on Barraca's SPAD XIII, but only a few photos of the port side of the aircraft with the Prancing Horse emblem present. All the photos I've seen depicted the port side only never the starboard.
Highest Regards,
Gregory Jouette
PS:Sorry for the confusion my friend apparently I need to paint have my hands painted blue for starboard and red for port again to get it straight .
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Hello Dal, Gregory et al,
Baracca's markings are well documented for at least one of his SPAD VIIs, but his XIII(s) are not so well photographed. I would be inclined to go with the interpretation of his SPAD XIII markings by the three respected Italian author/historian/Illustrators, Roberto Gentilli, Paolo Varriale and Antonio Iozzi in their book on the Italian Aces, published by Schiffer. In this book they illustrate Baracca's SPAD XIII serial S2445 and note that the serial is note known for certain. If the serial IS correct, S2445 was delivered to the 91a squadriglia with four others on 14 February 1918.
The presence of the Cavalino Rampante on the port side of a SPAD XIII flown by Baracca is documented in photographs, but the presence of the Squadriglia's rampant Griffin on the other side is a little open to conjecture. For the SPAD VIIs flown by him, clear photographic evidence exists of the gryphon/griffin being present on the starboard side and the prancing horse on the port. The squadron insignia was introduced during April 1918 and both the SPAD types, VII and XIII were flown by the 91a at the this time, so it is reasonable to suppose that Baracca's XIII carried the horse to port and the Gryphon to starboard.
Regarding the location and presence of roundels, there were certainly none above the wings but the underside is not known for certain. It seems most likely that the red port, starboard green flag colours were worn (note that the centre section was generally left in the standard underside finish and not painted white in MOST cases). The Tail stripes are recorded as (front to back), green white red. It seems possible or even probable that the Bleriot-produced SPAD XIIIs (like S2445) were delivered without national markings applied and these were applied locally - probably at the Aircraft Park. In the case of Baracca's XIII, the red outer ring on the fuselage was painted in the colour order red (outer), white and green (inner) to make it stand out against the camouflaged fuselage.
In conclusion, SPAD XIII 2445 was returned to an aviation park on 21st May and Baracca was killed in a SPAD VII S5382 on 19th June.
All the above is a precis of information contained in the Aces book - it is expensive to buy, but well worth it if you have an interest in the Italian Front airwar. Much of the information is also contained in smaller (and cheaper...) Osprey Italian Aces volume by Paolo Varriale, also highly recommended.
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G'day, Gents.
Gregory, no need to apologise, old mate, I think we've all had that same problem. With embarrassing consequences, especially if you're on parade and are "the only one to turn the right way".... :-[
Rowan, thanks so much for the detailed info and advice on the books. I have found Italian Aces of World War I and Their Aircraft at a reasonable price, $32.50 from Tiber Books in the US. Even with postage it's less than $50, opposed to $189 being asked by an Australian vendor. I haven't developed a particular interest in Italian aces of WWI, but I only need the slightest excuse to spend money on books!
I haven't totally stopped on this kit, these small sub-assemblies are easy to take on trips and give me something to do in the hotel.
Cheers.
Dal.
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Dear Dal,
I did not spot your thread earlier, I could have tried to help, as far as possible, but I see most of our mates have provided you with correct information.
First of all take my compliments for your work, it is really fantastic. Then (aleays as far as I know) I only have the doubt about the Gryphon on the starboard side... as some of our friends have said there is no evidence about it on Baracca's (one "r" and two "c"s :-) ) XIII.
Personally I would have chosen the horse on both sides because not everybody wore the squadriglia insignia on their planes and normally the personal signs were considered more distinctive, but in this case your choice is as valid as mine, and it is likely for the reasons reported by Rowan.
Again bravo for your work!
Antonio
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G'day, Andonio.
Thanks for the compliment and your thoughts. Felipe is re-releasing the decals used by Marco and I've found an article that describes a way to extend and reshape the wings, so I'll keep fiddling with the kit.
And I've corrected the spelling of Baracca's name, too. :)
Cheers,
Dal.
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G'day.
I managed to acquire Italian Aces of WWI and their Aircraft and their Aircraft (thanks for the recommendation!) and it's interesting that the plate (71) of Baracca's S2445also shows it with the later style of wing. Did the Italians paint out the upper wing roundels or did the factory just leave them off, I wonder?
Anyway, I'm probably going to get the Roden Spad VII and do that as Baracca's (there's a photo that shows the gryphon on the port fuselage of one Spad VII) and do this Spad XIII as a French aircraft, when Felipe re-releases his FCM sheet.
Cheers.
Dal.
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Dear All,
I would like to add some extra information about the Baracca's Horse colour.
In the article show in this link http://www.arsm.it/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=100:prova-il-qcavallino-rampanteq-di-francesco-baracca&catid=50:mezzi-terrestri&Itemid=66, the author talk about the fact that the horse was probably painted in red. The other members whore the black as sign of condolences when Baraccas felt in combat.
I'm sorry but the article is in Italian.
There are few evidences about that, more: the griffon in our Air Force show the Griffon in red, and the F16 special colour of X gruppo in which the legacy of the Squadriglia degli Assi is still alive, whore the red colours both Griffon and Horse.
For more information I can contact the former commander , who celebrates his 1000 hours flying the F16, and can ask more information about.
For my part , the Spad that I'm plannig to build , will show the red horse and griffon.
In any case I salute the splendid work shown in this tread , Grazie Mille
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Hi Guys,
Been following this thread with interest. According to Gregory Alegi the prancing horse was never red-only black. In his new DF, Italian Spads at War!, co-authored with Paolo Varriale, and published later this month, the colours and markings of many Italian Spad aces are described. Ronny Bar has produced some stunning new profiles of VII and XIII types to support the narrative; a full survey of surviving Italian Spads is also featured. Hopefully the book will clear up some of the points raised.
Happy modelling!
Ray R.
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I'm really courious to see what is stated in that book.
But I'm still sure that the horse is red ... not black
see here the legacy http://www.flickr.com/photos/il_rinforzino_corner/3910177990/
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G'day, Ray and Alex.
Ray, what is this- some sort of conspiracy to encourage my growing interest in WWI Italian aircraft? ;D Whatever, it's worked and I'll be getting that as soon as it's published.
Alex, I'm afraid my Italian is not up to translating that page, but Google Translate did a fairly good job. I agree, the painting in the Casa dell'Aviatore is near contemporary evidence for red and any of his squadron mates who saw the painting would definitely have asked the horse to be repainted, if it was wrong. The reason for changing to black also makes sense as well. However the case for a black horse, as made by Gentilli, Iozzi and Varriale, is also very strong.
Time to read more references, I think. Ray, where's that new book? Or perhaps do two of Baracca's aircraft, one with a black and one with a red horse.....
Many thanks for your input, gents.
Cheers.
Dal.
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Hello again,
after have found and buy the necessary ( I hope ) colours for the Spad ( french 5 tons scheme ), I have a new doubt : I have an old Esci box, and for sentimental reasons I would like to keep as it is for collection. Now i need another box : I think about to buy a revell 4192 Spad XIII C-1 or Academy 1623 SPAD XIII WWI Fighter.
Any advise please?
Grazie :)
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if you wish to buy a 1/72 spad xiii model kit i suggest eduard. this is the best 1/72 spad kit anywhere.
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Hi folks!
I am not an expert myself, but never heard of a Baracca's horse in red... It sounds almost as blasphemy to an Italian ear ;)
Here you can find a small report I did last year for Italian Army Day (nov 4th)
http://www.aeroscale.co.uk/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=166632#1399856 (http://www.aeroscale.co.uk/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=166632#1399856)
hope you'll enjoy!
Ciao
Edo
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Hello ,
thank you for your advises.
@ Edo.
Nice pics. Have you shoot on both sides?.
Concerning the "blasphemy": I will ask again around about that.
Did you have read the link in my previuos post.
I await for your comments
Regards
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Hi,
unfortunately I don't have pics of the other side...
The photo was taken last year and the plane is a fliyng replica. have you tryed the link I gave on the Aeroscale thread? it should bring you to the museum where it is displayed maybe you could find some pics there.
And, no, I haven't read the article yet. I could try to translate it in english (should be fun and maybe I could also learn something...). PM me if you are interested
ciao
Edo
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try this two links:
the first one is the Piave Museum (which owns the flying replica), the second is the Baracca Museum in his birth city.
Its seems one side horse, the other grypho, both black...
www.museodelpiavevincenzocolognese.it/ (click 'lo SPAD XIII' on the left, there is a video of the maiden flight of the replica and of the building of the plane)
www.museobaracca.it/ (click 'il museo F. Baracca' under 'IL "MUSEO VIRTUALE" ', then click 'Esposizione SPAD VII' on the museum plan)
ciao
Edo
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Just reading the topic and while looking at one of Edo's links found this which seems to verify the BLACK horse (just as I was thinking about doing a RED one on my Nieuport 17...
http://www.museobaracca.it/Il-Cavallino-Rampante
Dave