forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com
WW1 Aircraft Modeling => WW1 Aircraft Information/Questions => Topic started by: KiwiZac on May 04, 2015, 06:49:06 AM
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Hi all,
I'm building up a library of reference material for when I take the plunge into WNW, and one of the kits I'm planning is the Pfalz D.IIIa as Friedrich Rudenberg's 1371/17:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51041327662_77ed61e710_b.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/gp/zacyates/k2UGHF)pfalz-diii-137117-lt-friedrich-rudenberg-jasta-10_50646306976_o (https://www.flickr.com/gp/zacyates/k2UGHF) by Zac Yates (https://www.flickr.com/photos/zacyates/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51040504193_818f3b2cef_b.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/gp/zacyates/z2G805)pfalz-diii-137117-lt-friedrich-rudenberg-jasta-10_50645561438_o (https://www.flickr.com/gp/zacyates/z2G805) by Zac Yates (https://www.flickr.com/photos/zacyates/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51040504193_818f3b2cef_b.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/gp/zacyates/z2G805)pfalz-diii-137117-lt-friedrich-rudenberg-jasta-10_50645561438_o (https://www.flickr.com/gp/zacyates/z2G805) by Zac Yates (https://www.flickr.com/photos/zacyates/), on Flickr
I just have a couple of questions I was hoping the ww1aircraftmodels Brains Trust could assist me with:
- are there any decals for his machine in 1/32? All I've found is 1/144!
- pointed or rounded lower wing? Profiles and models show pointed, I can't quite tell from the above photo
- what's the best Tamiya acrylic paint match/an FS ref for "Chrome Yellow" as used on Jasta 10's struts, wheels and cowls?
I've trawled Google for any/all images I can find, including those above and a fantastic skin (and screenshots of) for use in Rise Of Flight and Russell Smith's painting, but any additional info would be greatly appreciated.
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In answer to your questions I do not think that their are any decals for this bird. Next answer is that this is a DIII as produced by Roden so pointed lower wing tips. Now for the HARD part. The DIII had the Machine guns Mounted Internally versus the WNW DIIIa version which had them externally mounted. It is not Impossible to re work/ convert the WNW kit but the effort needed would be better spent enhancing the Roden kit. JMHO,
RAGIII
PS: There are some really great schemes for the DIIIa from JG!/Jasta 10 and 4. There are no aftermarket decals but most are easy enough to mask the stripes or noses or whatever. If you do not feel comfortable masking look at some of Pheons JGII or Jasta 30 sheets for great schemes.
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Thanks again RAG, you're a tremendous help! Re the markings, I'm thinking this may be a good opportunity to try printing my own serials as there's no A/M option out there currently. I've looked at Pheon's webpage and there are a ton of options, I may end up with multiple Pfalzes!
Interestingly - and as I was hoping - the WNW kit includes both lower wing types but as you've pointed out, the guns could be an issue. The only other Pfalz I have in mind to build is the Viv Bellamy-built, Ray Hillbourne-designed Accurate Pfalz from The Blue Max, so perhaps I could use the decals from the Encore Pfalz on a WNW Pfalz to produce that aircraft and then use the Encore/Roden plastic for Rudenberg's machine?
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G'day, Zac.
The WNW D.IIIa does include the early and late lower wings, mate. It's also a brilliant kit to build. About the only things you'd need to print are the serials, as the crosses in the kit will work. Masking the fuselage band will be a challenge, though.
As for the Chrome Yellow, I don't of a Tamiya equivalent (apart from the spray cans) but Vallejo Air and Lifecolor have it in their ranges.
Cheers.
Dal.
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Hi Zac,
For the Yellow on my D.III (brought out of retirement - again!) I mixed Tamiya yellow with some Tamiya clear orange and clear yellow. I'm happy with the results.
The crosses and black bar were hand cut masks ( I now own a vinyl cutter which makes the job soooo much easier! See Pfalz DIIIa below ) The serial number was home made printed decal and the rest, as they say, is history!
Roden - DIII Jasta 10 - Hans Klein
(http://bobsbuckles.co.uk/gallery/pf4.jpg)
Wingnut - DIIIa MFJ III - Unknown pilot
(http://bobsbuckles.co.uk/gallery/1-DIIIa.jpg)
Von Buckle ;)
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Zac,
I used Tamiya XF-3 Flat Yellow, I like the darker and slightly "oranger" tone compared to their Lemon yellow, X-8 I believe.
(http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n583/lcarroll1/SE%205a%20and%20Beyond/IMG_2734.jpg) (http://s1141.photobucket.com/user/lcarroll1/media/SE%205a%20and%20Beyond/IMG_2734.jpg.html)
Cheers,
Lance
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Hi Zac,
Here is a color swatch of chrome yellow, which is more of an orange color. While Bob did a great job on his Pfalz I do not think he got the Jasta 10 yellow correct, looks like he used a plain yellow. I did a Jasta 10 aircraft years ago using the old aurora kit and mixed up a color that looked orange, and seems to be a good match to the color swatch seen here:
http://colors.findthedata.com/l/657/Chrome-Yellow
Dave
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you would be better off using rodens kit as this seems to be a d.iii not a d.iiia. there are some pretty pronounced differences, mainly the guns are internal to the fuselage , instead of external on the deck plus the stab/elevators are shaped differently etc. as far as the marking i dont know of any decals for this scheme but if you feel you could mask the red striped tail you would mainly only need the serial number for the side decal wise. somewhere i had the pfalz fonts i will try to see if i can find them and you could theorhetically print them on decal sheet at home and do this nice looking pfalz still.
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Wow, thanks again guys! This is all very helpful. I have plenty of XF-3, so Lance your build is a big help and thanks Dave for the link. I'm thinking if I were to use a spraycan then Camel Yellow would do the job? Or am I right in thinking it may be too orange? I'm also off to Photobucket to look at Lance's build as it looks great and will be a great inspiration.
Thanks Bob! I recently read through the build thread on your second Pfalz and it was a great insight into building the WNW kit. Masking is definitely the way I was wanting to go with the red on the tail feathers, I may have to get creative with the fuselage stripe.
albatros1234 - that would be very helpful, I've been meaning to try printing my own marks for ages and this would be a great subject to start with.
So I think I have a clear plan of attack:
- buy the Encore "Blue Max" Pfalz and build the kit as Rudenberg's D.III as shown above
- buy the WNW D.IIIa and build Stachel's machine (after restoration in NZ, as below*) with the Encore decals and rob some markings (eg crosses, weights) for my Rudenberg build
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51788073346_36e70f9662_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mUkpWj)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2mUkpWj) by Zac Yates (https://www.flickr.com/photos/zacyates/), on Flickr
Thanks again everyone! I knew I came to the right place. Now to actually get my hands on the kits...
*Just realised I have another question. The Encore instructions I've seen say that this Pfalz had black cowl, struts and wheels in the movie, but in person the restored aircraft has not black but more of a dark blue-grey. Does anyone have any suggestions for this?
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Good luck, Zac ;)
Remember one thing.... have fun! Everything else is just dust and air!
Von B
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Good luck, Zac ;)
Remember one thing.... have fun!
This is something I always have in the back of my head, regardless of the build! 8) Thanks Bob!
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Hi Zac, I don't have a swatch of Tamiya Camel yellow but looking online I would say it is not orange enough! Don't forget according to the link I posted earlier, 'Chrome Yellow' is a shade of Orange that is 100% saturated and 100% bright. So it should be darker and oranger than any old yellow, probably the reason the Jasta 10 Chrome Yellow cowls photographed as black, while the yellow used on Sachsenberg's Fokker D.VII did not. Here's something I found online, and while this guy builds Nascar autos, color is color. And of the 4 colors that are shown on the plastic spoons, the Testors Grabber Orange is about the best chrome yellow I have seen out of the bottle.
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k489/davecww1/yellow.jpg)
Dave
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Zac, are you an enamels guy, or acrylics guy? I use Model master chrome yellow for my 1930's stuff, but add a few drops of well mixed red to brighten it up. seems a good match to my eye.
As an aside: I wonder how much German paint color changed between the wars? I sometimes think RLM colors ought to be close to WWI colors. Maybe not across the board, but for many of the colors.
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Acrylics, born and raised! I'm not familiar with Model Master's paint, is it enamel?
Re the RLM colours, not a silly idea. I'm sure someone out there has done the research to show one way or the other.
davecww1 - thanks for the very illuminating photo! That Testors one certainly looks right, whereas the Tamiya XF-3 I used on my 1/72 attempt is far too pale/lemony.
Thanks again to everyone for their input. As I said earlier, step two is actually getting the kit!
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.....Re the RLM colours, not a silly idea. I'm sure someone out there has done the research to show one way or the other..
Steady, Zac! Someone once suggested in an online forum that RLM 02 was the same in WWI and all grey-green of that period was, in fact, RLM02. The poor bugger has been villified ever since!
All I would suggest is that the British army painted their equipment Khaki, the French, Bleu d'horizon and the Germans used Feldgrau for the same purposes. As far as I know there were no standardised colours for any of these basic shades during WWI, just generalised descriptions which were probably met equally vaguely by different manufacturers - the phrase "close enough for government work" has to have arisen somewhere! Standardisation and mass production were very new concepts during this time and nowhere near as widespread as in WWII, for instance.
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.....Re the RLM colours, not a silly idea. I'm sure someone out there has done the research to show one way or the other..
Steady, Zac! Someone once suggested in an online forum that RLM 02 was the same in WWI and all grey-green of that period was, in fact, RLM02. The poor bugger has been villified ever since!
All I would suggest is that the British army painted their equipment Khaki, the French, Bleu d'horizon and the Germans used Feldgrau for the same purposes. As far as I know there were no standardised colours for any of these basic shades during WWI, just generalised descriptions which were probably met equally vaguely by different manufacturers - the phrase "close enough for government work" has to have arisen somewhere! Standardisation and mass production were very new concepts during this time and nowhere near as widespread as in WWII, for instance.
So let me get this straight, Rowan. Are you suggesting for one moment that the yellow on my DIII could actually be correct? That's motions to War, my friend! ;D
Von Savedfromrespray ;)
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Point taken, Rowen. In my plan for world domination, I'd use an RLM shade as a potential base for a WWI color. I did use RLM02 for a Fokker green, but lightened it up with a straight green IIRC.
KiwiZac, Modelmaster is enamel, but way up here they also have an acrylic line.
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there is a great article in windsock vol 5 no.4 by ian huntley titled "pc-10 "A" a brief history of the first khaki varnish" where he talks about the different doping methods. sometimes they did coats of clear shrinking dope then colored pigmented dope(mainly early on) other times it was pigmented shrinking dope.at least 5 different methods that have been discovered. the variety of methods and different mixing ratios is why pc-10 ranges from brownish green to chocolate brown. there were different varnishes as well some yellowed more giving different tones. amount of UV exposure plus different factories used different mixes and different methods. there was NO standardization whatsoever so anyone that argues that in ww1 this color was exactly this or that is most likely wrong. you can only use the suggestions as a guideline. my guideline is what looks good to me mixed with what people i respect say it was similar too.
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Apologies all, I didn't mean for my flippant, off-hand comment to start something different to discussion of my chosen Pfalzes!
Thanks for the tip Mike!
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Zac, you're welcome. I'm curious how an RLM yellow would look compared to say, a US 1930's chrome yellow. In scale or, for scale effect might it be more suitable?
Albie, WWI Aero #137/August '92 had a similar article; pretty interesting.
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Hi Zac,
I'm an enamels guy myself, but acrylics work the same, use basic colors you have, yellow and red, then mix them together until you get a light orange color that matches the chrome yellow color chip. And don't forget, the Jasta 10 chrome yellow was not a color supplied by the German army, it was by no means a standard color so it was probably mixed in the field, so much red added to that can of yellow until it looked like Herr Voss's cowl... you get the picture!
Dave
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Thanks Dave, I don't know why I automatically thought Chrome Yellow was a standard colour.
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so much red added to that can of yellow until it looked like Herr Voss's cowl... you get the picture!
Wow! You mean you can add enough red to the yellow to make it olive? Neato-mosquito! ;) ;) ;) :) ;D :D
Warren
Sorry, couldn't resist guys.
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Just a joke Warren! You probably remember the debates about that at the Aerodrome, I for one used olive for MY F1. But since Jasta 10 was the only Jasta to use the Chrome yellow that photographed black I'm thinking they mixed their own or got it locally. Of course that was using ortho but so did most of the cameras used back then which is a completely different subject. To get back to the topic here is one you might like, from around 1990 using the old Aurora kit...
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k489/davecww1/pfalz.jpg)
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I was kidding too Dave! Everyone knows that Voss' cowling was plaid.
Warren
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Nice work Dave.
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Bumped as I fixed my photo links (thanks, Photobucket). And now I'm thinking 1/48 might be better for this project...
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Depending on which kit you have it might be possible to patch together the serial from the availble? The rest seems to be generic crosses/stencils or can be painted. I did that for this very machine, but with a 1/72 Roden :)
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I'm still yet to get a kit for this project but always happy to gather information and advice - a very good call, thank you!