forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com
WW1 Aircraft Modeling => Hints and Tips/Questions about modeling => Topic started by: petrov27 on March 20, 2015, 03:03:54 AM
-
Heya,
I am not hugely thrilled with my results on finishing Spandau/vickers etc - just wondering if folks can share what techniques work for them?
I have been airbrushing black then drybrushing with a dark metallic paint but this tends to look somewhat too contrasty (if that is a word?) for the extremely fine detail now on the Gaspatch and Master barrel options we have.
Any suggestions/tips are most appreciated!
-
Hey, Patrick! There are others here that are far better at finishing guns than I am, but I have a very simple technique that I'm quite happy with. I simply spray the gun with NATO Black, then run a #2 pencil over it to pick out the details and give it a more metallic look.
(http://i1022.photobucket.com/albums/af342/coyotemagic_photos/WNW%20Triplane/DSC02116_zpscdd6b9a5.jpg)
(http://i1022.photobucket.com/albums/af342/coyotemagic_photos/WNW%20Triplane/DSC02117_zps18fc7dd2.jpg)
Cheers,
Bud
-
Ok, where's Bo when we need him. He painted a Spandau that has very nice color variations of gunmetals, warm browns, and cool blues that you don't usually see on models. I think it's for his Albie. Ask the master, maybe he will share his secrets.
George
-
I usually use Tamiya semi gloss black, mixed with a small drop of Tamiya dark brown.
This results in a warm black-brown tone. In this pictures the Hansa Brandenburg W.29 Guns, the PE part is chemically blackened and not painted.
Over all an extremely highly diluted dark brown oil paint with an airbrush. If this paint step is dried, again a very thin coating with extremely highly dilute medium gray oil paint. Seal with Tamiya matt-clear or semi gloss clear.
(http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h342/ASKundASK/Hansa%20Brandenburg/LMG6_zps2490cc21.jpg) (http://s1105.photobucket.com/user/ASKundASK/media/Hansa%20Brandenburg/LMG6_zps2490cc21.jpg.html)
(http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h342/ASKundASK/Hansa%20Brandenburg/LMG5_zps49072bc7.jpg) (http://s1105.photobucket.com/user/ASKundASK/media/Hansa%20Brandenburg/LMG5_zps49072bc7.jpg.html)
(http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h342/ASKundASK/Hansa%20Brandenburg/MG6_zps94c2fed8.jpg) (http://s1105.photobucket.com/user/ASKundASK/media/Hansa%20Brandenburg/MG6_zps94c2fed8.jpg.html)
(http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h342/ASKundASK/Hansa%20Brandenburg/MG8_zps670e67c2.jpg) (http://s1105.photobucket.com/user/ASKundASK/media/Hansa%20Brandenburg/MG8_zps670e67c2.jpg.html)
(http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h342/ASKundASK/Hansa%20Brandenburg/MG7_zps952e7c59.jpg) (http://s1105.photobucket.com/user/ASKundASK/media/Hansa%20Brandenburg/MG7_zps952e7c59.jpg.html)
(http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h342/ASKundASK/Hansa%20Brandenburg/MG9_zps12dd96a0.jpg) (http://s1105.photobucket.com/user/ASKundASK/media/Hansa%20Brandenburg/MG9_zps12dd96a0.jpg.html)
-
Ok, where's Bo when we need him. He painted a Spandau that has very nice color variations of gunmetals, warm browns, and cool blues that you don't usually see on models. I think it's for his Albie. Ask the master, maybe he will share his secrets.
George
Do you mean these (WIP)?
(http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh640/UncleTony1917/Fokd7gb/file_zps93e4bf84.jpg)
Alclad aluminum base coat / alclad trans. blue / alclad trans. red / topped w/ custom mix of tamiya nato black, smoke & gloss black. Still need a little graphite to pick out the deets.
-
Thanks gents for all the fine suggestions - I will aim to try a few here shortly! :)
On the 1:1 guns of this era, were they blued metal or coated/painted?
-
Yes Bo. I guess I don't know the difference between an Albatros and a Fokker...
-
This is what the guns look like in Le Musee de L'air at Le Bourget, Paris.
(http://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-bSa6oZJX7ek/U2eMewRL0DI/AAAAAAAATOU/Yoyl4dDGQmc/s1024-no/IMAGE_873.jpg)
(http://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ZQwbjwm0Vtk/U2eMrNBdPrI/AAAAAAAATOc/ICOYqujws5A/s1024-no/IMAGE_874.jpg)
(http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-coWA4Uoiqd8/VHIeP52BuXI/AAAAAAAAVKI/HZwQahVDoJw/s1024-no/IMAGE_1485.jpg)
The Spandau was displayed in the Museum of Flight Seattle.Please keep in mind that this is all inside in a darkened display area, whereas the first two pictures show the guns with a high degree of natural daylight falling on the exhibit cases.
This Spandau was seen in Munich last year.
(http://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-aLjxmMgKhKI/UombVE1TcKI/AAAAAAAASEs/lAUCUSXBcZo/s1024-no/IMAGE_408.jpg)
I have not tinkered about with the settings on the camera, ie saturation etc.
Having spent some time looking at them, this is what the actual weapons look like.
Hope this is of help?
-
I know a lot of people use Alclad metallic colours but they make my skin crawl. So is there an acrylic alternative? Right now I use Tamiya Aluminum or steel and then hand paint with vallejo.
James
-
small world Dave -- I've seen all those displays in person too :)
-
Long, long ago, before the dark times, in the days of the old Republic, I used to collect firearms from both world wars. As a result, the finish of weapons was of interest to me.
- I'm still puzzled by Vickers MG's. I've got the Mini-DF, but I can't recall that it goes into the finish. I've seen some that appear to have been blued, some that appear to have been browned, and then some that appear to have been painted. Granted, most of what I've been able to see in person were those used by ground troops, and none that were, or were intended to be, mounted on a/c. Any help here folks?
- When looking at originals, realize that the bluing (in many cases a chemically controlled rusting) can change in color over time.
- I really appreciate the special recipes posted by the forumites here, BUT: you say "I start with X, and a drop of Y". I can guesstimate a drop of Y pretty well, but it really does matter if we know just how much of X you're starting with. Is it an airbrush cup? A whole bottle? A few drops?
- Bo, when you say that you start with an Alclad aluminum base coat, do you apply that coat straight on to the part, or do you undercoat it first with black or some other color? I've got a bottle, haven't used it yet, but IF memory serves, this paint is supposed to be painted over some kind of base coat, right?
Warren
-
- Bo, when you say that you start with an Alclad aluminum base coat, do you apply that coat straight on to the part, or do you undercoat it first with black or some other color? I've got a bottle, haven't used it yet, but IF memory serves, this paint is supposed to be painted over some kind of base coat, right?
Warren
Nah, it's just lacquer, you can spray it directly on the part -- but the usual precautions with spraying lacquer on styrene apply! Let it pool on wet and it will melt or at least eat into your work. So -- adjust pressure and distance so the paint is drying just as it hits. Not hard. Black undercoat is only imperative if you are trying to achieve a chrome-like finish.
However the guns shown in my photo above are Gaspatch and made from something new age (some kind of photopolymer is my guess) -- seems impervious to lacquer as far as I can tell.
As far as ratios etc goes, when it comes to mixing colors and painting, I just go by instinct. I usually test spray a couple of analogs first if I'm not sure where I'm going- in the case of machine guns, WNW thoughtfully includes a set of styrene jacketed spares that are perfect for the task.
-
Since I do 1/48 scale I try to use more artistic licence, I know that the actual guns were painted black but try to make mine look more three dimensional. i start by painting the overall gun a dark gray, Model Master Gunship Gray works nicely. When dry I give it an overall black wash, this shows a lot of details in the recessed areas, To finish it off I take a soft artists pencil and rub it on sandpaper to get a small pile of graphite powder, then I brush this over the raised edges to give it a metallic sheen. Pretty simple but the 3 different colors/textures give the guns more of a 3 dimensional look than painting them black or gunmetal. Here is one of the GasPatch Lewis guns on my 1/48 scale Nieuport 11 done with this method.
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k489/davecww1/GEDC0011.jpg)
And here is an Eduard Lewis for use on my Nieuport triplane.
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k489/davecww1/n42-1.jpg)
-
Thanks Bo for the clarity on that. I do plan on some experimenting with Alclad on my next build, utilizing various undercoats to see what I can create.
Warren
-
I know a lot of people use Alclad metallic colours but they make my skin crawl. So is there an acrylic alternative? Right now I use Tamiya Aluminum or steel and then hand paint with vallejo.
James
You mean they physically make you sick?
I haven't found a water-based paint that looks as good as Alclad metallics. It's all down to the particle size.
-
I have a love hate relationship with AlcladII. Love the results but I generally hate it when I screw it up. The High Shine line of AlcladII does require a very glossy black or, depending on the effect you want, whatever color you'd like to use.
Anyone using the Humbrol Metal Coat Gunmetal?
-
I know a lot of people use Alclad metallic colours but they make my skin crawl. So is there an acrylic alternative? Right now I use Tamiya Aluminum or steel and then hand paint with vallejo.
James
You mean they physically make you sick?
I haven't found a water-based paint that looks as good as Alclad metallics. It's all down to the particle size.
Not sick Bo, but skin crawls. Same as in the summer when I drive by the flight line the Jet fuel makes my skin crawl. Probably to much time around engines and I'm getting sensitive to the solvents and gasses. I've switched almost 100% to acrylics now. I guess I'll keep on with the Tamiya paint.
James
-
I'll look for those. Thanks.
James
-
Mr Metal Colors make a good range of lacquer based metallic paints. They spray beautifully, dry nearly instantly and can be buffed to a really nice sheen if required, I have used their iron and dark iron on my guns with highlights of stainless, looks quite good. As with all lacquer paints a good respirator is needed when spraying.
Des.
-
Never seen those Vallejo alcohol metallics before; do you just use isopropryl alcohol to thin for airbrushing them?
-
Not all guns were all black/metal. There's an example of a Vickers in the RAF museum, at Hendon, that has the cooling jacket painted a kind of khaki drab colour. I can't remember if the display stated exactly what aircraft it came off but it was the type for use on aircraft and was in the WW1 display, in the Graham-White building.
-
Squiffy, if you look at my previous post, I noted that some Vickers I had seen had a khaki or drab finish, BUT their provenance was uncertain at best, etc. I've seen parkerized U.S. rifles from WWI, yet parkerizing wasn't used here until postwar. Of course, they have been refinished postwar. (They went wild with it, parkerizing everything in sight they could find, LOL! Even Indian Wars bayonets for Trapdoor Springfields.)
Warren
-
Never seen those Vallejo alcohol metallics before; do you just use isopropryl alcohol to thin for airbrushing them?
No need to thin them . They are for airbrushing , I use their copper .
Terri
-
have you ever tryed humbrol metal cote gunmetal? its a buffing metallizer. you spray it and it looks like super flat charcoal color. then you buff it with a old paintbrush. i use dedicated brush to do this and also humbrol metal cote steel. the brushs you use to buff saturted with metallic pigment and can be used to drybrush.
-
I have used the Humbrol Metal Cote colours and find them to be pretty good, can be buffed after only 20 minutes.
Des.
-
in the case of machine guns, WNW thoughtfully includes a set of styrene jacketed spares that are perfect for the task
Now i know why they are included at all - i still have to see a build where the non-PE Spandaus are used...
Stefan
-
Alclad aluminum base coat / alclad trans. blue / alclad trans. red / topped w/ custom mix of tamiya nato black, smoke & gloss black. Still need a little graphite to pick out the deets.
Bo-san,
Do I assume correctly that you mean that the Alumn., blue and red are applied in succession? Re: the Alclad colored transparents.....do you feel Tamiya clears would work as well?
Also, can you go into a little more detail re: your custom mix....ratio and thinning. Is it a wash? Brush or airbrush applied?
Thank you, Sensei,
Grasshopper
-
Bo-san,
Do I assume correctly that you mean that the Alumn., blue and red are applied in succession?
yepper
Re: the Alclad colored transparents.....do you feel Tamiya clears would work as well?
The alclad goes on thinner, colors are a little bit different. I use both from time to time.
Also, can you go into a little more detail re: your custom mix....ratio and thinning. Is it a wash? Brush or airbrush applied?
applied by airbrush, thinned to skim milk consistency with tamiya X-10, but i didn't keep notes on the color ratios, simply mixed to "taste"… probably roughly 1:2:1 (?)
-
Am I the only one who keeps reading the thread title as "Gun fishing trips"???
I keep having these flash visions of our US stalwarts on the forum, all armed with shotguns, handguns, assault rifles (like all American men, right?) sitting in a boat drifting down a river firing randomly into the water.......
Sorry, just thought I'd share.
-
assault rifles (like all American men, right?) sitting in a boat drifting down a river firing randomly into the water.......
Yer, Damn Right, Pard.......yew gotta problem with that, Limey? >:(
(XXXOOO!!)
(PS Dee-cals arrived, merci beaucoup, mon ami!)
-
Am I the only one who keeps reading the thread title as "Gun fishing trips"???
I keep having these flash visions of our US stalwarts on the forum, all armed with shotguns, handguns, assault rifles (like all American men, right?) sitting in a boat drifting down a river firing randomly into the water.......
Sorry, just thought I'd share.
And you write that as if something were wrong with that. :-\ :o ;D
Warren
-
Interesting how the Southerners are the first to reply to this......y'all. I 'spec Cajun'll be along directly.
-
Just add beer!
"Live Action!"
Warren
-
well... I keep reading "gunship tips" and think of some gondola - like thread for a Zeppelin....
this too has to mean something....
maybe I just can't read right! ;)
ciao
Edo
-
well i am half cajun french,live in the south(new orleans) and i dont own an armory, nor am i an outdoorsy type. just like you aussies arent necessarily jumping into a crocodile pond with a bowie knife in your teeth and you brits arent necessarily sipping earl grey with butter biscuits in an english garden.....stereotypes eh?
-
.....stereotypes eh?
But they're kind of fun when not taken seriously. This is a forum about gluing and painting bits and pieces together to make a little aeroplane. There's no way we can be taking each other too seriously. :)
Warren
-
Oi, young Albatros, I'll 'ave you know, good sir, that I take tea every afternoon at 4pm precisely, with cucumber sandwiches with the crust cut orf.
Sorry boys and girls, should stop this now or the grown-ups will get cross. Not to mention sullying a perfectly good and useful thread with such frivolity. Back to silent running.
-
I have tried several methods with guns. I don't go too overboard about trying to make the guns historically accurate, so unless the instructions specify otherwise, I aim for a blackened effect with metallic highlights.
I sometimes paint with matt or satin black first, then use my buffing brush (it usually has enough metallic pigment from previous Mr Metal buffing) to dry brush the metallic features. Alternatively I'll use Mr Metal Iron or Humbrol metalcote buffed up, and if I think the metal is too bright I'll apply a black wash.
I have tried the brass jackets but haven't yet mastered the rolling technique so I stick to the molded plastic guns. The tonal effect of black and metallic gives a good enough effect (for me) as opposed to monochromatic black or metal.
Earl Grey? Pah! Tetley every day for me!
-
Ian, thanks for jumping into the river and pulling us back on topic.
I plan to try both Bo and Bertl's processes. My only problem with chemical blackener is this: I used one called Blacken-it which is made for the hobby trade. It did indeed blacken some PE I was working with but also left a scale which has continued to flake off. Not sure what the cause was as the substance has worked well in the past.
Re: the other topic which is running concurrently with this.....I consider myself a Southerner by heritage and birth but have lived most of my adult life in NYC. As Warren said stereotypes can be fun when taken as fun and nothing more.
PG Tips for me, BTW.
-
It did indeed blacken some PE I was working with but also left a scale which has continued to flake off. Not sure what the cause was as the substance has worked well in the past.
Parts need to be really clean before blackening… no grease at all.
-
Is there some sort of "mold release" on PE parts? I never had this problem with white metal parts.
-
Is there some sort of "mold release" on PE parts? I never had this problem with white metal parts.
The brass jackets are machined, so by definition they've probably come into contact with lubricant. PE goes through several stages of chemistry, and then potentially gets handled during packing, unpacking and assembly...
-
OK...I didn't realize that.....thanks. These are the sorts of things I need to know to graduate to a higher level of model building. Having been doing so off and on since 1958ish, it is very hard to break the mind set of, buy it, open it, build it, hang it from the ceiling.
-
Thanks for the tips again - in particular regarding the blackening - I have a bottle of the Uschi liquid for brass gun barrels on the way and I will make sure I clean the brass first (any recommendations on what to use for that? Acetone maybe?)
-
Yes … Acetone works pretty well as a degreaser...
-
Oil from your fingers perhaps?
Warren