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WW1 Aircraft Modeling => WW1 Aircraft Information/Questions => Topic started by: JoeDxMB on June 14, 2012, 08:35:44 AM

Title: Question about colored doped linen....
Post by: JoeDxMB on June 14, 2012, 08:35:44 AM
When depicting a CDL fuselage, the same basic color is used on the interior exposed linen .

Now, what about fuselage linen that is painted with  other than clear dope? Does the color bleed throgh to the cockpit  side.
Example... ....what about a fusalage that is painted entirely of silver dope.  How would one depict the interior linen? Would it be a shade of silver?

Did they perhaps first usually  seal the linen with clear dope before over painting it with color?   
Title: Re: Question about colored doped linen....
Post by: kornbeef on June 14, 2012, 09:03:30 AM
Theres some evidence of bleeding through yes though to what extent I wouldnt know.  Shots of Swordfish and One or two of Sopwiths (I'm pretty sure I've seen internal shots of a Pup or Tripehound) have a reddish tint to them as the linen was primed with red oxide coloured first it's said.  I for one though tend to make the inner face of the linen somewhat paler than the thickly doped exterior.

Hope this helps

Keith
Title: Re: Question about colored doped linen....
Post by: JoeDxMB on June 14, 2012, 09:27:08 AM
Theres some evidence of bleeding through yes though to what extent I wouldnt know.  Shots of Swordfish and One or two of Sopwiths (I'm pretty sure I've seen internal shots of a Pup or Tripehound) have a reddish tint to them as the linen was primed with red oxide coloured first it's said.  I for one though tend to make the inner face of the linen somewhat paler than the thickly doped exterior.

Hope this helps

Keith

Yes, it definately does help.  :)

BTW,  I plan  on depicting  an all silver (excepct for a red  cowl)  Morane Sauliner A-1.   
Title: Re: Question about colored doped linen....
Post by: JoeDxMB on June 14, 2012, 09:36:11 AM
In the case of Alied aircraft, the later, so CDL on the inside, PC10 / 12 on the outside.

I'm not shure exactly what you mean.... can you please elaborate a bit?
Title: Re: Question about colored doped linen....
Post by: JoeDxMB on June 14, 2012, 12:40:55 PM
I asked the same question a while back on another site and someone was good enough to post up pictures that showed that the inside remained a light CDL colour even after the outside was coated with PC10 colour, presumably as a result of the linen being sealed / shrunk first.


OK.. that is what I suspected in my OP.
Thanks .  :)

In any event, I guess  it's like a lot of things in WW1 aircraft........ there is more than one way  that would be historically accurate .
Title: Re: Question about colored doped linen....
Post by: lcarroll on June 14, 2012, 01:04:17 PM
I asked the same question a while back on another site and someone was good enough to post up pictures that showed that the inside remained a light CDL colour even after the outside was coated with PC10 colour, presumably as a result of the linen being sealed / shrunk first.


OK.. that is what I suspected in my OP.
Thanks .  :)

In any event, I guess  it's like a lot of things in WW1 aircraft........ there is more than one way  that would be historically accurate .

You've made a very profound and , IMHO, accurate statement. In my 50+ years of involvement in, albeit to varying degrees of participation,, WWI Aviation the only thing one can be sure of is.................were not sure!!  I really enjoy getting into the "weeds" on various questions and interpretations, and there usually is a correct answer. On the other hand, I never disregard anyone else's interpretation as history and the passage of time have a way of confusing the facts. Learn as much as you can but don't hesitate to apply informed interpretation of the available information; who can call you wrong?
Cheers,
Lance
Title: Re: Question about colored doped linen....
Post by: Ian from Doncaster on June 14, 2012, 05:41:00 PM
...... On the other hand, I never disregard anyone else's interpretation as history and the passage of time have a way of confusing the facts. Learn as much as you can but don't hesitate to apply informed interpretation of the available information; who can call you wrong?
Cheers,
Lance

This is precisely why I don't get too deeply involved with historical accuracy (not yet, still learning modelling techniques) as there is often perhaps more than one correct answer, or no proven correct answer.
Title: Re: Question about colored doped linen....
Post by: pepperman42 on June 14, 2012, 09:57:46 PM
 Those documenting "current" history should note this thread. In 30 yrs are modellers going to be asking "What was the colour of the .... on an F16?"

Steve
Title: Re: Question about colored doped linen....
Post by: Whiteknuckles on June 14, 2012, 10:41:18 PM
Those documenting "current" history should note this thread. In 30 yrs are modellers going to be asking "What was the colour of the .... on an F16?"

Steve

At the rate the JSF is going, F16 variants will still be flying 30 years from now ::) :o

Andrew
Title: Re: Question about colored doped linen....
Post by: IanB on June 14, 2012, 10:56:24 PM
Take a look on the Vintage Aviator site:
http://thevintageaviator.co.nz/projects/re8-reproduction/vintage-aviator-re8

There are some good shots of the RE8 showing both the exterior PC10 and interior, almost white linen, in the same shot.

Ian
Title: Re: Question about colored doped linen....
Post by: ALBATROS1234 on June 16, 2012, 01:36:17 PM
i would think that even if a craft was just doped linen that the interior would be a couple shades lighter. the dope as i understand doesnt completely soak thru the fabric so on the outside it would be a more yellowy cream color due to the dope which is like a varnish and the interior almost white. same on a pc-10 craft it seems like the photos ive seen of original a/c as well as replica the interior linen is usually very light.which to me makes sense.
Title: Re: Question about colored doped linen....
Post by: Ian from Doncaster on June 16, 2012, 05:46:21 PM
Does this mean that aircraft primarily painted in PC10 were doped first, to tighten and seal the fabric, before adding the top colour?  That is what I thought but have never been sure.
Title: Re: Question about colored doped linen....
Post by: Jim52 on June 16, 2012, 10:33:52 PM
Ian,
     I think that that is correct. Dope to shrink the fabric and then color coats. However,
I seem to recall a post by DSA on the 'Drome stating that there was varnish between the
Dope and the color coats. The Varnish was used to actually seal the fabric. I very well
may be mistaken, though.

Jim
Title: Re: Question about colored doped linen....
Post by: JoeDxMB on June 17, 2012, 01:41:50 AM
I just thought of something.....
Can we assume  that clear dope was applied at the factory to all aircraft and the individual squadron markings/ colors were applied in the field?
Title: Re: Question about colored doped linen....
Post by: pepperman42 on June 17, 2012, 03:45:15 AM
In the field or definitely after the initial doping etc. Thats a good assumption and therefore yes the markings would possibly take on a slightly different tone/sheen/texture but in scale that, I suspect, would be minimal.

Steve
Title: Re: Question about colored doped linen....
Post by: kickstart on June 18, 2012, 06:28:53 PM
Hi all,

Plus three decades in the trade, many of those working on rag & pipe (Crop sprayers and classic aircraft) I can give you my experience.
Clear tautening dope followed by non tautening red oxide dope (Stop the fabric rotting) then silver dope (aluminum dope to reflect UV) topped with non-tautening coloured dope.

This would be for linen covered aircraft (Modern synthetics makes the process so much easier and a much better longevity, plus, as a whole, much lighter) and dependent of manufacturer, era etc. who would determine if the whole sequence would be used/not used.
The care that first clear-coats were put on is seen by the look inside……. If done really carefully, you would see CDL, if the next coat could bleed through the interstices …… red/pink the red lead, a metallic sheen the aluminum etc.

Unfortunately, never working on WWI era aircraft not sure on what they would have done. My opinion? Tautening dope followed by colour for the short life of the aircraft/covering with the gain in lightness as well as cheaper to produce.