forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com
WW1 Aircraft Modeling => Under Construction => Topic started by: Davos522 on June 26, 2023, 12:50:53 AM
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Hello All
I've always wanted to do a build log, and as this will be the first 1:32 kit I've started since the late 1960s it seems like the perfect excuse to start one. Besides, I'm hoping it might motivate me to actually finish this project.
I ordered the Amodel N.16 kit via EBay from the Plastic Model Store in Kiev, their price was around $37USD with free shipping here to the States. The same night I also ordered a sheet of Aviattic's clear linen effect decals; both arrived after an elapsed time of 17 days. Impressive, especially given conditions in the Ukraine... Artem from the PMStore actually included a hilarious little cartoon brochure explaining why service might have been slow (it wasn't) and the package might have shrapnel holes in it (it didn't).
I was surprised by the quality of the molding, having read some disparaging comments in different places. I've never owned a WnW kitset (missed the boat there during an extended hiatus from modeling) so I’m going by turn-of-the-century Eduard standards... it's a perfect kit for me, since I hack them to bits anyway and scratchbuild a lot of stuff. The Lewis guns (two duplicates are included) and Le Rhônes (2x, 80- and 120hp versions) look like they'd be perfectly usable with a little work, and all the main assemblies match up well against the drawings in the Nieuport Special Datafile. Not surprising, since they’re probably what Amodel worked from when designing the kit.
I didn't expect to get it for another week or so—the tracking info was predicting July 03—so I've been warming up by researching and carving some test Levasseur props (more on which in a day or two) and reading through the N.16 build logs here on the forum. Hoping to do a creditable job… if it comes out 33.3% as good as most of the work I've been seeing around here I'll be happy!
All best,
Dave V.
(https://i.postimg.cc/t1BJmFvP/DF3278-BF-CC97-4685-8-F39-A250-BE82-A4-C5.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/t1BJmFvP)
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I haven't seen a lot of builds of this kit. I am looking forward to following yours!
RAGIII
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Great choice.
I woudn't mind seeing a parts layout of this kit: I've built two of the Special Hobby N.11/16s and I wonder how different the A-Model kit is - if at all?
(The SH kits were a bit of a dog, so hopefully these are better.)
Sandy
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I‘ll follow with great interest. I also have some A-Model Nieuports and I also don’t think they look bad compared with the Special Hobby kits.
Andreas
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Thanks, gentlemen!
Rick: I started the N.11 from the Eduard double Cigones kit a couple of years ago, but really wanted to do a larger version, and thought about either the Amodel or Special Hobby 1:32 kit back then. And just BTW, are you the Rick G. from the WWI List? I was Dave No. 11 or 12, somewhere between Calhoun and Zulis...
Sandy: I've got your Ball SH build log bookmarked, and have been poring over it for the past couple of weeks. And RE: the parts layout, you caught me just in time, I cut the first two parts off the sprues just this morning, so I was still able to get a shot of everything still on the trees (save for the two halves of the N.11 cowl, which explains why they're glued together somewhere in the bottom R). And likewise BTW, I'm sure you won't remember, but we swapped more than one email when you were on the aforementioned WW1MML back in the late '90s and early 2000s. You still living down the street from Morrison's Academy?
Andreas: Vielen Dank! I'm looking forward to trying my hand at 1:32. Except for helping my Number One Son with a Hobbycraft N.17 about 25 years ago I haven't built in that scale since the late 1960s. Wish me luck!
All best,
Dave V.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jDn4m1wZ/2-D76-A053-2-B60-48-F5-A2-A1-364405-CE6-DA5.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/jDn4m1wZ)
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And likewise BTW, I'm sure you won't remember, but we swapped more than one email when you were on the aforementioned WW1MML back in the late '90s and early 2000s. You still living down the street from Morrison's Academy? (https://postimg.cc/jDn4m1wZ)
Hey Dave, I didn't recognize the moniker, great to 'hear' from you again. Small world isn't it?
I sold the Victorian pile opposite Morrison's Academy (see below) when the offspring all moved out and got married/had babies. In a much more manageable modern house now. I loved the big old family house when it was full of kids but I certainly don't miss the 1850s leaking roofs, windows, drains, oil-fired heating etc!
Thanks for the parts layout - I think this is probably a better kit than the SH one. Looking forward to seeing your results
Cheers Sandy
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Sandy
What a beautiful old place... but having grown up in an 1850 house here in New England, and having moved to another 1850 house seven miles down the road when I got married ten years ago, I know exactly what you mean. I often find myself longing for a place where everything is plumb and level and hasn't been chewed on by mice for the past hundred and fifty years :-P
Dave
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!00%! My house is a mere child built in 1910 with horse hair plaster and lath, funky wiring replacement and floors that allow a marble to roll around for 2 minutes. My reply to people saying "Oooo they don't build them like they used to!" is "Thank Gawd for that!" Looking forward to your build.
Steve
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(https://i.postimg.cc/vZ32gFQF/2-D76-A053-2-B60-48-F5-A2-A1-364405-CE6-DA5.jpg)
Thanks for the Sprue shot.When your image took Me to the Post Images site, I clicked on "Share" went to Hotlinks for Forums,, copied then pasted here. Remove everything outside of the [img] brackets on both ends. IHTH
RAGIII
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Thanks very much, Rick, I've been trying to look up the difference between the "Thumbnail" and "Hotlink" BBB code, which is kind of sad since twenty years ago I was a lead web designer at GE Plastics. How fallen are the mighty... nowadays the average elementary-school kid knows more about working with the Internet than I do :-P
Dave V
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And Steve, that's it exactly. Having put in a lot of years as a tradesman (painting, carpentry, and cabinetmaking) I'd love to live in a house where the furnace doesn't look like it came out of the USS San Pueblo... "Stim live... Stim dead!"
I'm having a lot of fun with this build so far, I got some very helpful information from a couple of outside sources RE: props and am going to do a post on my progress so far either tonight or tomorrow.
Dave V.
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Thanks very much, Rick, I've been trying to look up the difference between the "Thumbnail" and "Hotlink" BBB code, which is kind of sad since twenty years ago I was a lead web designer at GE Plastics. How fallen are the mighty... nowadays the average elementary-school kid knows more about working with the Internet than I do :-P
Dave V
I know what you mean. At 70 My 7 year old Grandson is more tech savvy than Me. So like I said when you go to the comment or reply section just paste and remove the stuff outside of the brackets. Glad I could Help.
RAGIII
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One of the main reasons I joined this forum was to learn new things… and it appears I'm off to a great start. First of all, I learned that everything I thought I knew about French propellers was wrong, thanks in part to a reply PrezmoL made to a comment of mine on his Caudron build log RE: the fact that they were painted. That sent me back to look at my two dozen or so period photo references on the Levasseur props for the Nieuport 16, including this one, which is from the actual aircraft I'm modeling:
(https://i.postimg.cc/26WHfFjP/D2-A65-ED3-01-B9-4-CFB-9-DB5-F09-E8-DF84-ED5.jpg)
I'd been assuming it was simply a clear-varnished walnut prop (hence the dark finish), but then, researching further, found that the Levasseur props were actually mahogany, as can be clearly seen in this modern photo of one which was sold on the Plane Pieces Ltd (www.aviationart.com) site some time ago:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fyh8WtJk/A8-B7-CCA8-3785-4765-BC28-23-EBB1-BDBCE1.jpg)
(photo used by permission)
Searching further, I posted a request for info on a wooden prop forum, and got a pair of answers in short order, one from David, the admin, who's collected antique propellers for years, and a second from Pierre-Michel, a gentleman who's regarded as perhaps the authority on early French propellers. After sorting out a slight misunderstanding about terminology, they agreed on the following: all French props passed by Aéronautique Militaire inspectors after 1915, and before some point in late 1918 were indeed "painted", but, not with paint per se… rather, with shellac containing an iron oxide pigment.
As an artist I've worked with synthetic iron oxide oil paints for about fifty years, all the red "earth" colors produced since the late 19th century contain it—Burnt Sienna, English Red, Indian Red, Venetian Red, and so on. Mixed with shellac it would make a semi-opaque varnish that will conceal the grain, but which might not cover 100% of the laminations… and I'm going to have fun experimenting with it. It would also explain the dark finish on all the Great War photos that I took to be walnut stain, the red-brown would render as near-black on orthochromatic film.
Of course, it basically makes all the test props I've carved over the past three weeks obsolete. I've done four so far, gradually dialing in the distinctive Levasseur shape with the near-straight leading edge and curved back edge: 1) is a blank of solid Honduran mahogany; 2) is a laminated blank of cocobolo (too red); 3) is solid mahogany (or was, until the cat knocked it off the table and I stepped on it, good color and scale grain; 4&5) are solid black walnut (wrong color, and way out-of-scale grain); and 6) is a blank in laminated Macassar ebony, which would have been a dead-ringer for walnut in 1:32, even the grain was in scale. Hellishly difficult stuff to carve, though.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BZxhYgVF/18-C537-B5-9-FEB-42-B6-8514-9-B12489805-A9.jpg)
So now we're back to solid mahogany, although I may get some 1/16" mahogany veneer and fool around with that next weekend.
Per ardua ad astra,
Dave V.
(Rick, I hope I posted the photos correctly this time. What's that saying about old dogs...?)
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The Photos look fine as do your prop ezperiments. I look forward to the final outcome!
RAGIII
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all French props passed by Aéronautique Militaire inspectors after 1915, and before some point in late 1918 were indeed "painted", but, not with paint per se… rather, with shellac containing an iron oxide pigment.
THAT is very interesting, thanks for sharing this information.
And a great start at carving wooden props! I for myself tend to take some darker and some lighter pieces of veneer and glueing them together. I never was so deep in selecting shades :)
Andreas
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Thanks, Andreas, I got permission to quote both gentlemen tonight, so I’ll post some of what they wrote tomorrow.
I’m still thinking of these as “practice props”, since I’m trying to teach myself propeller anatomy—how they’re made and what their actual shape is. It turns out that, again, it’s somewhat different than I’ve always thought. I’m slowly making progress, though, tonight’s effort is the most accurate yet in terms of being recognizable as a Levasseur. I still need to really study the hub area, that sort of got away from me on this one.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1XmS1KgJ/88-BB3-D9-A-0-A25-4594-9-FEA-8-D40167-AE376.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/MZ5xbg44/1-F5-F99-C4-B3-E4-43-E5-A520-FC140-E1-F8-C5-B.jpg)
All best,
Dave V.
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Wow Dave! Your practice is paying dividends already! Once stained your results will be awesome! By the way you are already far and away from where I would have called it good enough 8)
RAGIII
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Thanks for sharing all that info on French props. Your prop experiments are very interesting.
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Looking good!
/Fredrik
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No progress on the props, I spent last night starting a 3-view drawing to begin the long process of figuring out the color scheme, sorting through forty years of sometimes conflicting info. But again, as with the props, I was lucky to gain the support of another extremely knowledgable French source so I have great hopes for that sub-project.
Back to the props, this is in part what Pierre-Michel wrote on the propeller forum:
"Sorry, but if you think "painted" as using paint to cover the prop, there is no airworthy French prop "painted" between 1912 and 1920.
I don't know about prop before 1912, but after:
- until 1915, airworthy props (that is, stamped with EMA then SFA by a military controler) were covered with a transparent varnish, showing the wood grain,
- from an exact date I don't know in 1915, all the airworthy props (that is showing the SFA (or A navy stamp)) were covered with a shellac varnish containing ferrous oxyde dye. Those props are red to red-brown and generally the wood grain is no more visible...
Levasseur used a relatively dark red-brown."
Many thanks to both Pierre-Michel and David, the owner of the forum, who at one point owned this section of a Levasseur propeller with the decal, showing the shellac finish as being just that, semi-transparent deep red-brown.
(https://i.postimg.cc/R0VtVQh0/05-C861-DD-36-FE-4-A14-8551-AEAC25992676.jpg)
(photo reposted by permission of David Bahnson)
Onward and upward,
Dave V.
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Very informative Davos! Thank you. Wonderful work on your carved props as well.
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Thanks, Tim, the historical detective work is half the fun as far as I’m concerned!
D.V.
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Thank you for all this very interesting information about French propellers Dave.
And you are a fast learner when it comes to Carving!
Willem
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Hallo en bedankt, Willem! My family name is Vosburgh, and we were originally from the Netherlands... 370 years ago, anyway :-)
No carving last night, but I did begin to play with finishes, using a copal varnish with Burnt Sienna oil paint mixed in—a color made from synthetic iron oxide, the same pigment mixed with the shellac that Pierre-Michel was talking about on the propeller forum:
(https://i.postimg.cc/7LLWg2sj/25-F89-C6-D-4-FCB-4-D09-AD6-F-E8-FA6-A159-A83.jpg)
The color is way too saturated at this point, but I'll tone it down with some green and try to get it to match the Levasseur dark red-brown in subsequent attempts.
Cheers,
Dave V.
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Nice color achieved with the Burnt Sienna. Are you going with that or will you be trying Burnt Umber, or even a burnt sienna / Burnt umber mix 8)
RAGIII
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Rick
Yeah, I'll knock it down with something like that, I need to lower the chroma & value, and increase the opacity all at the same time... but fortunately I have a growing collection of rejected props to test out finishes on (which was all part of my evil plan, actually). I gotta admit, though, I love that brilliant color, even though it's nothing like what I'll ultimately end up using!
D.V.
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Imitation Levasseur tinted shellac mix No. 2. Again, this is one coat of a copal varnish painting medium, which dries to a very hard finish, tinted with red-orange Burnt Sienna oil paint mixed with a brush-tip of its complement (blue-green Viridian, in this case) to drop the hue back towards brown. Too far, I think, I need to bring the red back up, which I can do by glazing over it after it dries.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1RY3JMMT/2-DA8-EE22-B400-4-E90-9-A9-A-F6-B1318-FAB31.jpg)
It's also too transparent at this point, but I'll be doing multiple coats, so there's a certain amount of leeway for adjusting the color, opacity, and gloss... if any of you have ever done woodworking and have experience working with shellac finishes, you know that you cut the first couple of coats with alcohol to allow it to "bite" into the woodgrain, then apply as many more coats as you need to achieve the desired finish, scuffing it off between coats with fine sandpaper or steel wool. I'm assuming that's the way the real props were done as well.
(https://i.postimg.cc/h4k9Jmh7/06044-A2-D-3019-4-B62-A1-D7-F7-C2300-CE5-B7.jpg)
Dave V.
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I learned a few things here!! Great prop research and Rick showed me how to use the postimage site you use. I think I actually understand it! I have ordered from PM and have received the pamphlet you mention. Something got lost in the translation for the little character......
Steve
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Steve, yes, I'm loving all this information. I've known historians and researchers who jealously guard their findings, and live in fear of somebody "stealing their work"... but fortunately for us most of the folks in the field of aviation history--like Pierre-Michel and Dave Bahnson--are eager to share the things they've learned.
Long may they run.
D.V.
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Hallo en bedankt, Willem! My family name is Vosburgh, and we were originally from the Netherlands... 370 years ago, anyway :-)
Graag gedaan Dave :)
Zo te zien houden jullie na 370 jaar de Nederlandse taal nog steeds levend!
Groet,
Willem
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Willem, I wish I knew more Dutch, but I really only know a few words... everyone I met in Holland spoke better English than I do, so I hardly got to use what little I know. One of my fondest wishes is to be able to learn to pronounce "Scheveningen" correctly someday. I managed to get it right one night in a bar in Amsterdam, but that was because of the Amstel and I haven't been able to repeat it since...
Up to seven props now, the Amodel kit prop is at the top, and my latest work-in-progress is at the bottom. The latter is only rough-shaped now, the hub is oversize as well as the big squared-off paddle-shaped blades, which I'll refine by more sanding. But I think I may be able to turn out a usable prop pretty soon. I have to get my drill-press running so I can work on drilling out the hub... not sure what I'm going to do about the hub plate, I'd like to order one of the correct French versions from Proper Planes but am hesitant about having to wait until next February for it.
Dave V.
(https://i.postimg.cc/15XF7Gnp/8-AB2-C090-B132-44-CB-BF57-3-FBC4-B16-AB93.jpg)
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Dave,
I have had reasonable success by cutting the hub from the Kit prop with a standard hobby "razor" saw and then sanding it down to the desired thickness and carefully drilling out the lightening holes already molded on it. There used to be Photo Etched after market products available but I like this little resource for the purpose as the bolt heads are already on the Kit version. Below the results on a Wingnut Wings LVG C.VI.
(https://i.imgur.com/MzCHh3K.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/sOcqUqH.jpg)
Cheers,
Lance
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Thanks, Lance, that's an idea I hadn't thought of. I actually tried casting the hub off a thirty year old Hobbycraft N.17 my son built back in the day, and which has now gone into the spares box. It was actually quite well-done, but the finish on my copies was too rough and I abandoned that idea. But in case he ever decides to rebuild it I don't want to cut the hub off... unfortunately those on the Amodel props are unusable, the detail is rudimentary and in addition the one on their Levasseur is marred by a sink-mark in the exact center. I emailed Alexey this morning to see whether the French hubs are something that he has in stock at Proper Planes, since I'm also going to need turnbuckles also.
And those LVG props are stunning! If mine comes out half as good I'll be a happy cat.
D.V.
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Back from a weekend in the wilds of Maine, and picking up on the Nieuport project. I'd thought about trying to scratchbuild one of the hideously complicated French prop hubs, but after a couple of abortive attempts I realized it was beyond my skillset and decided to order one from Alex at Proper Plane in Kiev, along with a couple of sets of turnbuckles.
(https://i.postimg.cc/LsQTGCwG/B4-C38-F34-9-EBF-4-BE1-9-F64-F73-CA2477-F99.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/W1vTJSWR/93-F29-A96-7295-49-CA-B2-B5-67-B9198-AE3-F4.jpg)
I was also able to work a bit on my profile, which I'm doing to figure out the color scheme. It's mostly at the grayscale pencil stage at the moment, needs a lot of research and even more work :-P
(https://i.postimg.cc/gkwnKMHn/116-CB06-F-364-D-47-AE-91-E1-D6-D3690-C674-F.jpg)
Onward, through night and fog...
Dave V.
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Dave this is some incredibly thorough work and you seem to be having great fun doing it too. Your prop carving is excellent and I would have been more than happy with the second one from the bottom. Your next, I feel confident, will be absolutely perfect.
Using the aftermarket prop boss is a good choice. The proper plane ones are excellent and having spent far too much of my life scratching one in 1/32 I can honestly say it was more work than it was worth. Especially as the alignment is far from perfect!
Richie
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Thanks, Richie, I like to scratchbuild things when I can, but fabricating 5-6mm turnbuckles and hub plates is a bit much!
I'm loving your BE, and Project White Bird is an absolutely thrilling idea!
DV
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Your props are improving with each new version although like Richie I would accept a few of them 8) I think going with Proper Plane Hubs and buckles is a good decision!
RAGIII
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I have just read through this thread. Wow, if you are going to be so meticulous on the rest of this build as much as you are on the propeller, it will be a marvel. Anyway, I will be watching it with great interest.
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Thanks, Rick, in addition to avoiding a potentially project-killing nightmare, I decided the better part of valor was to just buy 'em. And besides, Alex seems like a nice guy, and it's nice to feel like I'm supporting the hobby... especially given the current conditions in Kyiv.
Prez, mae govannen, mellon. As I said before, if my effort is 33% as beautiful as the work you folks do, I'll feel like I really accomplished something.
Dave V.
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More work on the props, the upper one is the one I'm using to develop a finish that approximates the pigmented shellac (still too red, working on the color), while the bottom represents my best attempt to date at capturing those sexy Levasseur curves. The bottom prop isn't tinted yet; before applying the copal varnish I'm filling the grain in the mahogany with the old woodworker's trick of applying a drying oil (Watco Danish, in this case) with 500-grit sanding film. The extremely fine wood-dust gets incorporated into the oil, and after it dries you repeat the process as many times as necessary to fill up the open grain and leave a smooth surface for the varnish.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4xpDP918/D7-C9-BAC9-2731-4-F42-861-E-6-E53-CFD965-E5.jpg)
I'm also working on the profile, and looking for photos of the Esc. N.37 chasseur I plan on building on the website of the Musée de l'Armée Invalides in Paris. Having only seen it in black and white it's tremendous fun to see what the little bird might have looked like 107 years ago... the colors and camouflage pattern are strictly provisional at the moment, much research still to do on that front.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3x06RD68/6-E950-F6-E-912-D-46-EB-A932-D9-FE6-A1051-DA.jpg)
DV
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Looking good so far! But if you get so deep into propeller wood colors, one of the even more crucial question should be: Are you a two tone or a four tone camouflage guy? :D
Andreas
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Ha! I'll not fall into that trap, Andreas! :-D It's really way too early in my project to have any kind of definite opinion... I've been reading Xan's thread on 2-3-4 color camouflage schemes on the 1914.forumactif.com and at the moment, after adjusting the light levels and studying this photo of 986 (the Esc. N.37 aircraft I'm building), it SEEMS to show at least three colors:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Gt2wSKxP/4-B3-F9830-E707-4640-9-A9-A-EF577-D904-C5-A.jpg)
Asthetically I'd like three colors, since it appeals to me as an artist. I loved your build of 871 on the French forum for that very reason, what a gorgeous model! I wish I could get a copy of the Klaeylé/Chassard book and see if it has anything about the series "my" a/c is in.
Long way to go before I have to worry about paint, though!
Dave V.
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I would tend to agree about "At Least" three colors 8)
RAGIII
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I would tend to agree about "At Least" three colors 8)
RAGIII
I‘m in here!
I've been reading Xan's thread on 2-3-4 color camouflage schemes on the 1914.forumactif.com
Then you‘re well informed. I have the book and can look for 986, if you like!
Andreas
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Thanks, Rick! I know it's a subject that causes a lot of debate, and in the end you have to inform yourself about the different options and go with the one you feel is most likely.. or at least looks right.
And yes, please, Andreas. That would be very helpful. Everything is guesswork at this point RE: the colors. I'm thinking the undersides were clear-doped, or light blue, and the outline tapes on wings and horizontal stab/elevators were bleu horizon... but as I said, my research on colors is going to be yet another sub-project of its own.
I see there was a thread some years ago where Xan weighed in on colors, but when I tried to access it I got an error message saying it had been deleted.
DV
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That's a very attractive scheme, I'm excited to see it on the model! It's also interesting to see your experiments to replicate the shellac finish. Very informative.
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Looks good so far! I used to make profiles with my kids, I drew the (inaccurate :D) outlines from my memory and my kids would colour them up to my liking :)
I must admit on your photo's I can see only 2 colours. Fortunately we can all do as we like :)
I have a Special Hobby Nie16 on the go, but my resin engine was incomplete (it was a gifted "rescue me" model that was partially started) and along with my Lukgraph Albatros I ordered a 3D printed LeRhone so hopefully I can update my build later on -yours is a great inspiration!
Jeroen
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Thanks, Zac! I'm having a lot of fun with this project so far, and made great progress yesterday on replicating the Levasseur dark red/brown.
And Jeroen, I used to do the same thing with my kids! And I find it's interesting you should make that observation about the two colors, as it validates one of the theories about the early Nieuport schemes. It's possibile that the dark green and brown were so close in value—the relative lightness/darkness of the color, unrelated to its hue or chroma—that they photographed as one tone on the old orthochromatic film, thus making it look like the scheme was only made up of two colors. So I carefully adjusted the value on my dark green and brown accordingly to see how it would look, then desaturated it to check:
(https://i.postimg.cc/13vSXD3R/4-CBF44-A1-0-B20-4754-9617-A60-CA84-E311-D.jpg)
If you look closely on the colored profile, the rear fuselage is actually two colors, my vert foncée under and just ahead of the horizontal stabilizer (the area bisected by the diagonal shadow), and the brown forward of that. When you remove the chroma, or "saturation", it's practically impossible to tell that there's any difference in the dark area at all.
There's other variables that could have affected the old photos, of course, the red/blue sensitivity of the film emulsion being one of them. I'm playing with a method of adjusting the Curves tool in Photoshop to compensate for that too, just out of curiosity...
Dave V.
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Really interesting work you are doing! Still one wonders if we can ever be really sure ::)
RAGIII
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Nope, Rick, not unless somebody invents a time machine...
(https://i.postimg.cc/1z5dsgF1/2-A4-DE8-C3-BE91-4-DDA-9-EBB-8-F2-A58-DD2-AB8.jpg)
DV
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Dave,
Here is a autochrome photo of a Nieuport 11, N.940 flown by Jean Chaput. It shows the 4 colors quite well. A good book with profiles of these 4 colors on Ni-11 and Ni-16 aircraft is "Nieuport Flyers of the Lafayette" by Jon Guttman.
Not sure if you knew of these sources but I thought I'd mention them.
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There's other variables that could have affected the old photos, of course, the red/blue sensitivity of the film emulsion being one of them
There used to be some open source photoshop filters that would take a color input and output various b&w emulsions: ortho, pan-x, tri-x, etc.
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What we need is DSA and his Magic Copying Machine that read Grey Scale perfectly!
RAGIII
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Dave,
Here is a autochrome photo of a Nieuport 11, N.940 flown by Jean Chaput. It shows the 4 colors quite well. A good book with profiles of these 4 colors on Ni-11 and Ni-16 aircraft is "Nieuport Flyers of the Lafayette" by Jon Guttman.
Not sure if you knew of these sources but I thought I'd mention them.
Hm, this famous photo in fact shows only three camouflage colors ;)
Andreas
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Some progress on props, although I ran out of the wood I was using and spent part of yesterday pawing through the billets I inherited from a wood-turner friend some years back. I'd thought the stuff I was using was Honduran mahogany, which I have about twelve pounds of, but then realized it was nothing of the kind... it might be quarter-sawn cherry, or Swiss pear. I found some straight-sawn cherry that should serve, though. The battle continues.
RE: the colors:
- Big Sky, thanks for bringing that photo up! I had seen it, and studied it closely. The original was found by Marc Chassard in 1999, and shows Jean Chaput's machine 940 of Esc. N.57. But in a lot of ways it raises more questions than it answers... and so we fall down the rabbit hole of the Great Nieuport Camo Debate :-) The problem with most of the versions on the web is that they seem to have been zapped in Photoshop with the "Saturation" tool. As near as I can figure out the original autochrome was much less colorful, as in this copy from Albin Denis's monumental Escadrille site:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Dy5yPVFG/0510-BEAB-B1-CE-4-B5-F-8428-FD099-FF8-A248.jpg)
Marc Chassard, who was also a co-author of a book on early Nieuport doping schemes, decided after much study that that red-brown on the front of the machine was in fact simply the varnished "cheeks", the side pieces made up of diagonal laminations of mahogany veneer. And it does seem a suspiciously close color match, as seen in this photo of the Belgian N.17 undergoing restoration:
(https://i.postimg.cc/PxkPFm7v/8-EFDF179-7-C2-B-423-F-AF4-D-F50-ECD5-AAA73.jpg)
This whole question was addressed by Xan in a wonderful post titled "Camouflage Francais Deux Tons (3? 4?)" on the French 1914.forumactif.com forum back in 2018, where he laid out his reasons for going with a simple two-tone green/brown scheme. But there are valid reasons for going with three, or even four, as others have pointed out (including Andreas, replying on the same forum).
I know I'm probably re-hashing stuff that a lot of you are already familiar with (and are probably sick of reading!) but I'm trying to document my reasoning for the choices I'm making as I go along.
- Uncle, likewise thanks! I wasn't aware of the plug-in, I'll do a search for it. I'm altogether too prone to trying to re-invent the wheel.
- Rick, I had a lot of respect for Dan-San, but he sure did have his opinions! I had an exchange with Ray Rimmell a couple of years ago where he referred to his arguments with DSA with some humor, and obvious fondness in spite of the latter's curmudgeonly ways.
- Andreas, I especially liked your comment to Xan on the 1914 forum RE: the argument that the photo of the Nieuport factory only showed two spray-guns, therefore only two colors. And your 3-color Special Hobby N.11 was a work of art, and I'm seriously considering using it as inspiration for this project.
Thanks all, and sorry if I'm rambling!
DV
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This is really great research Dave! Perhaps when you finish we will have a New Mold CSM kit to use your results on :D
RAGIII
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Yes! I saw Mike's post earlier... well, at least I'll have a bunch of props to go with it. I'm up to nine so far :-P
But I think I've got that particular problem licked, they're actually starting to look like Levasseurs now. Probably be moving on to a seat, or maybe the Lewis & mount next.
DV
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Beautiful work on the props.
As far as the cammo pattern goes, I tend to prefer the two tone or possibly three. Can’t get used to seeing four tone on these birds. I guess I’m just conditioned from all the past line of thinking.
All the best,
Tim
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I tend to agree at this point, Tim, three colors looks best to me, although which three I haven't decided. I'm doing my profile digitally (in Procreate on my iPad), which allows you to play with the colors by isolating each of them on a separate layer, which can then be adjusted with the Color Balance sliders:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Vvjkm5L9/F5-EAD09-C-C46-A-441-E-8537-55-B2-DDE95-F5-D.jpg)
It's still a Work In Progress, besides the camo there's much detail to figure out and add; gun mount, wires, and did the port side of the rudder have stencil data on it? No photos I've been able to find show that side... the starboard didn't, but I've read that often it was one side only.
The Battle of the Props rages on unabated, I think I'm up to ten now. But I've carried it nearly as far as I can, the lightest one on the bottom is yesterday's effort, and while it still needs some refining it looks about as much like a Levasseur No.484 as my current skillset will allow (shape-wise, anyway):
(https://i.postimg.cc/QCzNQPxt/E839-D96-E-0-B0-B-44-E9-8-C73-9-EF69287-B11-D.jpg)
There's still the colored shellac finish to dial in, and I'm waiting for the prop hubs to arrive. Time to move on, I've been working on this project for over a month, and have yet to touch the plastic :-P
Dave V.
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Lol. Dave with my current skill set you could pull any one the four props out and tell me it’s correct. They all look great.
What a neat program you are using for the profiles. I’m tending towards the first one if it were my choice.
All the best,
Tim
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Yeah, me too, Tim; dark brown, dark green, and a lighter green. But there's still a lot of research to do on it. And at this rate it'll be sometime next year that I actually get around to having to worry about paint :-P
DV
(https://i.postimg.cc/MZyDYRS5/5-C1-ED7-FB-175-C-4034-8-E81-AFF182456413.jpg)
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Lovely Artwork and Very believable considering what we have to go on!
RAGIII
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Thanks, Rick!
DV
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I really like that paint scheme. Much better than the silver ones.
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Took a break from prop & profile last night to actually do something with the kit, and got an immediate wake-up as to how much of a challenge this project is going to be:
(https://i.postimg.cc/L8fbxWhC/54-FC09-A3-252-E-4-EE1-AA39-BA6-BFAD95-E19.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/bwp2DDX6/425-C4-F15-BD5-E-4961-BF98-454-ED7962798.jpg)
What exactly is going on with that firewall, one wonders? At first I thought it just butted up flush against the front of the fuselage, then I noticed a slight lip on the rear, so I refined it and tried insetting it, but it didn't fit that way either. But, fortunately, like I said at the beginning of this log I always end up hacking half the kit parts up and scratching my own anyway.
Fit problems aside, it has a definitely Bébé-ish look to it.
Dave V.
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Quit swapping parts with other kits!! :o
Steve
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Maybe the Special Hobby kits weren't so bad after all!
Sandy
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The fit does look a bit on the rough side :o My guess is that the bottom forward section of the Fuselage and Firewall will be replaced ;D
RAGIII
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Steve - Yup. I kept thinking "Did I take the wrong parts off the tree? This has gotta be the firewall..."
Sandy - As somebody who, like most of us, built a number of the old first-gen Eduard kits (and the Glencoe Oeffag Albatros!) I wasn't too horrified. This kit is better than, say, the 1:72 Merlin DH.10, which is my gold standard for Awfulness... once in a while I take those parts out of the box and just shudder.
Rick - What I really wanted to do last night was glue the two halves of the N.16 cowl together, but then, thinking that fit was an unknown quantity, decided to mock up the fuselage with low-tack tape. And boy am I glad I did, the N.11 cowl I'd glued up didn't even come close to fitting.
But as my best friend used to tell me about the collision repair business "If this stuff was easy, Dutch, everybody'd be doing it..."
DV
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Spent an hour last night with files and an emery board, and finally got the fit kinda-sorta under control. The secret? Just leave out the firewall! :-D
(https://i.postimg.cc/y8ZnBqGM/5626-DE89-60-E0-4450-911-D-474-FA616339-F.jpg)
There was no working with that floor of the cockpit/nose, so I made a heavy paper template for an eventual replacement in wood, or styrene, or something.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rm3C7QJV/D8-BA5441-2-E76-40-F8-B6-A7-FA17-E272-DA1-E.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Onward and upward.
Dave V.
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I've been breaking up work on the props and profile by starting my next sub-project, developing a drawing for the 3mm plywood Nieuport seat back, based on the best photo I've been able to find (from what appears to be a crashed N.17bis or 24) along with about twenty or thirty other photos, many of the Belgian N.23 under restoration.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Px5DFWxM/D2-B77-CE0-1350-482-E-A146-F3-EFA1-C864-C0.jpg)
I'm working 7x bigger, and while it may not be technically accurate, I think when it gets reduced back down to 1:32 it's going to look OK... the biggest problem has been figuring out how they laid out those holes (49 of them, by my count). At first I did it strictly by mechanical measurement, but that didn't work at all; the result lacked all the elegance of the original. Then I realized that was the key—being French it would be designed with an eye towards aesthetics as well as engineering and functionality—and rearranged everything so it looked good.
(https://i.postimg.cc/WzV859Kf/C0-A439-EA-530-C-4714-AFC2-8-FA04-EDCF012.jpg)
I'll redraw that one, reduce it back down on the copier, and use it as a template to start drilling out a blank cut from that piece of 1/32" basswood model ship decking. My theory is that the scored back will allow me to bend it more easily (after it gets hit with steam) to wrap around the seat bottom, while the "planks" won't be visible from the front.
Dave V.
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Interesting process. A plastic seat back with wood grain paint effect easier?
Steve
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You are amazing in your search for detail and methods used to carry them out.
Knowing how thorough you are in the research I imagine you have seen this one but figured I would share just in case.
RAGIII
(https://i.postimg.cc/fWFmqLB2/n11pit.jpg)
Not sure if an 11 or 16 8)
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oooo. That one's very different from yours Dave. Must have changed them on the 17 and up.
Steve
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Hi Steve and Rick, and thanks for the input! You may have saved me from a bunch of wasted time. I was basing my decision to go with the taller seat on several photos I assumed showed an N.16, of which these two are among the clearest:
(https://i.postimg.cc/NjcmBZDN/03-E0-B2-B4-A5-C6-4781-B9-BA-29-BB94-EF0-DBC.jpg)
My reasons for believeing them to be a 16 were: a) the wedge-shaped top of the fuel tank like the N.11, I assumed all the 17s had the longer tank with the arched top, b) the fact that the motor was clearly a 110 hp Le Rhône 9J with rear-mounted pushrods and intake manifolds, c) the headrest on the upper photo, d) the center-mounted fuel and oil tank filler caps. But then I went back and looked closer...
The firewall on the 11/16, which had two lunette-shaped cutouts that let exhaust and burnt oil flow back and downwards through the aluminum "cheek pieces", appears to be solid—no cutouts—in the photos I was using. But the biggest clue was going back to the Windsock Datafile Nieuport Special, Vol. 1, where both those photos were clearly captioned as being N.17s.
Going back through my interior photo collection I can only find two that are unquestionably N.11/16s, and both show the shorter seat. And finally, I probably could've saved myself the trouble if I'd looked at the 1:48 Eduard N.11 I built back during the pandemic:
(https://i.postimg.cc/FKz6fK3T/64479097-19-A7-4830-8-F37-E18-F8-E7-FBFD0.jpg)
First rule of research: Check, check, and check again!
Thanks again guys.
Dave V.
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I am glad I was able to help. I remembered the photo because there was a discussion long ago about how the seat was mounted. Much easier than scratch building that Nie. 17 seat mount 8)
RAGIII
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Research is a fair amount of my fun in this hobby to be honest! It's neat to see your process.
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Thanks, Rick and Zac. I have to admit to being a little disappointed, as I was kind of looking forward to figuring out that nightmarish framework under the tall seat :-/
Masochist? Who, me??
Dave V.
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Dave, beautiful work on your project. I appreciate your attention to detail. Here is a link to my 1/24 Black Knight vaccuform build if it helps in any way. My build is not as focused on exact detail more a general representation. I cannot get individual pictures to post for some reason.
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/hyperscale/viewtopic.php?f=680747&t=518283&p=2763267&hilit=Nieuport#p2763267
Hop this helps,
Tim
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Thanks, Tim! I haven't had time to read through the whole thread, but I'm loving it so far, beautiful work! I'd never even heard of Black Knight before.
Back to the drawing board—or light table, as the case may be—RE: the "short seat". I collected all the pics I could last night and started redrawing a template at a little less than twice the final size. It took me a bit to figure out a logical arrangement for the holes, which, as is the case with the "tall seat", are arranged in diagonally staggered rows spaced to accomodate the radius of the seat back. I wish I could locate a contemporary picture taken from the front that clearly showed the pattern, but lacking that I think my in-process drawing at the very bottom of the yellow card-stock must be pretty close. If anyone has evidence to the contrary, please LMK!
(https://i.postimg.cc/t70vKk74/04-FFE5-E7-A0-FD-48-DF-9541-685450-D75-D70.jpg)
... and the real item...
(https://i.postimg.cc/yW4jWNm1/8-AC2-AE2-F-5-ED3-49-C3-903-E-760-D6913-DF5-B.jpg)
Dave V.
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Love it Dave, the seat pattern looks spot on to me. I love all the careful research that is going into this project. In the end I am sure this will all a long way towards a superb finished model.
Richie
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Thanks, Richie! I've actually made a lot of progress since last night, having abandoned my idea of making the seat out of the scribed basswood decking... not only did it crumble when I steamed and bent it, but I realized that in scale it would give me a seat back 1" thick (the original was 1/8" ply). So I got out some .010 styrene this morning and knocked out a Mk.I test seat in about forty-five minutes:
(https://i.postimg.cc/6qJMxSKq/D3-ADCEFF-8-B8-E-453-F-B5-EB-A64-DB7-E0621-B.jpg)
The holes are staggered unevenly (although it's difficult to tell once it gets wrapped around the base) and the radius of the back is a little ragged, but all in all I'm pretty happy with it. The Mk.II should be better still.
Dave V.
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Your test seat looks great but I'm sure Mk. II will be absolutely perfect. All done in 45 minutes too!
Richie
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Pretty cool Dave. I think you’re right about the styrene being more scale accurate. Looks great.
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Nice progress. Most times -I repeat MOST times- I find using plastic to replicate wood is better - There are those who achieve wonders with wood however.
Steve
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Nice progress on your seat, Dave - styrene is always my go-to in most cases.
Cheers,
Gary
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Thanks, Gary, Steve, Tim & Richie! I made some progress today, if only in realizing how far off the Mk II seat was from the real item. When I set it next to the Mk I from a day or two ago tonight it looked pretty good:
(https://i.postimg.cc/DwJ3xgQc/10132282-65-AB-42-CB-95-DF-B7-D062-C75-EDB.jpg)
... but when I compared it to the photos of the actual seat it became immediately apparent how far off the shape was:
(https://i.postimg.cc/NfF304nw/416-D6829-CA17-4-E83-8394-9-FEC1-FD6-F2-FD.jpg)
... I could also see that the half-round molding around the top and bottom was about twice as thick as the real one... I'd used a piece of styrene rod I found in my plastic bin, scraped down and stuck on with liquid cement. I'll probably go with stretched sprue next.
So, back to the drawing board... ah-gin, as Forrest Gump would say.
Dave V.
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I don't think you need to get too obsessed about the seat shape. Will it be viewed from the side when in finished model? Or just from above? Having some experience with scratchbuilding, I think it's better to complete a project rather than get discouraged to the point of abandoning it.
Just my 2 cents.
You're doing great work here!
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Lovely work, Dave ;)
Thanks for sharing.
Cheers,
Bob
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Thank you Bob, and thank you too, Ken! Obsessing over detail and the potential for burning out is always a very real concern, of course. But I'm enjoying documenting my progress here on this thread, which has been very motivational. On the old WWIMML it really wasn't possible to share your day-to-day work, and without the kind of feedback one gets here my projects tended to stall and languish. I take the view that each major component should be a model (or sub-project) in itself; the Levasseur prop, for example, has been through ten incarnations so far, each noticeably more accurate than the last, and I'm still not done with it. But doing the research, and striving for that kind of accuracy is half the fun for me!
Dave V.
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Just been looking through this thread and am very impressed by your extreme attention to detail. I agree with Ken that sometimes we can become too focused on minutiae when the details that we spend so much time over can rarely be seen. It is one of the reasons whay I made cut-away models for my large scale projects - then at least the parts can be seen.
However as the saying goes "it is your model" and you are the person who ultimately has to be satisfied.
Keep up the first class work.
Stephen.
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Like Many of the others I would have been good with the Mark I seat 8) I do admire your desire to get things correct! Looking forward to the next seat Iteration!
RAGIII
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Great work - well done! Impressive craftsmanship :)
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Thanks for the support, Stephen & Rick & Ben! I’m working on the Mk IV seat now, and while the radius of the "arms" is still a bit off I'm much happier with it overall when compared to the 1:1 seat:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MG34HMs4/43-DF41-D9-E85-A-4989-B105-BB3-DB2-F3-D908.jpg)
The sloppy edges on the bead molding on the top edge are actually unsanded white Tamiya Surface Primer to fill in a slight gap in a couple of places. One of the reasons I was unsatisfied with the earlier versions was that I couldn't get a even curve in the seat back, which I solved by immersing the flat blank in boiling water for about twenty seconds, bending it around an AA battery, and then running cold water over it to "set" the shape; no stress fractures this time (visible on top of the back of the Mk III seat, second from R) I'm also starting to play with colors and ply finishes on the previous attempts (Mk IV at R, unpainted):
(https://i.postimg.cc/d0qrzhn7/E85-F4-E8-D-E68-E-4-FC3-B017-6-B7583776-F4-F.jpg)
I guess I could move on to a Mk V, but we may have hit the point where the Law of Diminishing Returns kicks in. We'll see how the paint comes out on the current version. In the meantime I've been also working on the props—we're up to like a dozen now—and profile. Updates on those sub-projects soon.
Dave V.
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RE: my last post, it's been a while since I've worked on a model, and apparently I've forgotten one of the basic rules of the sort of semi-scratchbuilding I tend to do: To wit, don't spend time making anything until you know it's going to fit where you intend to put it.
When I started building the "box" that the short seat sits on last night, calculating the dimensions from the inside of the Amodel fuselage, it immediately became apparent that all my seats—Mks I thru IV—were 3-4 scale inches too wide to fit on the top of the box. I should have built the box first, then the seat... I'd based the width of the seats I was making on two sources, a) the 70-year old Bergen Hardesty plans of the N.17 that I'd saved from some 1960s-vintage model magazine (the old Scale Modeler IIRC), which showed the dimensions as roughly 17x18", and b) the seat from No 1 Son's Hobbycraft N.17 that was the first model he ever built on his own, back around the turn of the century. How different could the N.16 be, I figured?
But the good news is that I've made so many seats now I was able to knock the Mk V out in about a half-hour, which sits mocked up on the box with a basic un-cooked Super Sculpey cushion and a pair of plastic card brackets and looks... well, sort of okay at this point:
(https://i.postimg.cc/9fFTtbNF/EBE50-A35-8887-4-E7-E-B39-A-0816-A15203-B8.jpg)
It needs final shaping, filling, priming, paint, and all that good stuff (as well as the holes & pulleys for the control mechanism & cables, etc.) but I think I may be able to move on from here with a clear conscience, detail-wise. Anyone have any suggestions on French seat-belts?
I think I'll unwind by having a glass of rum and Rose's lime juice to celebrate the 225th anniversary of the Battle of the Nile. Down with Bonaparte!
Dave V.
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More work on the props, the upper one is the one I'm using to develop a finish that approximates the pigmented shellac (still too red, working on the color), while the bottom represents my best attempt to date at capturing those sexy Levasseur curves. The bottom prop isn't tinted yet; before applying the copal varnish I'm filling the grain in the mahogany with the old woodworker's trick of applying a drying oil (Watco Danish, in this case) with 500-grit sanding film. The extremely fine wood-dust gets incorporated into the oil, and after it dries you repeat the process as many times as necessary to fill up the open grain and leave a smooth surface for the varnish.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4xpDP918/D7-C9-BAC9-2731-4-F42-861-E-6-E53-CFD965-E5.jpg)
I'm also working on the profile, and looking for photos of the Esc. N.37 chasseur I plan on building on the website of the Musée de l'Armée Invalides in Paris. Having only seen it in black and white it's tremendous fun to see what the little bird might have looked like 107 years ago... the colors and camouflage pattern are strictly provisional at the moment, much research still to do on that front.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3x06RD68/6-E950-F6-E-912-D-46-EB-A932-D9-FE6-A1051-DA.jpg)
DV
Hi Davos
You can use thin super glue wiped on with a sponge as a grain filler. You'll have to work fast as the glue can set very fast on the sponge (watch out for the fumes that can come from the sponge when the glue dries as it can be acrid on the eyes and nose) You can even use this as a finish and it ccan be buffed and polished after fine sanding and it's very fast.
Cheers
Andrew
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Thanks, Andrew! I'll have to give that a try the next time I work with an open-grained wood, it'd be perfect for the walnut I was experimenting with when I started. The cherry and Swiss pear I'm using now has such a close grain that I don't really need to fill it, but that's a useful trick to add to my arsenal of sub-miniature cabinetry techniques!
Dave V.
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Bravo Dave, seat Mk.V looks fantastic. Your comment about making sure things fit made me wince and chuckle at the ame time. I spent a week making a wicker seat for my BE2 only to find there was no way it was going to fit.
Speaking of things nautical I visited the Greenwich Maritime Museum last week and saw Nelson's dress tunic and ceremonial sword amongst other things. There was an amazing painting of L'Orient exploding in the Battle of the Nile. If you ever visit London I think you would enjoy a visit.
The prop shape looks beautiful, all this care and attention is very inspiring to see.
Richie
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Thanks, Richie. I know I'd love to see the museum in Greenwich... as a huge fan of the O'Brian novels it's been a goal of mine to visit it (and go on board Victory in Portsmouth) for years. I'm also a member of a model ship forum, and fantasize about doing a plank-on-frame kit before I shuffle off this mortal coil.
But back to airplane stuff; I was excited to get my prop hubs from Alex at Proper Plane in Kyiv today, they're brilliant!
(https://i.postimg.cc/PJN5Y6x9/78-BA5-E76-8-C93-45-D3-8-E5-D-15-CA4-A9-D2013.jpg)
No way I could have scratched them. And RE: the seats for the BE, I feel for you... at least I didn't have to weave mine, just drill out some styrene card!
D.V
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Haha, I'm up to The Fortune of War in the O'Brian novels and have been dreaming about making a plank on frame ship model too! That's a discussion to be had elsewhere though, sorry for the thread drift.
The Proper Plane propeller boss is superb. Definitely the right decision to buy the part. Trying to scratch that would have been a horrible experience.
Richie
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Greetings
May I ask you to check the top wing for me? 11/16 had non-equal spacing between the ribs is it the case with your model?
Also which markings have you picked?
Different Nie 11/16 had early (long) and late (short) type side panels
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Keep up the good work Dave. Your prop is beautiful. The Proper Plane hubs will really accentuate it. The Mk IV seat is spot on craftsmanship as well.
All the best,
Tim
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Thank you for the support, Richie and Tim!
Edgar, I checked the top wing, and the spacing on the Amodel ribs (from the center of the wing to the actual wingtip) is approximately as follows: 7.9mm/11/9.5/9.5/9.5/12.7/9.5/9.5/11/11/11.
When I compared it to Ian Stair's drawings in the Nieuport Datafile Special I was horrified to see that the drawings showed 11 ribs, versus the 10 on the model (black lines indicating rib stations on the Stair drawings, orange arrows showing those on the model):
(https://i.postimg.cc/nrxjpzxZ/E02732-E7-0-A14-4770-BE2-E-5254-E15630-E7.jpg)
So I checked with the best photo I have of the N.11/16 upper wing, and was happy to see that it showed 10 also:
(https://i.postimg.cc/cCKkYwL7/76-CD08-C4-3075-43-AB-99-CA-5-CE80-E017-C1-E.jpg)
So it looks like Amodel got the correct number of ribs, do you know if their spacing is correct also?
The side panels on the kit are 41.2mm from the back of the cockpit to the firewall, and have trapezoidal access panels just aft of the aluminum "cheek".
RE: markings, I'm doing my model as the machine flown by Sgt. Henri Barnay of Esc. N.37 in May of 1916, a photo of which is shown on pg. 21 of the Datafile Special. I've been working on this profile of it:
(https://i.postimg.cc/25BVWv8r/3590DD8D-8BA5-4E03-979D-AA05E3670FBE.jpg)
... although there's more work to do on it. I'm still researching and trying to decide what version of the early camouflage I'm going to do, but for now I'm going with brown and light/dark green. A few posts ago I put up a shot of several different variations...
All best,
Dave V.
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Nice work Dave!
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Thanks, Unk! I'm having a great time with all the problem-solving, which I guess is why I like the more basic kits.
D.V
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Always an exciting moment in any build when you can finally envisage the different bits becoming an aeroplane (masking tape and all):
(https://i.postimg.cc/mgr485m1/FBB64-EC4-BF6-B-4-E65-AAF7-35264-B22890-D.jpg)
Dave V.
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As if by magic (well Tamiya tape which is pretty magical) a fuselage has appeared. That is indeed exciting!
Richie
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Always exciting to see the fuselage take shape 8)
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Thanks Richie and Ben, been making progress over the past week but a lot of it has been experimental stuff, playing with different techniques and materials. I think, though, after at least a dozen attempts, I've finally produced a Levasseur prop that I'm satisfied with. These were the first ones:
(https://i.postimg.cc/63BP23tQ/C2-A9-F198-7-D24-424-F-8-F4-A-5-B9-B65-C9-CDEB.jpg)
... and this is the latest, with a coat of clear drying oil wiped on and the Proper Plane hub plate test-fitted:
(https://i.postimg.cc/yYnptBhq/18-F3181-E-9-A77-4142-85-D1-864-E5-A100166.jpg)
There's still some finish work to do on it, particularly around the hub, but all in all I'm pretty happy with it. I love the grain, it's a piece of quarter-sawn cherry... too bad it'll nearly all be hidden by the final Levasseur red-brown shellac finish!
Dave V.
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That and the seat both look great! Practice makes perfect.
Steve
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Both the seat and prop look excellent ! Your persistence is paying dividends!
RAGIII
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That was time very well spent Dave, the seat and prop are superb.
Richie
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Think you are cheating and using magic somehow!
Really well done props!
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Richie, Steve, Rick, and Ben, thanks much. When I set out to do this build log my goal was to produce a model that was about 1/3 as good as most of your guy's work, so the comments and support are greatly appreciated.
Forging ahead with the interior, trying to strike a balance between satisfying my urge to do every little thing to the best of my ability against the realization that most of it won't be seen once the fuselage is closed up. But I remember reading in Stephen Fry's autobiography that when still at Cambridge he had a bit part in "Chariots of Fire", and he wrote about the production crew's attention to detail... they'd complete the backs of sets and supplied props that were most likely never going to be seen just in case the director changed his mind and went with a different camera angle (you can actually see him, briefly, in the scene at the University bazaar).
Thanks again!
Dave V.
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Kudos on the seat and prop!
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The "But I know it's there" is always valid. 8)
Steve
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The "But I know it's there" is always valid. 8)
I scratchbuilt a battery for a 1/72 biplane so you'll never catch me criticising someone doing stuff like this!!
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Thanks, Ken & Steve! And Zac, I'm with you 100%, I spent at least four hours scratching an elevator-cable pulley for the back of the box the seat is mounted on, knowing full well that you wouldn't be able to see it. And the rear bays of the fuselage are semi-detailed as well, but it's been a while since I've done any rigging and I'm just doing that for a warm-up.
I'm well into l'intérieur at this point. Mine is probably going to differ in some respects from other builds I've seen, since I'm basing it on the only three photos I've been able to find of indisputably French Bébé's (two are of the sole surviving N.11, currently hanging from the rafters at Le Bourget). Rather than the diagonally-laid mahogany laminations in the N.17, it has cockpit sides constructed from single panels of mahogany ply with the grain running fore & aft.
About 1999 my late brother was throwing away a Griffin's Robusto cigar tube, and, knowing my predilection for materials that might be useful for scratchbuilding, pulled out the cedar wrapping and said "Here, I guess you might be able to use this..." So I added it to my wood stash, and, twenty years later, realized it was the perfect color for those ply panels:
(https://i.postimg.cc/SsHP5mvn/A8-BFDC85-67-FC-4589-8341-2-BC3-A4-FC7143.jpg)
Thanks, bro'.
Dave V.
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Well, you never know where modeling materials may come from.
Looks very good.
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Excellent interior work Dave. That wood from the Cigar tube really looks terrific. The grain is good, not too pronounced for the scale!
RAGIII
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Thank you, Rick and Ken, your comments are always appreciated, and a real motivation to keep this log going.
More interior progress, although needless to say it all needs much additional work:
(https://i.postimg.cc/C13tVrPb/D04338-F2-A206-4-BF6-B7-ED-470450-F6-FDF0.jpg)
DV
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Excellent work on a very challenging kit. You are convincing me more than ever to wait for the Copper State Models version of the 11/16....... ;)
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More lovely progress Dutch, it's moving al9ng nicely now you have the seat and prop made. The seat is a work of art in its own right!
Richie
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Thanks, Richie! It's all been tremendous fun so far.
And Nigel, "challenging" is exactly the right word! But my Standard Operating Procedure is to hack a kit to pieces and scratchbuild about 50% of it, so it's all in a day's work :-D
Dutch
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Although you had a slow start with parts taking place over major progress, you are now showing what it all will look like together. Lovely work!
RAGIII
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Thanks, Rick... yes, this project has indeed been slow off the mark, but it's been harder than I imagined to pick up on modeling after a three-year hiatus, especially so after switching from 1:48 to Wingnut scale. But fun nonetheless.
Much fiddly-bitting over the weekend, and a near-disaster when I dumped the whole shooting match on the floor while cleaning up... the only real damage was a small lip broken off the top of the box the seat is mounted on. To prevent any repeats I repurposed the carton my new 10X magnifying lamp came in, and made a new home for everything:
(https://i.postimg.cc/XYp1CFT0/FE42-C18-F-0-B97-486-E-973-F-9974547-E353-B.jpg)
Of course, while demonstrating its inherent superiority to my wife, I nearly dumped everything arsy-varsy again :-P
Onward,
Dutch
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Haha careful Dave - I dont think this magnificent bird is quite ready for its first flight yet ;)
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I am glad that the drop didn't do any serious damage! That box is way too organized for Me. I just found a part I thought was lost forever It was an elevator actuator for a Ju88 in 1/72nd scale.
RAGIII
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Thanks, Ben and Rick!
Argentine writer Jorge Luis Borges wrote a story called "The Garden of Forking Paths", the title of which pretty much sums up my experiences with the cockpit in my Nieuport project. I recently found two photos (rare as hen's teeth!) of the interior of the only surviving N.11, which now hangs from the ceiling at Le Bourget, and have been using them as guidance in my interior detailing. But as I've studied them, some perplexing things have emerged:
(https://i.postimg.cc/7ZDknzXw/130-C6-E52-9683-48-CD-A7-CB-9-FD19-E891745.jpg)
Most importantly, the seat is not the "short seat" visible in most of the scarce photographs of N.11 interiors—many of which are, in fact, of Italian-built Macchi Ni 11000s—but the taller seat that I started building when I started out. And not only that, but it has the tubular cross-brace that supported the front edge of the seat, as is seen in photos of the N.17:
(https://i.postimg.cc/PJLPkRRW/2-A48-B371-BB94-4-BDF-AECA-800-C13-C0-ACE0.jpg)
It presents an interesting quandary. On the one hand there's a number of photos of Nieuport 11 (or Nieuport-Macchi) interiors, showing the box-type mount and the short seat. But then there's the evidence presented by the sole remaining French-built N.11 at the Museé de l'Air, showing what seems to be the later tall seat and stamped steel mounting arrangement of the N.17 (the cross-brace at the front edge of the seat would be unnecessary if it was sitting on the wooden box).
So here's the mystery; was the tall seat/steel mount developed at a late stage of N.11 production, and then carried forward on the N.16 and then the N.17? If so, that would explain their presence in the Le Bourget example. Or did the restoration team simply put in a seat/mount from an N.17? It seems unlikely that one of the most prestegious air museums in the world would make a goof like that.
I used to study medieval history, and learned early on to always go with your primary sources—the closer a document is to the events it relates, the more reliable it generally is. So who do you trust in this case, the photos, or the real aeroplane...?
Curiouser and curiouser, as Alice said.
I think I'll take a break and work on the motor for a while :-/
Dutch
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This is the kind of thing that drives me mad and really slows down my builds. I spend ages looking at photos and references so that I can get things as historically accurate as possible. But at the end of the day, how many people in the entire world will look inside the cockpit of your Nie 16 model and say "well I think he's put the wrong kind of seat and seat mounting in there"? It's probably zero - if you hadn't told us, I am sure most people on here would not have noticed, and this is WWI nerd central.....
It seems unlikely that one of the most prestegious air museums in the world would make a goof like that.
It's possible they might. There have been many restorations in important museums that have turned out to be wrong. Often, restorations are based on the best knowledge available at the time which subsequently turns out to be proven incorrect by newer research. And there are some WWI aircraft restorations that are just plain wrong.
After all that work on the seat, it seems a pity to change based on something that might or might not be true....... ;)
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It seems unlikely that one of the most prestegious air museums in the world would make a goof like that.
It's possible they might. There have been many restorations in important museums that have turned out to be wrong. Often, restorations are based on the best knowledge available at the time which subsequently turns out to be proven incorrect by newer research. And there are some WWI aircraft restorations that are just plain wrong.
Exactly my thinking, Nigel! I can think of several such examples from all eras of aviation, some of which are yet to be rectified.
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Thanks for the input, Nigel & Zac! RE: restoration goof-ups, you really don't have to look much farther than our NASM to see how horribly wrong things can go with a restoration. The dreadful candy-colored lozenge on "Stropp" resulted from just that sort of mix-up.
This photo is all I have to work with for the cockpit of "my" N.16, No. 986:
(https://i.postimg.cc/nV0wGkct/E974-B45-F-4-E7-A-4-D80-A45-F-E3-C9-E5-CB6-BB6.jpg)
... although I originally thought this one, showing Sgt Barnay in the cockpit, might be 986 as well:
(https://i.postimg.cc/0j6vs288/3-CA226-CA-C5-DC-476-C-B318-F8-ED6898-B191.jpg)
But there doesn't seem to be a headrest in this photo, indicating it's an 11. Also, the mirror is mounted inboard of the cockpit coaming vs outboard on the above photo.
On reflection I think I'll just go with the earlier seat/control arrangement, since to go back now would require completely re-doing the whole aft section of the cockpit.
Onward, through night and fog...
Dutch
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Progress on Projet Barnay has been slow lately, but a lot of it hasn't been particularly post-worthy. I'm still really feeling my way towards the new level of detail that's possible in 1:32, and experimenting with techniques and materials. I've spent a lot of time working on the rear of the fuselage, knowing full well that practically none of it will be visible after things are buttoned up... but it's allowed me to get comfortable and explore methods of rigging and weathering and so forth:
(https://i.postimg.cc/nrft8Cpv/31-B27534-661-A-4-DC8-8-CA3-EBA3-F6-E7-D128.jpg)
Plus I've been having a lot of fun :-)
The wood putty under the headrest is basicaly to capture the shape of the upholstered ply panel that closes off the opening under the decking, which I'll make up either out of veneer or styrene. I know there was a ply former with a laced-in fabric panel on the N.17 behind the seat, but I've seen no evidence that the N.11/16 had that feature. If anybody knows otherwise, please LMK...
Dutch
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The wood grain in the forward fuselage and all of the rigging and fabric in the rear fuselage look great! (Seen or unseen) I think you made the right decision to keep the seat as is. It looks awesome!
RAGIII
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Awesome work Dutch, I agree with Rick about the wood grain and fabric. Doesn't matter a jot if the added details will be visible or not. What I love about it is that you had fun experimenting with materials and techniques. Keep going Dutch it's looking fab!
Richie
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Looks like good progress here, I'm looking forward to seeing more of this.
I've spent a lot of time working on the rear of the fuselage, knowing full well that practically none of it will be visible after things are buttoned up... but it's allowed me to get comfortable and explore methods of rigging and weathering and so forth:
The temptation with 1/32 is to detail everything only to find that 90% of it can't be seen when the model is built! I've come to the realisation that with limited time left to build the stash I will only detail what can be seen. But then the advantage of sites like this is that you can share all the lovely detailing before it disappears forever!
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Thanks, all! I'm pleasantly surprised by the way your comments are encouraging me to keep working on this little beast.
Rick, I'm pretty happy with the way the wood is coming out. It's difficult for me to tell where the real wood leaves off (cockpit sides and forward section of "floor" are that cigar wrapper ultra-thin cedar) and the painted wood takes over (longerons, formers, cross-braces, and the cable run). Years ago when I used to do trade work I specialized in decorative painting; wood-graining, rag-rolling, marbleizing, that sort of thing... but never at 1:32 scale!
Richie and Nigel, I've never been a "detail everything whether it can be seen or not" modeler, and in this case I'm not going to do all the greebles in the front of the cockpit, just what will be visible. But I have had fun warming up and resurrecting some of my half-forgotten modeling skills (such as they are!) on the back of the fuselage.
So far I've scratchbuilt everything except for the fuselage halves, bottom and headrest. I figure by the time I'm done only about 60% of the model will consist of kit parts.
Dutch
(https://i.postimg.cc/RCb8WSqc/54-E0-B246-3-E51-4-FE4-823-F-9-B82-F78-BDB35.jpg)
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As much as I enjoy seeing your progress photos none have brought me quite the joy this has:
Plus I've been having a lot of fun :-)
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... I take the view that each major component should be a model (or sub-project) in itself; the Levasseur prop, for example, has been through ten incarnations so far, each noticeably more accurate than the last, and I'm still not done with it. But doing the research, and striving for that kind of accuracy is half the fun for me!...
I tend to agree...
Using the the cedar wrapping of a sigar tube for the inside of the fuselage is just brilliant. It's very inspiring to see you use so much wood on this build Dave. The propellers and the seat look great (museum goof-ups or not)!
Cheers,
Willem
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Thank you, Willem, I was a carpenter and cabinetmaker for a long time, and have a great love of wood so I use it wherever it's applicable... and sometimes where it's not :-)
I've been making slow progress on the interior of the N.16, but things have been greatly helped along by my purchase of the tiny Acalox 201 rotary tool (as recommended by Sandy/macsporran some weeks back) and a set of proper mini-drill bits from Drill Bits Unlimited—and I saw your post earlier, it's too bad that shipping to the Netherlands is so high as they're wonderful tools.
I'm hoping to actually get the cockpit area finished to the point where I can glue the fuselage halves together this weekend. Here's the major components, in varying stages of completion.
(https://i.postimg.cc/N0zc9v9Q/17-D845-FE-2-ADA-4-FC8-A980-40740303456-C.jpg)
Dutch
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I must say I really am loving the extra attention and details going in to this build. The N.16 is a lovely subject, and one that I have never tackled - your work is inspiring me to dust off the old Toko 1/72 kit and gaze at the possibilities. Great stuff!
Cheers,
BC
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Thanks, Brad, I've been partial to these little aeroplanes since my older brother helped me build the Aurora kit sometime back before the Flood (well, actually it was probably around 1963). I'd love to see what kind of magic you could work with that Toko kit.
The fuselage didn't get buttoned up like I'd hoped this weekend, but I made progress, and had a wonderful time doing so; I'm particularly happy with the gun trigger and Bowden cable on the control column (which you can barely see in the photo below) made from a length of fuse wire with one end flattened in a pair of round-nosed pliers:
(https://i.postimg.cc/rwh6J85B/4-FE57-BB5-5-B5-F-4-D15-9-A76-DA43-D6-BFB221.jpg)
The piece in grey in the foreground is the kit foot-races, alongside one of my prototype scratchbuilt replacements.
Still needs belts and instruments—or at least a tachometer and a clock—but after nearly three months I think I'm ready to climb out of the cockpit and start working on the outside of Sgt Barnay's a/c.
Dutch
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Lovely work, it's looking really good. Nice work on the Bowden cable.
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Hiya Dutch, so sorry I haven't been around for a while. You've made some beautiful progress in my absence. All the time spent on the cockpit interior has really paid off. It is so beautiful and filled with detail and lovely artistic touches. I'm going to have to go back and admire the photos some more now!
Richie
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Thanks, Nigel, I'm closing in on buttoning up the fuselage. There have been some issues, but as this is my first attempt at a 1:32 build I'm cutting myself some slack :-)
And Richie, thanks a lot, brother... hope you've had some time to work on the BE and/or Levasseur!
Dutch
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Lovely work Dutch, it's nice to see things coming together so well.
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As Magnum, P.I. used to say, "Despite appearances, serious work is in progress here." I've had limited modeling time in the past few weeks, but the interior is coming along, literally, by bits and pieces. But it's a case of one step forward, two steps back much of the time:
(https://i.postimg.cc/tTGkt3hd/963372-B5-A244-43-D3-8927-2-EA19-A8-A135-A.jpg)
The ragged looking curved cockpit/headrest fairing piece won't be able to be finished (along with its padding) until the fuselage halves are glued together; as it is they slide together via a slot in the putty that makes up the bulk of said piece. But at least the unfinished mixture-control "rail", blip switch, and Tampier valve—the blobby thing at the end nearest the firewall—are mounted to the larboard cockpit wall (still needs the oil pulsator & all the appropriate plumbing), and brass-bound copper fuel tank (cut down, since you won't be able to see any of it except the face) are done.
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Wonderful progress on this build. I really appreciate seeing all the scratch work you are doing.
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Nice progress. You're beating this one into shape!
Steve
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Nice progress. You're beating this one into shape!
Steve
Thanks, that sums up this build in a nutshell, Steve! Having taken on the old first-gen Eduard kits Back In The Day I thought "hey, this Amodel kit can't be that hard..." But at the rate things are going there won't be a single unaltered kit part by the time I'm done, and about a third of the model will have been completely scratchbuilt.
And thanks, Tim, I'm drawing great inspiration from watching what you're doing with those tiny Bennett racers!
Dutch
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Some significant progress, at last; I finished the cockpit (more or less) and closed up the fuselage. After trying and failing to get a definitive answer to the seat-belt configuration I decided to go with the simple heavy leather belt illustrated in the Nieuport-Macchi parts "catalog", scratched from thin masking tape and a buckle made of miniscule bits of brass wire. The tach is the kit part, unmodified except for a cable made of fine solder, and embellished with an instrument face off a fragment of an Aviattic D.VII sheet included as a bonus on another order. Still to add is the curved bar under the coaming, and a watch (?) that's clearly visible on the port side in photos of Sgt Barnay's a/c:
(https://i.postimg.cc/C11sBvcL/27-D387-BC-0933-44-DA-A927-44-F4-F87-F6349.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/26sGsQxk/06207-B10-A84-D-4-F57-B6-D0-9-BFB5070-DEE2.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/y6XBLvj8/06833-A6-A-3824-4-B86-97-DF-ED7-E219-C1-A1-D.jpg)
And yes, that is indeed a large ginger cat on my lap, he's the Inspector of Quality Control, among other things. Thanks for taking a look!
Dutch
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Very nice cockpit, lovely wooden tones. That comes up very nice!
Andreas
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Looking very good, the interior came together very nicely. And a nice cat too!
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Thanks!
Andreas, the wood tones are mostly actual wood, the seat "box" is Swiss pear, and the cockpit floor & sidewalls are ultra-thin cedar veneer that came as the wrapper on a fancy cigar.
And Nigel, having just started building again after a long hiatus, I'm still working out of a collection of cardboard boxes in the dining room, conveniently close to the bay window where the cats usually lounge. But despite my fears that the Nieuport might end up as the world's most elaborate cat-toy, neither he nor his sister have ever bothered it (or me while I'm working on it, for that matter :-)
Dutch
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That interior looks great!
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Thanks, Gaz, been having a lot of fun with it. Only took two and a half months to get out of the cockpit!
Dutch
PS - Saw on some old posts that you're former Michigander... I'm in New England and it's getting to be that time of year up here in the Northern Hemisphere. Guess you guys probably don't have snowplows down there in Queensland, huh...? :-D
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Having gotten the fuselage together at long last, it's time to deal with the awful fit issues in the nose/cowl area. I'm trying to imagine a first-time builder taking a stab at this kit, and have to say that it would be an almost insurmountable challenge... I can only imagine that the poor engineering, obscure instructions, shallow dimples for mounting points (if they're there at all) and a host of other issues would doom it to being thrown out the window in frustration in short order. Heck, I've built hundreds of models, and it's still proving to be a marathon test of my patience and skills.
(https://i.postimg.cc/25mqJZp6/5-D7-FDB1-B-C43-E-4-F8-C-811-A-BBEA30-E5-D713.jpg)
That's the best fit I've been able to achieve, and that's after a fair amount of refining the parts; I had to splay out the rear of the two-part cowling almost 0.31"/0.7mm in order to get it to fit on the firewall. Trying to get the "cheeks" to match up on both sides is going to be yet another part of the nightmare challenge :P
DV
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Having gotten the fuselage together at long last, it's time to deal with the awful fit issues in the nose/cowl area. I'm trying to imagine a first-time builder taking a stab at this kit, and have to say that it would be an almost insurmountable challenge... I can only imagine that the poor engineering, obscure instructions, shallow dimples for mounting points (if they're there at all) and a host of other issues would doom it to being thrown out the window in frustration in short order.
You are making great progress here with a very challenging kit. I am glad I decided to put mine in the spare parts box when I saw CSM have plans to (possibly) do this at some stage....
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I have just passed though the complete thread after a long break. Wow, your work on details is amazing. And the results are great. Good luck with the continuation of this stunning project.
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Thanks, both!
Nigel, honestly I bought the Amodel kit because I was thinking of making the switch to a larger scale after building 1:48 for years, and didn't want to spend a lot of money to see if 1:32 was a good fit. I went for the Amodel because it was about half the price of the Special Hobby kit, but I wish now I'd spent the extra US$30 and gone for the SH. And fingers crossed that Edgar is tooling up a Bébé, I'll buy at least two :)
And Prezmo, Ni 'lassui, mellon. That means a lot coming from someone whose work is a constant inspiration to me!
All best,
Dutch
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Uh, that‘s what I‘d call a bad fit >:(
The question is: is the fuselage side part too curvy or the upper decking too straight? It’s the later, I‘d say judging from the photo. I think I‘d glue in a plastic wedge ans sand it all smooth. Reconstructing the lost stitching detail looks manageable.
Good luck!
Andreas
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Thanks, Andreas, I basically did just that last night, although there's still some fine-tuning of the upper decking to do:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y0THzKgZ/7-C895-C24-FDD0-44-EB-ABA8-B0-DE9804-BC8-F.jpg)
Replacing the stitching won't be a problem, because there wasn't any to begin with, just these featureless lips:
(https://i.postimg.cc/JhkwQdKB/DE796-BF3-C8-A4-40-EC-9833-D403-A2-D34355.jpg)
How I'm going to replicate the lacing is a problem I'm working on now.
I've sanded off what fuselage detail there was, since it was all rudimentary to begin with. The brass tube will get cut flush and serve as a socket for a brass rod embedded in the sesquiplanes for strength, and I'll replace the crude kit air intake nubs with Albion Alloys aluminum tubing when I get everything else squared away.
All best,
Dutch
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How I'm going to replicate the lacing is a problem I'm working on now.
When I converted my WNW Fe2b into a Fe2d, I used fishing line and a sharp drill bit to replicate stitching. But of course the plastic was way thinner there. But it might work here, too?
(https://picload.org/image/rwcplgia/img_6986.jpg)
Andreas
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Great work so far! This isn't an easy kit by any stretch.
Warren
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Hi Dutch,
Maybe you could try the resin transfer stitching from 'Archer' (AR88004).
It's raised and applied like a decal,
Mike
https://forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com/index.php?topic=1423.0 (https://forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com/index.php?topic=1423.0)
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Maybe you could try the resin transfer stitching from 'Archer' (AR88004).
IF you can find it as I believe Archer has gone out of business.
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Andreas, Mike, Warren, and Zac; thanks for the encouragement and ideas, and sorry it took me so long to reply.
Andreas, of course I had to go back and look up your F.E. conversion thread and read the entire thing... what an amazing project. The stitching is a technique that I'll definitely apply to my upcoming D.H.2 build, but I'm afraid I'd have to remove the top decking on the N.16 now to thin down the fuselage walls enough to make it work, and I just don't have the heart to do so!
Mike, thanks for the link to the Archer site (which is still up and running, Zac, but there again so is WnW's... I sent them an inquiry anyway), which gave me the idea to experiment with an applique of my own, using self-adhesive aluminum tape like they use on heating & a/c ducting, embossing the details in from behind with a blunt sewing needle. It actually worked better than I thought it would, but I'll have to refine the technique before it produces anything that's worth sharing.
I spent a large part of last night looking through my library of Nieuport photos, and realized that the actual lacing strips were much different than I thought they were:
(https://i.postimg.cc/x1Y90XmZ/9A49E473-A55D-49AA-954F-A856EEA03752.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/bwsVJw2c/91-CE5-B81-D1-DB-4-DD7-AF9-F-0-C3974-F492-E4.png)
... I'd always thought that the dark strip on top was a leather or fabric "lip" that you could turn down to protect the lacing, but the photos I blew up last night clearly showed that it was just a strip of material glued or doped on the ply top decking with eyelets that allowed it to be laced to the studs on the lower, metal strip.
I just love a challenge :)
All best,
Dutch
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Well, you have plenty of challenges here! I'm also interested in seeing what you do with the stitching.
Best of luck!
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Mike, thanks for the link to the Archer site (which is still up and running, Zac, but there again so is WnW's... I sent them an inquiry anyway),
I hope I'm wrong, good luck!
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Thanks, Ken and Zac! Still putzing around with different methods of replicating the Nieuport upper deck lacing system, and think this one shows promise:
(https://i.postimg.cc/3NBcmY9K/E514832A-57B2-44D6-A844-8D66DD9824CF.jpg)
Mike's idea of an applique led me to try making the upper strip from thin "Nichiban" masking tape painted with Vallejo Red Leather & punched at 1/32" intervals to represent the grommets, and the lower from HVAC aluminum foil tape punched from the back to represent the lacing studs. If I can get it perfected (it's overscale now, compared to the photos in my last post) I'll do a more detailed explanation.
All best,
Dutch
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That's a very effective method.
I wish you luck,
Kevin
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IMHO it looks quite nice as is.
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IMHO it looks quite nice as is.
My thoughts, too!
Andreas
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IMHO it looks quite nice as is.
My thoughts, too!
Andreas
Ditto
Sandy
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Very nice work, I can only agree it looks pretty good right now. Although it may be a bit overscale, it's creating the right impression. Remember that a lot of what we do is overscale but the end result is meant to make the eye "see" a representation of the real thing in miniature.
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Kevin, Tim, Andreas, Sandy, Nigel, thank you all. And Nigel, it's interesting that in my artwork—I'm a landscape painter—that's very much a concept that I deal with on a daily basis... rather than paint every leaf on a tree, you learn to suggest detail with a few rapid brushstrokes and leave the rest to the viewer's imagination. I guess I need to learn to apply it to my modeling too.
I probably won't be making much progress on the Nieup this week, I finally got sick of working out of a collection of cardboard boxes in the dining room and am setting up a dedicated workbench in a corner of my painting studio/bar/home theatre/son's XBox command center. Film at eleven, as they say on the TV news :-)
Dutch
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Another option for adhesive foil is the copper foil used for guitar shielding. It's very thin (2.6 mil) but is copper so would need to be painted. Sold on Amazon and inexpensive.
Steve
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Hi Steve, I wonder whether that's the same as the stuff ship modelers use to replicate the copper plating on hulls? I was using it on my scratchbuilt solid-hull HM Schooner Fair Rosamond some years back.
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Dutch
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Sure looks similar.
Steve
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Wishing a good and thoughtful Armistice Day to all.
Although my new workspace isn't completely up and running yet, I was having withdrawls from not hacking up the N.16 and broke the bench in last night by doing some cleanup on the wing and ailerons and a rough assembly of the landing gear:
(https://i.postimg.cc/g0hBMNb2/FA8005-F8-F4-D5-4-AE2-819-B-A0-DE3610-B223.jpg)
I'm mildly amazed—given the challenges I've been facing with this kit—that I've been able to maintain interest in this project for five and a half months, something which is due in large part to the comments, suggestions, and general feedback I've been getting from everyone here.
So Bedankt, Dziękuję, merci bien, Vielen Dank, and a huge thank you to everyone who's looked in!
Dutch
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Keep going, I am sure the finished result will be worth it!
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Hear hear Dutch, you've done so well to get to this point and it will be so rewarding once you cross the finish line.
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Thanks, Nigel and Zac, and sorry to have taken so long to reply. The N.16 build has gone into “Sleep” mode for a bit, as my energy has unexpectedly been channeled in a new direction:
(https://i.postimg.cc/C5n45mx7/IMG-9379.jpg)
… who says the Fokker Scourge ended in 1916?
Dutch
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Sometimes you just have to do a nice straightforward build.....!
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Thanks Nigel, yes, the Amodel kit has so many engineering issues that as I've mentioned it's going to be about 33% scratchbuilt by the time it's finished. It was time to take a break, and the lure of trying a WnW kit—this will be my first ever—was nagging at me to the point where my defenses started to crumble :)
Dutch
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Watch out for wing droop on the Fokker, a common problem. Przemol's build has a nice cure if you haven't seen it: https://forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com/index.php?topic=14022.0 (https://forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com/index.php?topic=14022.0)