forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com
Modelers Lounge => The World of Scale Models => Topic started by: lcarroll on June 29, 2021, 08:48:47 AM
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I am taking a short break from WW.I subjects and a trip back in time to tackle this "oldie but goodie". I always have been a great fan of the between the wars period of aviation and the US Navy's "yellow Wings" era. This Kit was released in 1962, a big year for me as I was enrolled in the RCAF that year. The kit is going to require a few scratch built additions to the spartan cockpit, substitute wheels and tires as the kit versions are far too narrow (to allow for the unique folding landing gear on the Kit) and detailed references are mostly from on-line sources.
(https://i.imgur.com/FYNxNxd.jpg)
Just short of 60 years old!
(https://i.imgur.com/MoTIeQl.jpg)
The instructions certainly aren't a Copper State or Wingnut Wings "keeper"!
(https://i.imgur.com/YKQduSP.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/QA6nMjy.jpg)
My only printed reference published in 1966. Fortunately there's an abundance of great material on-line.
(https://i.imgur.com/ZagRUua.jpg)
I'll be using these "Yellow Wings" Decals for this Build, I've used them in the past and they are of excellent quality.
(https://i.imgur.com/3PQOvhV.jpg)
and finally the parts, minus the Instrument board and fuselage halfs which are just started and on my work bench.
(https://i.imgur.com/pxuurXT.jpg)
I am looking forward to this little adventure, next update will be the cockpit construction.
Cheers,
Lance
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Lance,
I’m looking forward to the build. It’s one of my favorite aircraft too.
Kevin
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Was this the kit that Monogram derived the Grumman Gulfhawk from?
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I remember watching my Uncles build these when I was young , this sure brings back happy memories . Looking forward to this Lance :)
Alexis
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Was this the kit that Monogram derived the Grumman Gulfhawk from?
According to Scalemates it was the other way around; the Monogram Gulf Hawk was released in 1960 followed by the F3F with "modified parts" in 1962.
Cheers,
Lance
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Looks a really good project, Lance
Good luck!
Regards
Dave
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I will follow with interest, Lance. I have this one in the stash too. Fond memories from the wayback machine. ;D
Best regards,
Bob
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Great stuff! I am building Trumpeters F4F-3 at the moment :)
Andreas
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Golly Lance, those instructions look far too complicated for me!
A real trip down memory lane: the old Monogram kits set the standard for their time and still build into good models today provided some care and extra details are added. You will make a first class model from this I am sure, so I will be following along.
Stephen.
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I understand the top wing is too short for a F3F-3,can't recall the details, but in fact Mike West produced a corrected resin one.
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Great era!!
Steve
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Looking forward to your build Lance !
Ed
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Thanks for checking in on this Gents. Dave, I am aware of the wing span issue. According to the References the aircraft had a span of 32 feet thus an easy task even for me to convert that to exactly 1 foot on a 1:32 Scale model! The Kit's wing is just under 11 inches so short around 3 scale feet. I believe monogram had been accurate on the dimensions of the Gulf Hawk which had a span of 29 feet, and either didn't know or didn't care about the additional 3 feet when they released the F3F3 using the same wing. I'm going to choose the latter route as well, it's mostly a "fun" Build! ;)
Cheers,
Lance
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Mike of Lone Star Models had a set of corrected wings and interior for this kit. Not sure if it's still available. It's a fun kit
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Lance,
The Gulfhawk 2 was basically an F3F-2 with F2F-1 wings. I know it's a "fun build", but if you want the definitive reference on the F3F, you should look up the Steve Ginter book on the F2F/ F3F. It is written by Rich Dann. I did have a small part in helping check details in the book.
The book has some new information about the F3F-3, which I had never read before. After the Brewster F2A-1 Buffalo was tested in the Navy's Full Scale Wind Tunnel at Langley, drag-reducing modifications were carried out, which increased top speed by 31 mph! The USN wanted to test other fighters, and the F3F was next. F3F-2 BuNo 1031 was tested, and retested with several modifications, mainly to the forward fuselage and engine cowling area. 1031 became the F3F-3 prototype. Many of these changes somehow escaped notice for many years, and I've never seen them accurately included in an F3F-3 kit. I'm actually in the process of making an F3F-3 from the Accurate Miniatures 1/48 F3F-2 kit; it's a slow process for me (nothing new there).
Also, a note on the Yellow Wings decals. In the 1/32 sheet, BuNo 1451 is shown as 6-F-15. It appears in the movie "Dive Bomber". I've researched this closely, and in the movie, 1451 is 6-F-14. Interestingly, on the 1/48 YW sheet "Planes of the movie 'Dive Bomber'", he corrected it to 6-F-14. 6-F-15, in the movie, was BuNo 0967, which was the very first production F3F-2! I have several screenshots I can share.
Rich and I discussed this, but the number 6-F-15 somehow slipped through the editing process. Some kits have also gotten this wrong before (including a later issue of the Revell kit). I haven't seen a photo in VF-5 colors, but BuNo 1451 had most likely been 5-F-7, prior to assignment to VF-6. During the short Fleet service of these airplanes, many were reassigned several times between the various squadrons.
I used to have a Photobucket account, and have not yet gone to another provider for photo storage. Here is a link to a post I have on another site, which allows photos to be posted directly from your computer. It shows the Navy's use of adjustable horizontal stabilizers in the 1930's, and shows how I've started to modify the kit to show this detail. The vast majority of photos I've found of parked F3F's shows the elevator trimmed out of the neutral position. There are also a couple of photos of the work I've done on the cockpit. Note that the F3F-3 had the forward sidewalls above the consoles painted flat black.
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/hyperscale/viewtopic.php?p=2776211#p2776211 (https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/hyperscale/viewtopic.php?p=2776211#p2776211)
If you'd like more information, feel free to send me a PM. One of the first things Rich said to me was that he didn't think there was anyone else as nuts about the F3F as he was! I've been off the bench for a while, but I think it's time to revisit this project.
Pete Hicks
P.S. - As if this isn't wordy enough, I wanted to add another note on the decals. There aren't a lot of photos of F3F-3's. I've only found 5 planes from VF-5 on Yorktown. However, there's a marking detail that everyone seems to have missed, including Yellow Wings. When 5-F-1 was photographed at the factory, the star in the squadron "diving eagle" emblem was upside down! It had been correct on F2F's. They apparently continued to paint the planes assigned to VF-5 in this way. The eagle is still diving, but in the VF-5 photos I've seen, the stars in the emblem were point down. If I choose to do one of these, I would try to use a mask for the star and circle, and hope I can cut out the eagle from the decal to apply over it. Could be tricky, but I have several extra decals to test it on.
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Pete,
Sorry, I missed this until just now when I was about to post a small update. That's some great information and very interesting. It's a good thing this is mostly a "fun Build" as you say, as my model is already full of inaccuracies that would normally drive me over the edge and into the abyss of an AMS max. overload!! I can revisit the cockpit sidewalls with a spray of flat black and will do so. The references I've been using specify silver, black, or chromate green, take your pick! As for interior photos their appear to be lots, but most of the -2 version, many are incorrectly captioned, and some are even of completely different aircraft.
I recently borrowed a disc of "Dive Bomber" from a friend and watched the flying scenes repeatedly, what a great classic. The opening scenes boggle the mind with the sheer numbers of aircraft!
I'm planning to do this one as VF-5's #1454 from Yorktown and will "live" with the Diving Eagle over a correctly placed star but that is a pretty neat story. If this were a WW.I subject I'd probably change color schemes as knowing it was wrong would drive me crazy!
Thanks for taking the time to forward all this info, great stuff!!
Cheers,
Lance
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So now a brief update #1. I'll be repainting the interior walls of the cockpit above the side consoles in black per Pete's very informed comments just before this. Here's the side consoles with scratch built additions added. the configuration and painting are a composite version of what I believe are period photos and also more recent photos of restored aircraft. The same goes for the main Instrument panel which is completely scrap built with styrene sheet, Aeroscale, Airscale, and Eduard PE and Instrument decals.
(https://i.imgur.com/FZD6eZq.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/afGbZ5x.jpg)
and the left side .........
(https://i.imgur.com/9roX2SM.jpg)
The main Instrument Panel. Decal instrument faces, PE Bezels, scratch built gun charging handles, some warning lights done with a Waldron punch set, and steel wire with CA end pieces for sliding "plunger" type levers.
(https://i.imgur.com/31dulPC.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/LxHUPZ5.jpg)
Finally the assembled Landing gear links. I wasn't decided on whether to build this with the retractable gear feature however that decision was made for me when I broke the left side assembly TWICE and realized building the model with the gear permanently in the extended position would be wise! The apparent break in the photo is not the bad one (it was break #3!) The bad ones occurred when some CA wicked into the joins and welded the rotating parts which I got free but paid the price. Sadly I'm certain that hundreds of 12 year old or younger modellers managed the task without disaster years ago! So don't believe the old adage about how really old men turn into little boys again; if it were true I'd have "aced" the damned gear!!! :o >:(
(https://i.imgur.com/3cWQMtr.jpg)
Now for some belts, a mixture control on the throttle quadrant, and a few pieces on the sidewalls and I'll close up the fuselage.
Cheers,
Lance
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I love this old kit! A high school friend of mine gave me a first issue kit that someone had tried (and failed) to make that gear work, and then gave up on it. I bought a newer release for spares, and with a lot of luck I made it work properly, and it ended up being one of my most enjoyable builds ever! I hope this one provides you as much enjoyment!
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Lance,
Happy to help with info, but I certainly understand trying to avoid advanced AMS with an oldie like this. I did build one as a teenager, and somehow managed to make the gear work. And that was back when the instructions usually told you to melt the shaft with a heated screwdriver to allow the parts to move! ("Get Dad to help.") It was a fun kit, and I wouldn't mind having one to play with again. Even the Accurate Miniatures kits, with the best molding technology of 1999-2000, missed some details, and some differences between versions. My issue with this kit right now, is how far to go with the details.
As far as I know, cockpit interiors were aluminum lacquer on all F3F's, at least until the war. Many ended up in training squadrons, some painted in Blue-grey over grey, but the cockpits may or may not have been repainted interior green. On the side of the fuselage, there's a panel line even with the middle of the sliding canopy. This is Station 8, which is the rear end of the black paint on the sidewalls. The tops of the consoles are also black back to this line.
I don't remember what the forward fuselage and cowling look like on the Revell kit. The main difference from the F3F-2 was added sheet metal behind the cowling, narrowing the gap between fuselage and cowling. The F3F had an issue with carbon monoxide buildup, and some vents near the tail helped with this on the F3F-2. The added sheet metal on the F3F-3 ended just forward of the rear center strut, and formed a crescent-shaped "vent" along the fuselage side. Because of this, the vents above the horizontal tail were removed. There were also changes to the cowl. The area between the exhausts was filled in with sheet metal, and fairings were added around the exhausts.
There's a built Revell kit on the last page of the Ginter book, and it has the yellow star for the unit insignia, with the star correctly pointed down! So, on at least one issue of the kit, they got it right.
Don't forget, these aircraft only had lap belts. There's a story about Jimmy Flatley, in his first flight in an F2F, forgetting to lower the gear, ending upside-down, and hitting the gun sight. His goggles broke, lacerating his eyelid. He sent a recommendation, endorsed by Captain John Tower, for the redesign of safety belts, but F4F Wildcats, as late as Midway, still had no shoulder harness!
I don't know if you followed the Hyperscale link I provided, but I hope you think about changing the tailplane incidence. It's a neat detail, but fairly easy to add.
Pete
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Thanks for the additional information Pete. I enjoyed the commentary in the Hyperscale link and plan to add the cutout for the variable incidence stab and will adjust the mounting of the tail plane as part of the change. The photos of the tail plane configuration in your link show it clearly and as you indicate it looks an easy fix. Like you I had to think about how far to go with the details. On a vintage kit such as this the temptation to add just "one more" is never ending!
Cheers,
Lance
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Coming along great guns, Lance
Wonderful detailing work in the cockpit and instrument panel - looking forward to further updates.
Regards
Dave
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Enjoying your build on this one Lance. Hopefully things are going a bit better now that we're into a bit cooler weather :)
Cheers,
Gary
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Dave, Gary, thanks very much! Gary, yes, it's finally cooling off; wasn't the past week or more a treat!? ...... and now 20 Degrees C feels too cold!
Cheers,
Lance
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You are adding lots of lovely detail on this Lance - certainly not an OOB build! It must be a bit cooler where you are because you would not be building so quickly if it was too hot!
Looking forward to reading more of your adventures with this oldie!
Stephen.
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Thanks for looking in Stephen, and for your comments. I'm just about ready to close up the Fuselage so will complete another small update.
The openings where the gears to allow retraction of the landing gear on the model of the aircraft as an "action" feature was panelled in with styrene sheet, filled, and sanded flush.
(https://i.imgur.com/GKOoQnM.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/JsO9FCV.jpg)
The landing gear was then installed in each fuselage half, painted, and the wheel wells filled in with panels not on the model.
(https://i.imgur.com/oALOSEb.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/t50k9LF.jpg)
The scratch Built side consoles were added along with a Lap Belt made from from HGW left overs from the spares box.
(https://i.imgur.com/vaapDjB.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/FAeCIJN.jpg)
..... and the left side console with the mixture control added to the throttle quadrant.
(https://i.imgur.com/qe6YHCE.jpg)
Finally the completed instrument panel with the rudder bar assembly added. This required no small amount of dry fitting and adjustment to fit snugly. It will need to be dry fitted when the fuselage is mated, then cemented in place later.
(https://i.imgur.com/R89lK8G.jpg)
I also have the wings completed and ready to add as well as the tail components; things should start to fall together a little faster from here.
Cheers,
Lance
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That's looking fabulous, Lance. I always remember your tip about the etched metal instrument bezels. Your panel looks exquisite!
Cheers,
Gary
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Lovely work. The extra detail is really bringing it to life. I did not know that Monogram made one of these in 1/32.
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Thanks both for your comments. The next step is a bit intimidating; mating those fuselage halves without losing rivet and panel detail, one of the distinct disadvantages of older Kits. An OOB Build in a couple of casual evenings this is not! On the other hand a few sessions of "real model building" is good for the soul! ;)
Cheers,
Lance
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You are putting in the same level of detail on this model as on your WNW kits Lance: the difference being that much more of the detail is your work. However the quality of the additions is as good as any WNW part.
Stephen.
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Thank you Stephen, your comments are very much appreciated.
I need to add another update asap, the wings are ready for decals as is the fuselage, it's suddenly coming together nicely!
Cheers,
Lance
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Looking good Lance! Thanks for the roadmap on this one. ;D
Best regards,
Bob
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Nice work in the pit Lance !
Alexis
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Bob, Alexis, Thanks for looking in and for your comments. I'm afraid I've run well ahead with no updates on this one for far too long so I'll try to do a bit of "catch up" here. I have finally completed the fuselage which required a long session of sanding and re-scribing of the details to get a satisfactory fit and result. I took a couple of photos just before closing it up as a lot of the interior detail, as usual, was about to disappear.
(https://i.imgur.com/sdyG6pT.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/dOmXFnS.jpg)
The aircraft fuselage was finished in a dull aluminum lacquer as opposed to the standard USN light grey, I used Tamiya Flat Aluminum. Next in the sequence came the tail components and most of the decals.
(https://i.imgur.com/pfUWPvF.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/nNR1zPx.jpg)
Masking of the tail area was a challenge but worked out very nicely. The square slot above the stabilator is for the adjustable (trimable) stab.
(https://i.imgur.com/egIjubc.jpg)
I've also got the wings almost finished and ready for assembly. I added some stainless aileron push rods for detail.
(https://i.imgur.com/Q446ElB.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/xo1CeCu.jpg)
Last, the cowling is painted, it still requires a strip of white piping to separate the black and aluminum areas.
(https://i.imgur.com/3egEB8M.jpg)
Earlier today I got the upper wing mounted and completed the decalling, almost there! I'll try to be a bit more regular with updates, hopefully a small one tomorrow.
Cheers,
Lance
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Looking great Lance!
Cheers,
Gary
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Thanks Gary, finally got it moving again. Here's the upper wing on, last decal (Wing Number 10 on wing), wing walks added, (lower wing is posed for the photo) landing gear with a bit of shading and the white piping on the cowling.
(https://i.imgur.com/k0K5Ys0.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/36aon7X.jpg)
Next is rigging the cabanes.
Cheers,
Lance
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It just looks fantastic!
Andreas
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Looking great, Lance! I hadn't remembered too many details about that old kit I built as a teenager. From your photos, I can see it doesn't have a fixed fillet for the stabilizers, which makes showing the adjustable tail difficult. On the wing root, the gloss black on the top of the wing fillet should cover all the way to the point at the rear, and the non-skid walkway on the wing should cover the entire wing front to back.
As for the aluminum-painted fuselage, Dana Bell has covered that history pretty thoroughly over the years. Early on, the USN standardized on Aluminum enamel for metal surfaces. With the early primers, the enamel developed a problem sticking to metal and wood surfaces, so they switched to gloss Gray enamel, which became known as Aircraft Gray. By the mid-30's, they switched to Aluminum lacquer, which did stick. During the time of gray metal surfaces, several types would have fuselages with mixed metal and fabric surfaces. On those planes, you would see the metal in gloss gray, and fabric in Aluminum dope on the same fuselage.
Grumman's earlier fighter, the F2F-1, began production during the time of Aircraft Gray fuselages, but was in service long enough that they were often repainted in Aluminum lacquer. By the time the F3F's were in production, Aluminum lacquer was the standard, and all of them were finished in that color. For some reason, when the F3F-2 at the US Naval Aviation Museum was restored, the fuselage was painted gray, which was incorrect.
When I built it back in the day, the Monogram instructions said to paint it gray, so that's what I did.
You're making that old kit look really good!
Pete
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Great work on this iconic kit Lance! I'm enjoying your build progress and loving those inter-war colours! Regards, Marc
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Wow, Lance, this looks great. Beautiful painted and so clean built. Very interesting model.
Bye Manni
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Thanks, everyone, for your encouraging and much appreciated comments! Pete, I've redone the anti skid portions of the lower wing filets and upper surfaces, thanks for the advice!
I've completed the wind screen and canopy frame work as well, will try for a few photos tomorrow with some natural light.
Cheers,
Lance
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Wow Lance - very beautiful color shades!
I love those colorful birds! 8)
Cheers,
Frank
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Quite a contrast to PC.10 for sure Frank! It's a nice change once every so often, not just the colors as you say but also many of the designs. I enjoy the American "Yellow Wings" subjects and find others even more attractive; hard to beat many of the British designs of the period, the Fury for example.
Cheers,
Lance
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Beauty!! Those Monogram kits made you pay attention. You've done a great job getting her all together and that scheme is awesome.
Steve
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Beauty!! Those Monogram kits made you pay attention. You've done a great job getting her all together and that scheme is awesome.
Steve
Steve,
You are very insightful with that comment; as recently as yesterday I found myself removing the first bit of rigging from the cabanes to go back and do it right. (Reading the instructions correctly always helps.........) Not the first time on this little project either! They are very decent Kits though, especially given their age.
Cheers,
Lance
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I had missed some of the updates Lance, so have just caught up. Oh my you are making an old kit into a real gem of a model. So colourful too.
PS: reading the instructions before carrying out a construction sequence was always something that I found difficult...
Stephen.
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Many thanks for your kind comments Stephen. I'm afraid I've lost the original aim of a detailed Build Log on this one, in fact I finished it today without any updates in the past 10-14 days!
Despite a release date of slightly less then 60 years ago the Kit proved quite good and can be built into a very respectable model. With the exception of a Scratch Built cockpit the model was very much OOB, and I'm mainly pleased with the results.
(https://i.imgur.com/EnKWcU6.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Git90bl.jpg)
The rigging was done with fairly thick 10 lb. test mono in lieu of the stainless wire I normally use on these subjects. In retrospect I'll go back to using the wire in future.
(https://i.imgur.com/fd66Zq5.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/0EFwSgs.jpg)
All of my "Yellow Wings" subjects are done in Museum like finish, clean with little to no weathering. On this one I added a very small amount of dirt to the Landing gear and tires only.
(https://i.imgur.com/ULaUj1t.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/OVqVeqb.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/g3MfNTo.jpg)
Now it's time for the usual cleanup of the bench and some thought on what's next; I'm thinking of a Copper State Nieuport at this early juncture.
Cheers,
Lance
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It looks great. Hard to believe the molds are that old. Nice work!
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It looks great. Hard to believe the molds are that old. Nice work!
Thanks Ken. Monogram upped the game in the early market with models like these in the late 50's/early 60's. I still recall the excitement when, as a youngster, their 1:48 Scale T-28 in bright yellow plastic (with operating landing gear!) appeared on the shelves of our local "5 to a Dollar" store. I missed out until later, the several of our group that got one were the envy of the pack! According to "Scalemates" the molds were still being used over 50 years later when Monogram released their last version under their name and then Revell released a "Flying Bulls" version in 2013.
Cheers,
Lance
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Looks great with some special light reflexes on the pictures.
Very nice color shade selections.
Start the engine please! One wants to fly away with it :)
Cheers,
Frank
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Yes I agree with Frank - I would like you to start the engine so that you can give us a demonstration flight!
Super finish Lance, and very difficult to believe that the moulds are so old. Just shows what a master-modeller can do with an old kit. A very worthy addition to your superb collection.
Stephen.
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Beautiful result Lance. Your finish is superb! The age of this kit doesn’t show at all in your final product. Very nicely done!
Best,
Bob
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Frank, Stephen, and Bob,
Many Thanks for your very generous and kind words. In lieu of a demo flight here's a very short video from You Tube, I think the engine sounds are even better then the pictures! Looks like a fun machine, and sounds better!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm35sQLIkY8
Cheers,
Lance
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Wow Lance, WHAT A SOUND!
There is no substitute for cubic inches, except more cubic inches.
Cheers,
Frank
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A really great model, Lance! Lovely build which brings that very old kit up to modern standards!
Andreas
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Thanks for your comment Andreas, much appreciated!
Glad you liked the "sound" clip Frank, it is well tuned to the "adrenaline pump" in our makeup!
Cheers,
Lance
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Another winner from your bench Lance !
Alexis
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Thanks Alexis, I hope all's going well for you!
Cheers,
Lance
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That is awesome!
I think that would great next to an F4F, too!
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Lance, as with all of your models I'm immensely impressed with your finished aircraft here. Beautiful subject and skillfully crafted into a masterpiece. I love those inter-war colours. Something I'm sure you can sit and admire whilst sipping a brandy :) Our collections grow as we await a quiet spell when we can again meet.
Cheers,
Gary
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What a great build, Lance! You used the word "respectable" for this model, but it is quite stunning! The finished result is superb, and shows just what can be done with these old moulds! Thank you for the explanations and an enjoyable thread! Marc.
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Thanks everyone for commenting!. Jeroen, Marc, much appreciated I can assure you! Gary, Yes, been a long haul since Nanton over two years ago, who would have thought this ordeal would go on this long ........... and still/yet again??
Cheers,
Lance
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Great results on this vintage kit, Lance. Congratulations!
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Nice model, Lance. Some real modelling!
Sandy
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Prze, Sandy, many sincere thanks, adds to the enjoyment!
Cheers,
Lance
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I really need to visit this section more often. I've missed an absolute gem here. That is such a beautiful finish, I love the US colour schemes from this period. It looks utterly perfect!
Richie
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Thanks very much Richie; those yellow Wings schemes are indeed hard to not like!
Cheers,
Lance