forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com
WW1 Aircraft Modeling => Under Construction => Topic started by: Old Man on July 31, 2020, 06:24:53 AM
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Looking through the shelves after finishing the Junkers, I happened on this:
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_0747r.jpg)
I thought it would be nice to build it, after it had waited so long. I toyed with the idea of doing it as a sort of 'retro build', matched to the Harleyford drawings that were current when this kit came out, but since I did want to do an early example at Verdun, and found the case made for a yellowed linen appearance in an older thread preserved over at the Aerodrome convincing, I decided that since such a finish would go against familiar grain, it would be only right to follow in the footsteps of our IanB and bring the old thing up to scratch.
https://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2230
https://forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com/index.php?topic=6965.msg127967#msg127967
However, in looking through the Windsock, I looked closely at the revised drafting for the Roland D.I at its closing, and was struck by how various portions of the C.II fuselage pieces matched up to portions of the D.I profile.
Since I had in hand a second Airfix C.II kit, of much more recent vintage:
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_0754r.jpg)
I decided it would be possible to make a D.I fuselage out of its C.II fuselage. Whatever difficulties presented themselves would fall short of those presented by crafting such a rounded fuselage from sheet. I felt like setting to some major plastic surgery, and pitched right in to this.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_0768r.jpg)
With the aid of a fortuitously sized strip come on amid a box of scrap, the first step was to get everything plugged:
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_0770r.jpg)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_0772r.jpg)
Then smoothed down:
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_0774r.jpg)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_0776r.jpg)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_0777r.jpg)
The observer's hatch is not filled in because the observer's cockpit is to be sawn out.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_0780r.jpg)
Taking out the observer's cockpit opens a gap of eleven or twelve millimeters, and the fuselage should by the drawings only be shortened by some 8mm. The difference is made up with strips of 1mm sheet, again plucked from the scrap.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_0785r.jpg)
Here the halves are tacked together for mutual shaping by 'salon sticks':
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/dd447/vieuxhomme/IMG_0782r.jpg)
Penciled mark indicates likely location of the pilot's cockpit.
Not only will this have to be opened, but arrangements for attaching the wings prepared. The upper wing's location is pretty close to where the C.II's attaches, but the lower wing is directly below it, not staggered back. At this point the nose is a whole separate animacule, that can be dealt with at leisure.
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An outstanding start to an ambitious project! Makes me wish I had a WNW CII to follow your ideas ;D
RAGIII
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Great work Old Man! I am looking forward to seeing how you tackle this one - I have the 1/48 Eduard Roland C.II and 1/48 Hi Tech Roland D.II in my stash for just such a conversion, once I get brave enough :)
Cheers,
BC
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Something completely different and some "real modelling" to add to the excitement! I'll enjoy following this one OM, I hope you enjoy it as much as I know we all will!
Cheers,
Lance
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Excellent project, and not a little scary that you post this now as only yesterday I had my Merlin Roland D.II kit out and was strongly considering making it my next build!
It's actually a very nice little kit, despite the fact it's Merlin. Definitely one of their best!
Ian
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Off to a great start on the conversion , not a subject often modelled so will be following along as you progress with the build :)
Terri
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Good to see a conversion in progress. I startedmy deviation from and eventual abandonment of kits via the conversion route. They offer so many possibilities that I could easily return to the genre.
Stephen.
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I love these old poly bagged Airfix kits. Especially when they are given such skillful treatment. Very much looking forward to seeing this unfold.
Richie
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Thank you all for your kind comments and interest in this project. It will be still a week or two before I can get back to the bench (no problem, nothing dire) but I am certainly looking forward to it
Great work Old Man! I am looking forward to seeing how you tackle this one - I have the 1/48 Eduard Roland C.II and 1/48 Hi Tech Roland D.II in my stash for just such a conversion, once I get brave enough :)
Cheers,
BC
Sounds quite do-able, Sir. Hope to see you manage it. If I were doing this again, which I doubt I will, I expect I would not 'plug' the notch for the upper wing, but rather extend it a bit back on the fuselage pieces. I will have to re-open such a notch, as a centerpiece is needed for the upper wing particularly. Angle its edges right, and the wing panels from the kit can be attached. Their chord is close enough, by the drawings, and correcting the tips and adjusting span won't be much work. The lower would still need filling, as the D.I had unstaggered wings.
Excellent project, and not a little scary that you post this now as only yesterday I had my Merlin Roland D.II kit out and was strongly considering making it my next build!
It's actually a very nice little kit, despite the fact it's Merlin. Definitely one of their best!
Ian
Hope you proceed with it, Sir. That is a particularly interesting machine. I have not been able to figure out how to blend that 'keel' cabane into any fuselage yet. Converting to a D.I is something I sort of stumbled into from looking at the drawings. I have never actually held one of the legendary Merlins, but I do have a VeeDay Flycatcher somewhere on the shelves.
Off to a great start on the conversion , not a subject often modelled so will be following along as you progress with the build :)
Terri
I do like the odd ducks, Ma'am. The competitors of the Albatros have long intrigued me, one early scartch-build I never completed quite was a Fokker D.I. This Roland D.I is sort of an also-ran that never really was. They might have got a bit better notice if production hadn't been delayed by the Roland factory catching fire while the first batch was being assembled, but it was a flawed design. A few made it to the front, however, and photographs of two with Jasta 5 at the start of 1917 are in the Windsock D.II number. In a nose-down posture these often assumed on landing, spinners in the snow....
Good to see a conversion in progress. I startedmy deviation from and eventual abandonment of kits via the conversion route. They offer so many possibilities that I could easily return to the genre.
Stephen.
I recall some of the extreme conversion you made, Sir. Most impressive. The 'El Sonora' build is enough scratchbuilding for me just now. That is so delicate I have a yen for something solid and some serious hack and hew. This build certainly has that in abundance. I have a few other conversion in mind, most reasonably simple (an Avro 504C from an Airfix 504K, for example, or a Fokker E.I from an Eduard E.III), but others fairly extreme, such as using an E.III fuselage as a step up towards a Fokker D.II. That would need scratch-built wings, of course....
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How's the progress coming along ?
Terri
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Pure "old days modeling": excellent start. Looking forward to updates.
Ciao
Giuseppe
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How's the progress coming along ?
Terri
Pure "old days modeling": excellent start. Looking forward to updates.
Ciao
Giuseppe
Thank you for your interest. I have been back at this, and will be posting up progress shortly.
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Starting to grapple with getting wings on.
This is going to require a center section, with an airfoil curve on its upper surface, and flat on the bottom. If I recall the dimensions correctly, the piece is 18mm long, and should be 12mm wide. The blank is at present 14mm wide, as I like to have a little extra when beginning. It is made from a reasonably sized piece of 2mm sheet out of one of my scrap boxes, and the extra bits left can be seen in the pictures.
To fit it, I have had to sand down all my patchings on the upper forward fuselage. I had a cockpit opening in, but the front of it had to go. If I had thought at the start about how best to fit the wings, I would have skipped all my patching, and putting in a cockpit opening, and simply sanded the area down, but sometimes it is best to just pile in and get going. I don't consider the original work a waste: I enjoyed doing it a good deal, and learned how brittle the plastic in this kit is.
What you see below is not assembled, but simply tacked together with tiny dabs of CA. It holds well enough for test-fit and study, but can be popped apart easily.
(https://i.imgur.com/fbGUa0J.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/RIHvyfC.jpg)
Here are a couple more shots, showing the upper wing piece corrected at the tips, to proper rake and straight trailing edge ailerons. Note the center section piece is concave on its interior face --- this may need to be made more pronounced at the front and rear. The plan is to cut the outer panels off the kit wing, and join these to the center section piece, a la Roden Albatros upper wing arrangements. The shortened span will let me make the cut outside the cut-out of the kit's piece. There will need to be a slight angle at the root end of the panels, as the wings of the Roland D.I have a slight sweepback. Taking down the over-done scalloping on the trailing edge will get me the right chord.
(https://i.imgur.com/kVwOlBC.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/KoN8Qfh.jpg)
Next I am going to figure just where the center panel needs to go, which will require 'sighting in' with the motor (from a Roden spare). Four cylinders should be visible in plan view (as opposed to five for the C.II). It may be necessary to move the cockpit opening forward a tad.
When I get to doing ribs for this, the C.II will be begun as well.
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Excellent and very helpful description of your methods and problems overcome - really useful for anyone else who wants to attempt this. Two conversions running simultaneously should be even more interesting.
Stephen.
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All I can say is your work is looking Awesome! Nice idea for the wing mounting section!
RAGIII
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All I got right now is thumbs up ! You have a sound plan for moving forward , looking forward on the next up-date .
Terri
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Looking very nice so far. Thanks for the detailed explanation of the alterations too
Ian
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Quite an extensive looking conversion. Nice work going on.
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Thank you all very much for your kind comments, and interest in the effort.
A bit more done here, small but important. The 'cowling' on the D.I rises more steeply than on the C.II, and its opening is differently shaped, by drawings and more importantly, the that of the kit pieces. This was done by extending the opening to the very front, placing a small piece of card there, bent to an initial curve, placed at a steeper angle. Once the front half circle was cut out, the kit's opening was made regular, and further card added. I popped thing open, tacked the engine in and re-closed. I think there will have to be a bit at the leading edge of the center section before I am through, but figure I should leave that till the fuselage is assembled.
(https://i.imgur.com/BTfLwCM.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/1NDzzGx.jpg)
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Continuing to impress!
RAGIII
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Shaping up nicely Oldman !
Nice nose job ;) heheheheeee
Terri
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Shaping up nicely Oldman !
Nice nose job ;) heheheheeee
Terri
Quite the plastic surgeon then?! ::) ;D
Impressive work!
/Fredrik
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Continuing to impress!
RAGIII
Shaping up nicely Oldman !
Nice nose job ;) heheheheeee
Terri
Quite the plastic surgeon then?! ::) ;D
Impressive work!
/Fredrik
Thanks a lot, guys! This is involving a bit more than I imagined it might.
Once I started seriously looking at it, it was clear the lower wing was going to need a center section as well, and that it would need to be a duzy. So good intentions regarding the wing panels went by the way, and I turned to the center of the lower wings. Not only must the curves of the belly continue, but there is small but distinct 'gull' to the lower wing root fillets. From very front to very rear of the fillets is a millimeter or so shy of an inch.
Here is the open gap in the belly:
(https://i.imgur.com/ku70VTL.jpg)
While putting this in, the brittle plastic cracked towards the rear, necessitating some patching with curved sheet.
The piece at the top in shadow shows the cnter section shape shape better than the working piece does under the flash. The piece in shadow became a 'proof of concept' piece because I got a little carried away putting the fillet curves in, so that the actual mating surface for the panels is a bit short of chord. The working piece started as a bit of 3mm sheet, 12mm x 24mm. From this was removed everything but the shape I wanted, with a curved blade and heavy grit emery mostly, but here and there a needle file. The belly was shaped first in a 'channel', then the 'gull' extracted from what was left.
Here it is in place, with the shy-chord effort, and the upper wing center section in the foreground:
(https://i.imgur.com/3jAAbFg.jpg)
The fillets on the upper wing are much slighter than those on he lower wing, and I had figured they could be done by some liquid filler or other, but I will be looking more closely.
Some adjustment may be needed to get the leading edges of both wings identically placed, but it did not strike my eye till the photograph below....
(https://i.imgur.com/7dU0LQW.jpg)
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Might be a bit more then you imaged , but you are doing a excellent job on making those changes to the fuselage :)
Terri
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In spite of the unexpected challenges you are making great progress! Once this stage is past it will be Smooth Sailing ::)
RAGIII
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Might be a bit more then you imaged , but you are doing a excellent job on making those changes to the fuselage :)
Terri
Thanks, Terri. I do tend to plunge into these things without a lot of planning, just a conviction it can be done. I just sort of assumed I could attach the lower wings with a contoured mating surface and some filler. The gull was a nice challenge, and I like how its coming on. It will get slimmed down a bit more here and there.
In spite of the unexpected challenges you are making great progress! Once this stage is past it will be Smooth Sailing ::)
RAGIII
Thank you, Sir. At this point I really need to stop putting off the chore of dealing with the wing panels. I have to have them attached to the center sections to do the likely bits of fettling necessary to get them to stack right above one another when attached to the fuselage.
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I am like you OM: I too rush into a project thinking that all will be fine....until it isn't! However with your skill anything is possible - just takes a little longer that is all.
Super work on the underside of the lower wing - a challenge but one which I too would enjoy.
Stephen.
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It's never as straight forward as we hope it will be, but that's part of the challenge. You're rising to that challenge and the way it's going this is going to be a beauty!
Ian
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I am like you OM: I too rush into a project thinking that all will be fine....until it isn't! However with your skill anything is possible - just takes a little longer that is all.
Super work on the underside of the lower wing - a challenge but one which I too would enjoy.
Stephen.
Thank you. It is a tricky shape, but it was fun to do.
It's never as straight forward as we hope it will be, but that's part of the challenge. You're rising to that challenge and the way it's going this is going to be a beauty!
Ian
Thank you. It's the improvisation that makes it fun. As the man said, no plane survives contact with the enemy....
Well, I have finally buckled down to the chore of dealing with the wing panels. I will be getting back to 'El Sonora', and in somewhat the same vein, but the general madness has been too distracting lately to keep my mind clear for the numbers juggling needed for making the pieces that project now needs.
Here is a look, courtesy of a nose-over, at what the wings looked like:
(https://i.imgur.com/zXBpEkQ.png)
The 'half-ribs' (actually more 2/3rds ribs) do show, but not definitely in some instances. The Windsock drawing indicates tapes on the full ribs.
To indicate tapes, I am scribing in their 'borders', a technique I used a while back on this model:
(https://i.imgur.com/IG5iN9H.jpg)
By happy chance, the portions of the C.II kit's wings outboard of the center sections are just about the right size for the wing panels of the D.I.
Here is the first step:
(https://i.imgur.com/FS7DQJp.jpg)
The far piece has just been smoothed down. On the near pieces, the port panel has ribs and short ribs laid down with pencil, while on the starboard panel, the 'plane' has been broken between the full ribs and short ribs, by scraping with a curved blade and use of emery 'salon board' tips.
Here you can see the next stages on the upper surface of the panels:
(https://i.imgur.com/FDHW8ev.jpg)
The near piece shows the scribing of the tape borders. I use a flexible piece of thin plastic to guide a needle in a pin-vise for several scrapes, then use that as a guide for a #11 blade with its tip broken off, to give a chisel front, with which the lines are deepened. All on one 'side' of the tapes on a panel are put in, then the other 'side' is done, with the guide positioned so the earlier line can be seen, and tge Mk. I eyeball has a chance to get widths more or less regular. Each single step is not particularly difficult, but there are an awful lot of them, and that's what makes it a chore. The upper piece shows what ithe fully scribed surface looks like after a first spray of primer. There will be more primer when the separated panels are fixed to the center sections, and then brushed paint, so everything will be a bit less prominent once completed.
Here are the undersurfaces, at the same stage:
(https://i.imgur.com/hYNqp84.jpg)
The somewhat distressed surface of the primed panel on the right (actually a port undersurface) reflects the difficulty one may encounter when a better way to do something comes to mind in the middle of a project. On the upper surface, the presence of a detectable 'ridge' helped keep the scribings narrow and regular. On the undersurface, there is no need to 'break the plane', and lines can be be scribed in directly after layout in pencil. Going for both sides of the drawn line did not give me results I was too happy with on that panel to the upper right, and going to the next panel it occurred to me I could, after scribing in one 'side' of the tapes, rub a lot of pencil onto the panel, then wipe it all down with a lick of spit on a fingertip (The more fastidious may employ damp paper towel or cloth). Doing this leaves the scribed line full of graphite, and starkly visible, so when doing the other 'side', it is easy to see the width being scored. Filling in the scribing on that first panel, and going over it again with the new technique improved things somewhat, but I am not too happy with it even so. I am going to live with it, though, because I suspect further efforts at repair will only do damage --- the wing pieces are pretty thin, and I would not put it past this brittle plastic to snap while being scored if it is abraded down too thin.
So the next step will be getting the panels on the center sections, so final placement of the wings to the fuselage can be gauged. There is no stagger, positions of leading edges have to match. Some small scalloping must go in at the trailing edges, and the panels chosen for the lower wing have to have their tips trimmed back by one rib, as the lower wing had a slightly shorter span. I expect the piece with the substandard panel will provide the makings for the lower wing,
The great chore, however, is out of the way....
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Wings are coming along super Oldman . Bit of work but I do like your method on scribing the rib tapes for this scale , very effective .
Looking forward on the next up-date :)
Terri
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The center panel and wings are looking great! Nice work on the scribing of the rib tape lines.
RAGIII
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My that did read as a chore... But then wing ribs on scratch builds/conversions are one of the most boring parts. You have made a first class job of them though - and I am sure that you are pleased that that stage is now behind you.
Stephen.
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Wings are coming along super Oldman . Bit of work but I do like your method on scribing the rib tapes for this scale , very effective .
Looking forward on the next up-date :)
Terri
The center panel and wings are looking great! Nice work on the scribing of the rib tape lines.
RAGIII
My that did read as a chore... But then wing ribs on scratch builds/conversions are one of the most boring parts. You have made a first class job of them though - and I am sure that you are pleased that that stage is now behind you.
Stephen.
Thanks a lot, guys!
What suggested this method first to me, on the 'Bullet' was that photographs showed unusually wide tapes, wider than the 1/64" (0.4mm) tape I use. By the time I am done sanding and 'leveling up with successive coats of primer, the tape really does not stand up appreciably from the surface, But of course just about height is 'too much' in 1/72.
The scribing is more work, though it takes less time. The tape method involves sealing with Future, which must dry, several coats of spray primer, which must dry so the tapes can be sanded bare again. Applying the tape is a good deal easier that the scribing in parallel. The tape width scales out to about an inch and an eighth, or a hair under three centimeters, which I do not think over-scale for the purpose. The thing about the scribing is that while each single operation is simple, there are a great many of them, and all must more or less match. As Lenin said in quite another context 'Quantity has a quality all its own," and the sheer volume of repetitions provides some difficulty that looking at each operation singly tends to conceal. I have seen 1/48 modellers use two No. 11 blades soldered or glued together to cut precise 1/32" strips of decal film for rib tapes, but that is as narrow as the method can contrive. It would be nice to have a doubled blade with points separated by a half millimeter or so....
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The kit designer would never have dreamed what great things you can do with his product :D
Great conversion project! A conversion, additionally in that small scale, play in it's own league - well done so far.
Cheers,
Frank