forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com
WW1 Aircraft Modeling => Under Construction => Scratch builds => Topic started by: Brad Cancian on August 11, 2019, 06:03:58 PM
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Hi all - for quite some time, I've wanted to do a 'skeletal' scratch build, i.e. build an aircraft with the 'fabric off', so to speak, in my favourite scale of 1/48. I've recently ventured my first steps into this scratch build subject - a scratch built 1/48 Morane Saulnier Type L parasol. I selected this aircraft as my first attempt as it was a relatively simple aircraft, and would allow me to practice some techniques before I tackled something more complex.
What has stopped me to date has been the ability to consistently produce wing ribs - I've tried a few methods in the deep dark past, but nothing really worked. For the last year or so, I've been using a small plotter / cutter to cut painting masks, and a week or so ago I decided to see if I could cut thin (0.010") plastic with it. After fiddling with a few settings, I worked out that I could cut the plastic sufficiently to make such a project at least a little viable. So armed with the Windsock Datafile, I went to work.
The first step was to draw up the wing rib profile. I had no data on the wing construction, other than the profile in the data file, and a few pictures which suggested some of the structure. So I made up something that at least looked plausible. The profile had to be a little thicker than in reality, to account for the brass strip that I had available to use as spars, but the approximation was good enough. Here was step 1:
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Morane%20Saulnier%20L/SBMSL01_zpsoi0o7jwz.jpg)
Next came lots of copying and pasting, and some more adjustments, to come up with the full 'suite' of ribs. Again, I had to make some guesses as to the structure.
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Morane%20Saulnier%20L/SBMSL02_zpswheebpxg.jpg)
After 45 minutes or so of cutting the 0.010" plastic, my plotter produced this:
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Morane%20Saulnier%20L/SBMSL03_zpson2x5nmi.jpg)
As the plotter couldn't quite cut through the full depth of plastic, lots of prying, scoring, and general mucking about produced the wing rib profiles I needed. Unfortunately, being so thin, the ribs were very bendy. I thus added spar caps using 0.010" x 0.030" strips; these helped to 'straighten' the ribs:
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Morane%20Saulnier%20L/SBMSL04_zpsapwcwzzw.jpg)
Next I bent up some wire to replicate the leading and trailing edge wires using the datafile as a guide, leaving a little extra as the wing 'droops' so much in profile:
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Morane%20Saulnier%20L/SBMSL05_zpsfvj0wfy1.jpg)
I then added spars from brass strip for long term rigidity, and started to 'thread' the ribs over the spars and securing them at the spacing as per the datafile:
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Morane%20Saulnier%20L/SBMSL06_zpss8x7usxr.jpg)
Sub-spars were then added, and here is where the wing currently is at:
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Morane%20Saulnier%20L/SBMSL07_zps33vvpmrr.jpg)
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Morane%20Saulnier%20L/SBMSL08_zpsfxvs2fbo.jpg)
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Morane%20Saulnier%20L/SBMSL10_zpsw8n3u5bv.jpg)
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Morane%20Saulnier%20L/SBMSL09_zps5hi2ospu.jpg)
There's still some clean up to do, and more details to add, but the basic structure is now there. It is surprisingly sturdy (and lightweight). I'm reasonably happy with this as my first attempt. Now that i've done this, no doubt someone will post plenty of pictures to tell me how wrong I got it, but oh well...!
Next will be tackling the major fuselage frames - I just need to get hold of the right kind of brass strip, at which point, i'll try my hand at a little bit of soldering...
All feedback / comments / tips for improvement most welcome!
Cheers,
BC
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Brilliant, I love the sort of inventiveness you're showing here.
And the Morane L is one of my favourite subjects too, lots of history to it. Not to mention its Thulin and Pfalz derivatives.
Have you been following the construction of the replica in France? They've posted a lot of pictures on Facebook, at any rate; if you haven't seen them, they might answer some of your questions.
Looking forward to following progress on this :)
Mark
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Hi
Apologies if you're already up to speed on this: if you haven't seen it, search on Facebook for 'La construction de la réplique du Morane-Saulnier Type L'
Otherwise try https://www.facebook.com/MS.TypeL/
Cheers
Mark
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You are defendly off to an excellent start Brad , wing is looking excellent so far . With the brass spars you shouldn't have any twisting or warping in the future . Looking forward on following along as you progress on this project .
Terri
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Great work, Brad
I was inspired by the section that you posted last week, so i am waiting for the new Silhouette 4 touching the market :D
This work is even more impressive
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I made a partial stripdown Gunbus earlier and used thicker strip which I cut by hand for the ribs as I thought that 10 thou card would be too thin. However the brass strip for ribs is an excellent idea - I used brass bar for the two spars on my wings - and like you I also used wire for the trailing edge. The wing structure should be strong - mine are.
Best of luck with soldering the fuselage frame - not as difficult as it seems once you have soldered a couple of joints.
Stephen.
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Blimey,
That’s amazing Brad! Looks fabulous!
Guy
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Thanks everyone!
Thanks for the links to the replica build Mark, much appreciated! It looks like I got some basic right, maybe... I wonder how accurate their rib patterns are? It's always tricky with replicas, especially flying ones - more contemporary techniques or patterns are used for things that will sit behind canvas covering... certainly their fuselage structure is very different from the examination of original photos in the datafile. Photos of wings in the datafile with the sun shining through them shows that at least a number of early Morane Ls had a supplemental spar behind the rear main spar, and one between the two main spars (the replica seems to omit the supplemental spar between the main spars). Some early prototypes seem to have two supplemental spars between the main spars as well as the supplemental spar behind the rear main spar. So it's all a bit of a guessing game...! :o
Cheers again ;D
BC
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Very impressive start, Brad. I think with scratchbuilding there are no 'wrong' ways of doing things, only 'easier'. :)
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Your skills are incredible Brad! That wing is pure Magic!!
RAGIII
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As the plotter couldn't quite cut through the full depth of plastic ... . I thus added spar caps using 0.010" x 0.030" strips; these helped to 'straighten' the ribs ... .
Both my Silhouette Portrait (which I think you have), and my Silhouette Curio cut .010 cleanly. I played with cutting speed and "Force" to get it right. The plastic is nothing out of the ordinary, so don't know if other plastic may be harder. If you want some settings to try, PM me.
If you double up (laminate) the ribs, they will be stronger (says Capt Obvious). :-[
Very impressive what you've done with the wings!!
Gene K
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Some minor progress - I now have a fuselage skeleton.
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Morane%20Saulnier%20L/SBMSL11_zpsmlfqkoxk.jpg)
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Morane%20Saulnier%20L/SBMSL12_zpsbm0qhipa.jpg)
It was made with 0.075" strip (as I couldn't find brass square thin enough), using the datafile plans and a photo of a stripped down fuselage included therein as a guide. It's a simple structure so it didn't take me too long to piece together. I added some slots at the top of the struts to hold the main spar, which works quite nicely - I think I need to deepen the hole for the rear attachment however.
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Morane%20Saulnier%20L/SBMSL13_zpsgpf7s5hd.jpg)
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Morane%20Saulnier%20L/SBMSL14_zpsumqosbg1.jpg)
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Morane%20Saulnier%20L/SBMSL15_zpsmncprsgp.jpg)
It's all a bit fragile, but should be a bit more solid once the internal bits and bobs go in. Thankfully the lightness of the top wing should assist. I think i'll need to go with some sturdy undercarriage, however...
Cheers,
BC
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That looks amazing Brad, just jaw-droppingly spectacular. It's always wonderful to see the amazing talent displayed by Forum members.
cheers
Dave Wilson
Gold Coast
Australia
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Brilliant Modeling Brad! The wing looks great resting on the fuselage!
RAGIII
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That is technically very well done!! Looks very sound. I'm guessing the u/c will be brass for the strength needed for the combined wing/fuselage etc
Steve
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That is super! My experience with the Gunbus is that you will need brass for the u/c - I had problems with weight with mine and I am sure you will too even though the wing is an open structure. I am really enjoying this build - something very different.
Stephen.
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I have always been an admirer of your work, Brad, but with this one, you've gone beyond anything I've ever seen you do. Truly remarkable!
Cheers
Bud
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Thanks everyone!
Indeed I'll use something sturdy for the undercarriage - I have the Eduard kit winging its way over to me as we speak, so I may end up borrowing the etched undercarriage from that, or at least using it as a template for something else.
Anyways, some more very minor progress - an elevator has magically appeared!
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Morane%20Saulnier%20L/SBMSL16_zps9kxq4xuj.jpg)
I am thinking I might have the rudder with the 'skin on', to show the French colours and add a splash of colour (as everything else will be wood and metal)... thoughts?
Cheers
BC
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(a) Brilliant build (b) I would vote for some partial skinning with some colour.
Cheers Matt
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Coming together in spectacular fashion Brad, very nice thus far. I agree, a little fabric to provide some color and contrast is a great idea!
Cheers,
Lance
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Looking great Brat. Cannot wrap my head around the fact that it is 1/48 (mind blown).
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Hi everyone - another minor update - just for fun, I made my first attempt at making my own spoked wheels. This was the first time i'd tried it so it was a little daunting. Here it is, currently unpainted:
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Morane%20Saulnier%20L/SBMSL17_zpsveycvaa2.jpg)
I started with kit wheels from the Eduard Albatros D.III - these wheels are very undersized for the Ablatros but are spot on for the Morane. I drilled out the centre, drilled some holes around the rim, then used monofilament to thread the spokes. I am not sure if this is the best material as it's stiff and bows easily, especially around the holes for the spokes. It's tricky to get the treading started and the hub centralised but once ~8-10 spokes are in place it gets a little easier... I learned the hard way when I got halfway through and realised i'd gotten it wrong, and had to undo it all... :-[
It's not great, but ok for a first try, and I think it will look better than using etched spokes. I'll try to fill or smooth those spoke holes so they will hopefully not be so obvious under a layer or two of paint.
Now that i've worked out roughly how to do it, I now need to do the second wheel... :o
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Morane%20Saulnier%20L/SBMSL18_zpsf9fyhg4p.jpg)
Cheers,
BC
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What a nice project! So you switched very fast from the first ideas into a real strip down model.
And great, that you found some small brass profiles usable as spares.
Cheers,
Frank
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The wheel spokes look great Brad. First Try? Damn!
RAGIII
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Those spoked wheels look very acceptable to me - and for a first effort I can only write many congratulations - much better than mine!
I would suggest brass rod for the undercarriage rather than photo etch as I think that the latter may not be strong enough - only a suggestion.
Stephen.
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Thanks gents. I now have done the second wheel and I have finished the main undercarriage.
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Morane%20Saulnier%20L/SBMSL21_zpsvaqo7jeq.jpg)
The undercarriage legs are the etched legs from the Eduard kit, reinforced with sanded down plastic struts. This adds some strength and helps get rid of the 'flat' look of the Eduard legs.
I had to do the second wheel on the same axle as the first, as I was too afraid to slide the first wheel off the axle in case it turned into a mess of spokes. Because of this approach, I had to slide the undercarriage legs on first, then work around the three main leg pieces and the first wheel. Thankfully my pet spider behaved and had no problems threading the second wheel. That's why I made sure the axle was quite long - it allowed me to slide things around, including the first wheel. I'll keep the axle long and the wheels free to move for the time being, as this will help with painting (and any final adjustments). Here are some more pictures of the undercarriage very loosely (and crookedly) taped to the fuselage:
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Morane%20Saulnier%20L/SBMSL19_zpsnkidfwpt.jpg)
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Morane%20Saulnier%20L/SBMSL20_zpsmhapicug.jpg)
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Morane%20Saulnier%20L/SBMSL22_zpsa36kd0bq.jpg)
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Morane%20Saulnier%20L/SBMSL23_zpsakcwv0r0.jpg)
I now have all of the major structural components completed, save the rudder, which I will likely steal from the kit. The project is now very viable.
That's the last update for a while on this one - tomorrow I go overseas on holidays for two months. Glad I made it this far before I left.
Cheers and see you all on the other side!
BC
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Incredible work as always Brad! enjoy your Holidays!
RAGIII
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Excellent engineering again!!
Steve
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Scratchy Tastic Brad!
Very well done :)
vB
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This is looking good, Brad. Great scratchbuilding.
Don't forget to paint it!
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Great work, Brad. I wish you a very nice (2 month!!!) holiday.
Bye,
Manni
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Shaping up very nicely Brad 8)
Terri
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Simply beautiful :D
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What became of this project Brad? I stumbled across this while contemplating something similar.
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Hi Richie, apologies for the very delayed response; I was prompted to remember this build when thinking about the reason it stalled; I was just never really happy with the wheels. I'd love to find a way to make these in 1/48 without them looking rubbish, or needing some kind of degree in micro-surgery and a laboratory full of tools and equipment.
Does anyone have any methods or techniques that they can point me to? I'd love to re-pick up this build, given the effort made so far...
Cheers!
BC
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Brad,
These may be an option for you. I’m not sure if the wheel size is correct though.
https://www.gaspatchmodels.com/products/palmer-700x75-spoked-wheels-1-48.html
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Fascinating project, producing a stunning model. Use of the cutting plotter to produce spars was brilliant.
Ciao
Giuseppe
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Maybe this method will be usefull ;)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1S4I49nQoHMk6ZjkFPR608aUkHQMJSy-I/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1S4I49nQoHMk6ZjkFPR608aUkHQMJSy-I/view?usp=sharing)
Prepared by Arek Chmiel. Sorry for translate - automat.
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Hi Brad,
I hope you find a method for completing the wheels. I'd love to see this finished!
Richie
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How could I have missed this?
Beautiful work and great craftmanship Brad!
The ribs are very convincing. If you hadn't told us, no one but you would know that you "designed" them yourself.
Stunning work overall!
Willem