forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com
Forum Archive Storage => Des Delatorre International Memorial Group Build => Topic started by: Brad Cancian on June 10, 2019, 07:36:08 PM
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Hi all - up front, please pardon my terrible Italian (despite my Italian heritage I don't know the language)...! I need a quick build to try and finish more than one model for the group build, so with only 6-7 weeks left, I searched through the stash for something relatively quick (i.e. not complex) and I dug this one out:
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Caproni%20Ca20/CA2001_zps1zylbcaf.jpg)
I think it probably fits in with Des' love of the obscure :)
The Caproni Ca.20 is considered the first true fighter plane, and was (apparently) the first to mount a machine gun (in this case a Lewis gun) over the propeller arc, aligned with the line of flight (making shooting relatively easy). There was only one prototype, flown in 1914. It was evaluated and apparently performed quite well, being faster than contemporary German and Austrian designs. The aircraft was not put into production by the Italian military, as they wanted Caproni to focus on bombers rather than fighters - imagine what could have been if it had gone into production...
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Caproni%20Ca20/ca20-4_zps564fx3ip.jpg)
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Caproni%20Ca20/the-flighter-monoplane-caproni-ca20-HKDBME_zps9cjpsnqw.jpg)
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Caproni%20Ca20/ca20-3_zpshvvgoeia.jpg)
The prototype has famously survived in its original condition and resides in the Seattle Museum of Flight, after the Caproni family kept the aircraft stored away safely in a dry environment for 85 years - http://www.museumofflight.org/aircraft/caproni-ca20
There are some interesting things to note when viewing contemporary photographs versus the preserved prototype - the aircraft was clearly modified at some point. The cheek panels were removed at some stage, and ailerons added. The spinner also looks to have had some fairings added over the propeller blades. The kit looks to represent the earlier version of the aircraft, with metal cheek panels, no ailerons, and no fairings over the propeller blades. I intend to model this earlier aircraft (as Spin Models have done).
This kit is by Spin Models and is limited run. There is lots of flash and clean up needed, as well as quite a few bubbles to deal with all over the air-frame. Nothing too difficult for someone who has a couple of limited run resin kits under their belt. That being said, there is some nice finesse in the representation of the fabric and cowling louvres.
So far progress has been limited to cleaning up of the major air frame components, and starting on the cockpit. The kit comes with some nice rib detail on the interior (sadly marred by lots of bubbles), but the rest of the details are relatively sparse. There are no photos of the general interior arrangement that I could find, so I made up some structure to supplement that in the kit. I also borrowed a CMK resin wicker chair. There's a decent opening behind the seat which i'll fill with structure and bracing wires.
The kit instrument panel looks like a flat board with two lewis gun drums mounted on it; I think that this is probably speculative. The one photograph of the instrument panel shows some instruments, a compass, and a map board (probably of the later machine, but better than nothing as a reference), but no sign of lewis drums. I've made a start on this and will add the instruments and compass once some paint is on.
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Caproni%20Ca20/Capture_zpsts5hmbsy.jpg)
The next logical spot for additional lewis drums is the cockpit floor, so I made a couple of bins in which to place some drums (I figured there wouldn't be too many drums as weight would have been critical this early on).
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Caproni%20Ca20/CA2002_zpse3maisf3.jpg)
With the fuselage and spinner cleaned up, it doesn't take much to see what this little airplane is going to look like:
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Caproni%20Ca20/CA2003_zpsnlhoeqj6.jpg)
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Caproni%20Ca20/CA2004_zpsrrrhdprf.jpg)
Here's hoping I can get this one done in the next 6-7 weeks before the group build closes... at my galacial pace of building, even something simple will be a challenge to finish!
Cheers,
BC
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Nice start!
I't a great subject, I'll follow ... and your italian it's perfect! Bravo! ;D
Andrew
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Hi Brad!
As italian, I'm happy when someone stars to build one of our a/c!
In an old Windsock International there was a piece about it with scale drawings on the subject. I'm not at home now but if you need I can help late with the right infos.
In fact, the Ca.20 was tested more without the Lewis than with it. It was a better version of the Ca.18, more refined.
Cheers,
Roberto
P.S.:...yes, "Il Primo Combattente" is the right translation for "The First Fighter"!
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You're off to a good start, Brad.
I've built a couple of Spin Model kits (sailplanes) and I haven't found them to be quick or easy!
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Very interesting subject. Looking forward to your progress.
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A project like this one of a lesser known aircraft would be right up Des's alley. Great start and I will be following along as always!
RAGIII
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Nice start on an interesting bird!!
Steve
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Fine start on a really exotic plane, I'm sure this will become a great model and I'm happy to see an Italian subject. The perfect translation of fighter (planes only) is "caccia" (abbreviation of "cacciatore" - hunter) but it's fine as understandable. Looking forward for your build.
Ciao
Giuseppe
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Hi Brad,
this is a copy of the patented system of firing registered by Gianni Caproni.
Hope useful,
Roberto
P.S.: as my italian colleague right pointed out, in Italy we didn't use "Fighter" (combattente) for our single seater airplane, but "hunt" (caccia) as short form of "hunter" (cacciatore).
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...and the right Windsock International is Vol.12 No.2 for the drawings!
Bye,
Roberto
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Very interesting built!
Xan
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Cool !
Terri
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Thanks everyone! Thanks Roberto and Giuseppe for your help with the translation - perhaps I should call this one "Il Primo Caccia"?
Thanks Roberto also for the picture of the gun mechanism patent - most interesting! I note the photographs of the Ca.20 don't show the lower most horizontal tube (with the trigger at the back end); the cockpit on the Ca.20 looks to be forward enough for the vertical trigger tube / cable to have extended into the forward part of the cockpit opening (Spin have their gun set up like this, with the trigger in the cockpit from a vertical tube, rather than outside of it on a horizontal tube). I wonder if the drawing shows a later patent by Caproni?
Does anyone know where I can get hold of a copy of the Windsock International article on the aircraft?
Thanks again!
BC
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Oh, a very interesting thread, since I own that kit too.
Brad, I will watch your progress with great interest!
Cheers,
Frank
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Hi Brad!
My opinion about the patented system for firing is that it was an "early" copyright, abandoned in the "practice field" for more practical system.
For the Windsock International, I don't want to break any copyright rule, but if you don't find an original copy, I may scan something for you.
Cheers,
Roberto
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... perhaps I should call this one "Il Primo Caccia"? ...
BC
It's up to you: being the title of your topic any description fits, but combattente suggests it was operative as a warplane, while caccia, being technical rather then poetic in this case, states the purpose of the project and identifies this as the first of its kind.
But let me congratulate for your approach to Italian, I'm always embarrassed while writing English as I'm not really current (specially speaking) and my usual redings are technical, and so limited in both grammatics and aesthetic, not to mantion local or "living" words and phrases not included in dictionaries.
Best wishes on your build, I'msure will be enjoyable and will make a great model.
Ciao
Giuseppe
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As Italian like Giuseppe, I want to quote 100% his topic. Many times in english books I've noted some errors in using our language to describe our pilots, airfields etc.
Yes, "Il Primo Caccia" sounds better and more correct. But it's up to you!
On the other side, I'm a self-made man as learning english, I ever study french in schools and I know that sometimes I made mistakes in my posts.
So, reading Windsock International, Cross & Cockades and Over the Front during the years was like receiving lessons, specially in technical field.
Cheers,
Roberto
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Thanks Roberto and Giuseppe - I really appreciate your help! I want to get the wording correct as I will likely put the model on a base with a small plaque - I know how bad it can be to get it wrong!
Progress is painfully slow. I've been spending most of the effort at the moment on dealing with the rough exterior surfaces. The fuselage wasn;t too bad, but there were quite a few air bubbles and some roughness around the ribbed areas that I needed to smooth out without ruining the fabric effect (which was a bit tricky...). It's ok under a coat of primer (there is more to clean up but I will do this once the fuselage halves are together).
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Caproni%20Ca20/CA2005_zpsfxvwxrmw.jpg)
The interior is not so great - lots of air bubbles; I've cleaned it up as best I can, but I don't really want to completely rebuild the sidewalls. These should be good enough under a coat of paint, fingers crossed.
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Caproni%20Ca20/CA2006_zpsr0tqz17c.jpg)
The wings, however, were far worse. Very uneven surface detail, poor attempts at ribs, and LOTS of air bubbles and rough patches. I guess that's what you get for a limited run resin kit. I contemplated scratch-building the wings, but I persevered with the kit wings. They are largely smooth now, but with subtle hints of the ribs (which will look good fine a coat of paint). On the positive, they are straight and have very thin trailing edges. I'll take the good with the bad :)
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Caproni%20Ca20/CA2007_zpsvfqp47es.jpg)
Now i'm at the point of putting some paint on the interior.
Cheers,
BC
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Seems to be a challenging kit but I am sure you will persevere!
AGIII
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Brad, very intresting model, indeed "il primo caccia" would be more correct, combattente is fighter as a person "caccia" is the plane... Italian is a very complex language!!!
Beautiful work so far on an awkward kit!
Antonio
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Looking good Brad
Terri
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Fascinating project Brad and a very cool plane the existence of which I knew nothing about until now but I know of Caproni mostly for the wild nine winged Transaereo - the strangest seaplane (or plane for that matter) of all time??? And they seem to have started with just one wing... ::) when everyone else thought two was the minimum required for flight.
I look forward to your progress with interest.
Cheers
Alistair
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Nice start to a tough one
Steve
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Hi Brad,
really nice start! Over a "bubbles" kit. For the interiors, you can also search in internet about the Ca.18 owned by "Volandia" museum here in Italy (next to Malpensa airport, same site were Gianni Caproni started his fantastic history). Remember that Ca.18 and Ca.20 have not ailerons, but they are managed by wingwarping method.
Write to me at [email protected] and I will send you some photos.
Cheers!
Roberto
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Great subject, Brad
I’ve built one from scratch before one was available in resin (you can see it in my avatar)
I will follow with interest
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Some slow progress... cockpit is now done. I scratchbuilt a fuel tank as well. The stringer detail is part of the kit and is quite poorly cast, so don't look too close...
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Caproni%20Ca20/CA2009_zpsyz3ls1qa.jpg)(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Caproni%20Ca20/CA2008_zpsvwkhrghb.jpg)
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Caproni%20Ca20/CA2010_zpssulofjkn.jpg)(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Caproni%20Ca20/CA2013_zpshr3tovwq.jpg)
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Caproni%20Ca20/CA2012_zpsnrf5mrpx.jpg)(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Caproni%20Ca20/CA2011_zpscoflva0p.jpg)
Here's the gun, pieced together from the spares box, plastic rod, foil and various bits of random etch.
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Caproni%20Ca20/CA2015_zpsqvcdxhms.jpg)
Here's an engine - it's not detailed, bit with the spinner on, very little will be seen. This should be enough to give the impression of an engine if anyone tries to look very hard through the cowling vents...
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Caproni%20Ca20/CA2016_zpsm0itbked.jpg)
The fuselage is also now together - the fit was quite poor, so it needed LOTS of filler, but the hard work is now done....
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Caproni%20Ca20/CA2014_zpsalbpzhop.jpg)
It's going to be tight to meet the group build deadline, but I'll come close....!
Cheers,
BC
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Great progress Brad. The interior looks terrific as does the Machine Gun. The engine will certainly fit the role as intended. Looking excellent all buttoned up!
RAGIII
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Very nice interior, Brad. Your scratchbuilding really improves this model immensely.
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Great looking interior! I hope, you will manage it in time 8)
Cheers,
Frank
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Excellent job on the details , like the map case :)
Terri
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Thanks folks! Clean up of the fuselage continues... she now has some legs and feet. The wheels are Eduard after market items. You can get a feel for how squat this little aeroplane is.
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Caproni%20Ca20/CA2017_zpslj2lhmy1.jpg)
Cheers,
BC
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Looking terrific Brad. I was/am not familiar with the aircraft and it is starting to look attractive to me. Just odd enough for WNW to do ;D
RAGIII
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Will agree with Rick , it has have a cerent appeal to the look and shape . Coming along nicely Brad :)
Terri
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Looking terrific Brad. I was/am not familiar with the aircraft and it is starting to look attractive to me. Just odd enough for WNW to do ;D
RAGIII
Sir Peter has the real one on loan in his museum in NZ, so it would not be difficult to make a scale model, even if after WWI the original Caproni Ca.20 underwent some modifications, namely ailerons were added to the wing instead of wingwarping for control.
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Great updates!! Very nice work on the cockpit.
Steve
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Thanks all - I think a 1/32 version of this aircraft could have its merits; especially when you think of the different configurations and at least two different schemes the aircraft wore. Who knows....
In any case, after several sanding sessions, I am comfortable that the little Caproni is just about ready for paint. The post on top of the fuselage was scratch built and is sitting there for effect.
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Caproni%20Ca20/CA2018_zpshhjgdkld.jpg)
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Caproni%20Ca20/CA2019_zpsyandp2ay.jpg)
18 days left and counting!
Cheers,
BC
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Really looks Awesome with the primer and other bits added Brad!
RAGIII
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Second Rick's comments 8)
Terri
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What a great looking plane. You are doing a wonderful job of bringing this kit together.
Cheers
Alistair
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Getting closer to completion!
I reviewed the pictures of the real one and I'm a little perplexed (or should that be 'vexed') about the gun placement. The pilot sits very low in the cockpit. To reload, the gun is tilted 90 degrees just so the pilot can reach it to reload. When in 'firing' position, the pilot couldn't possibly reach the trigger, and I can see no mechanism to fire it, so how was it done? Maybe I just can't see the firing mechanism.
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Getting closer to completion!
I reviewed the pictures of the real one and I'm a little perplexed (or should that be 'vexed') about the gun placement. The pilot sits very low in the cockpit. To reload, the gun is tilted 90 degrees just so the pilot can reach it to reload. When in 'firing' position, the pilot couldn't possibly reach the trigger, and I can see no mechanism to fire it, so how was it done? Maybe I just can't see the firing mechanism.
There is a trigger mechanism on the right side: the pilot was able to fire the gun even in seated position.
The pilot also had a gunsight in front of him, a little like the fighters in the thirties.
Caproni described and illustrated both the mechanism in a patent file.
I will post the pictures later today, if I can find the book....
er me
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Here you can find some pictures of the Caproni patent for the Ca.20 firing mechanism - it is offset to the right side, even if it is not evident from the drawings:
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another one:
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and the last one, Brad:
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Ermeio - you are truly a 'hero member'.
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Just gotta love the ways you Guys support fellow Members, great effort Ermeio! 8) 8) 8)
Cheers,
Lance
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Great info Ermeio!
You will note though that the version of the Ca.20 that I'm building is slightly different to the patent drawings; the arrangement is slightly different and there is no gunsight visible in the contemporary pictures. Those pictures indicate the trigger mechanism was positioned inside the cockpit itself, at the end of a long tube.
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Caproni%20Ca20/the-flighter-monoplane-caproni-ca20-HKDBME_zpsaty1glkn.jpg)
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Caproni%20Ca20/Caproni_ca20-6_zpsn9lbi4tb.jpg)
Later modifications to the aircraft, however, may have had a different setup.
To my mind, there still must have been some kind of cable to the trigger, so i'll be modelling something like that (even if perhaps not entirely accurate).
Cheers,
BC
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Looking great Brad, I am sure whichever version you are doing will turn out as another of your mini masterpieces.
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You are right, Brad,
the patent drawing was different from the version that was tested (the one of the photos that you posted).
And the version in the photo is different from the one that is preserved in New Zealand.
The wings of the preserved example were modified with alierons (probably after the war or late in the war period) instead of wing warping.
When I scratchbuilt my Caproni - 16 years ago - I grew so tired of the fragile gun that I ended up with an Hanriot-like synchronized machine gun... a touch of what-if for this extraordinary aircraft
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Hi Ermeio - I forgot to comment earlier but your scratchbuild is truly inspirational, even in its fictitious markings - I had seen your model before a few years back and remembered it when I saw that Spin did a kit of this aircraft. Do you have any other pictures of it somewhere?
Cheers
BC
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Some top colours are on - here's my attempt at some CDL wings...
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Caproni%20Ca20/CA2020_zps7ncvdobl.jpg)
Happy enough with these - enough variation to keep the plain colour interesting. Thoughts?
Cheers,
BC
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I really like that Brad,its a "Yes" from me.
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Looks fantastic Brad. :D
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Looking good Brad!
RAGIII
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Agree with the others , most excellent Brad :)
Terri
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wing looks very good indeed, shading couldn't be better :)
8)
buzby
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I reallly like them
They are very realistic
er me
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Top class. The fabric looks stretched and taut.
Cheers
Alistair
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The wing looks really nice! The rest of that plane too :)
I like the difference between main spars and the helpers in between.
Cheers,
Frank
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Wow, Brad! I just came across this build and I can tell you yours is much lovelier than the real thing...an example of which is only 30 minutes away at the Museum of Flight just south of Seattle...I could nip over and try to get some pics if you like. It's in an un-restored state but it may be helpful?
Neat job...Dan
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Very nice paint work!!
Steve
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Those wings are looking good, Brad.
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Thanks everyone! Dan, many thanks for the generous offer, but I suspect i'm too far advanced into the build... :-\
Speaking of which, it kind of looks like an aeroplane now.
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Caproni%20Ca20/CA2021_zpsfhliit09.jpg)
Lots more still to go (washes, highlights, some light weathering, rigging etc)... it's going to be close!
Cheers
BC
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Coming together nicely, Brad.
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Really taking shape now Brad! Looks awesome as always.
RAGIII
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Excellent job on the painting and effects . Looking forward on seeing the next step with weathering .
Terri
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Beautiful result Brad, I look forward to admiring your next steps!
Antonio
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I'm with Antonio. Learning a lot just by looking!
Cheers,
Dan
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Very nice work on a very attractive bird!!
Steve
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Hi!
The painting work on the wing, exposing airframes, is really breathtaking!
Maybe the fuselage color is a little bit dark and the metal parts are too shining, looking at the original in the photos.
But, really, I may only imagine the amount of hour and works behind wings painting!
Cheers,
Roberto
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Thanks everyone!
I've been away with work for the last three days which has set me back. It doesn't look like I have much to go but there's more work needed than meets the eye. Not sure i'll get this one finished by the deadline, but it'll be close.
Roberto - the wings didn't take too long to paint (probably only a few hours), but there was a specific order I needed to do things to get the look I wanted. Overall i'm quite happy with how they came out (as I hadn't quite tried the full CDL look before).
Cheers,
BC
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Hi Brad,
This continues to be a really interesting build and you've done wonders with it, especially it being a limited run and I assume resin.
Whether you make the build deadline or not, I'll continue to watch with great interest,
Mike
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Well folks, after a good burst of activity, with a bit over 72 hours left in the group build, i'm calling this one done.
(https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/bradcancian/1-48%20Caproni%20Ca20/CA2022_zps7ol8ymz7.jpg)
Thanks to all for their kind words (and language education!) during this build. It's not the easiest of kits out there, but the only game in town for this obscure, yet important, little fighter.
More photographs of the completed model are here:
https://forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com/index.php?topic=10434.0
All feedback welcomed, as always!
Thanks again,
BC
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Bravo!!!
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Absolutely stunning!! A master of the craft was at work here. Love it.
Cheers
Alistair
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F A N T A S T I C !
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Another Gorgeous Model finished! Really enjoyed watching your progress on this one!
RAGIII
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Congratulations for completing it in time! It looks fantastic. Weathering and how you have displayed it are excellent.
Great result for a Spin Models kit.
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Brad, what a finish!
Fenomenale!
8)
buzby
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Brad, if I compare the postings #62 and #72 you made a huge progress in a short time! :o
Congratulation for a great model finished in time. This will be the template, if I start my kit one day. And I will be very happy, if my result reaches nearly your model.
Cheers,
Frank
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Des would be proud,
Mike
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Brad I somehow missed this which is a shame because I am a devotee of the obscure! The extra details that you have added are first class, the finish is something I could die for.... A super model in every way - many congratulations on finishing in time too.
Stephen.
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Thanks everyone for your kind words!
Now, to see what else I can complete before the deadline.... just kidding :P ;D
BC
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Wow, that was a sudden leap there to the finishing line!
Beautifully done, like all your work, and I love the whole little scene :)
Well, you've got a couple of days left - are you sure you were joking about building another one?
Cheers
Mark
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And I can say "very well done!".
An unusual subject really well executed, I imagine great successes in your next Modelling Events!
As italian, I'm happy too that you changed to "Il Primo Caccia". Perfect italian.
Cheers!
Roberto
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Beautiful presentation!!
Steve
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Well done and nice presentation !
Ed