forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com
WW1 Aircraft Modeling => WW1 Aircraft Information/Questions => Topic started by: RAGIII on December 15, 2018, 10:39:31 AM
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So having received my CSM Nieuport XVII Late kit I decided I do not want to Model any of the provided Markings. My preference is to do a Lafayette Escadrille bird. I have the following questions about 3 airframes.
1. N1844 of Thenault/Lufberry:
Does it have the clear panels in the center section of the upper wing?
Is it indeed a Late Model with wing riblets?
2. N 1977 of Robert Soubiran
Looking through photos in the Albatros production Nieuport Flyers of the Lafayette Escadrile I thought I had confirmed that it indeed had clear center upper wing panels, photo 40 page30. Then I found this on a google images search:
(https://i.postimg.cc/50qP9tbd/NASM-NASM-2-B25805.jpg)
Doesn't appear to have the clear panels to me, or does it? If so which center section would I need from the CSM XVII early kit?
Enlarged the photo and yes, I think it has clear panels.....or not ::)
Is the windscreen a late style or the early Nieuport 16 type?
3. N 1950 flown by a committee but last by Genet.
No questions about the wing as the photos, 45 and 46 page32 nd 33 are clear. But photo 36 pn page 28 seems to show the earlier windscreen?
Something else that arises with this one is the Elevator control points on the fuselage. On N1950 it seeme that the upper exit point is further aft than the lower which is a reversal of the norm but not uncommon apparently?
As a matter of fact the photo of N1844 seems to show the elevator control line exit ports almost in line vertically!
Obviously I have not been in a position to purchase the Newest reference which may indeed answer my questions. So as always any info and help is appreciated!
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I think Soubiran's DOES have the clear center panel; it looks like the top of the left front cabane strut is being reflected by it. If so, you'll need the French (Moreau??) three-legged Lewis mount, and the matching center section will be the one with the constant-width center member (sorry, I can't see the parts numbers in any of the available sprue pics). The windscreen looks to be the flat variant (not the wrap-around frame Nie.11/16 type). BTW, where did you find the Seminole head in 1/32?
Hth, Rob
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Hi Rick, based on the photo above I do not see a clear section on this picture (my old eyes may be wrong), and it looks to have the latter windscreen and feed for the deck weapon, also the cowling has the ridges on top, so maybe a late version? Your opinion will be the one that counts.
Hi Rob, Kiwi Decals makes the markings for this aircraft.
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Transparent center section confirmed! Photo of N1977 on page 11 of Windsock Datafile 20 shows it clearly, and it also shows Vickers gun armament, so you have an alternate to the Lewis gun should you choose it. Wheel covers appear to be the same grey tone as the red of the roundels and the fuselage band; also painted red, perhaps???
Those Kiwi decals look good; nice that we now have a kit worthy of them!!
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Rob and Juan. Thanks for the responses. I now am really certain that the Soubiran N1977 has the clear panels. I kind of figured out about the proper center section but thanks also for confirming my thought. Also note that it clearly has the riblets on the wings. Looks like Edgar needs to release an "Early Late " kit to handle some of the oddities 8)
As for the Thenault /Lufberry N1844 I am pretty sure, about 99% that the clear panel is needed. Have not been able to confirm that the wing riblets are present?
What I find interesting is that N1950 between the Lufberry and Soubiran serials, has riblets and No clear panel. Thus my original statement that serial numbers seem to be no help.
RAGIII
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It may be, that we will offe r Wing sprues for sale
Can not confirm this, as it may be that we will do a sort of MID version, to cover that gap where you need late version with clear center)
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It may be, that we will offe r Wing sprues for sale
Can not confirm this, as it may be that we will do a sort of MID version, to cover that gap where you need late version with clear center)
Thanks for the info Edgar. I hope both come to be 8) In the Mean Time I guess I will either do N1950 or hope someone can supply me with their unused center section for the Moreau Mount.
RAGIII
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Just a note here. I can't begin to say how AWESOME this Forum and its' MEMBERS are. I had just posted my last post and added this kit to my current build thread and had a PM from Petrov27 offering the center panel I need! Thanks Patrick, you are AWESOME!
RAGIII
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Hi Rag
i think if you want to represent the lewis mounted you will need to add some things...
first the Lewis is a early MKI (wich is quite rare in ni-17), the box proposes a MKIII
You can buy a gaspatch MG :
(https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-z0fnvjg/images/stencil/1024x1024/products/75/253/13_32053__00282.1401116841.jpg?c=2)
then you will need not one , but the two central parts of early box.
there has been two kind of wings in early planes:
one central rib first , and a renforced version with a double central rib.
CSM represented the both version wich is cool , but they had to do choises and solidarisated each one with a specific MG mount (Moreau mount for simple rib and N65 mount for double rib)
in reality it was not like that..
(https://nsm09.casimages.com/img/2018/12/17//18121711595623469216040442.jpg)
Refereng to the serial number your plane had a double rib , it is obvious,
with a Moreau mount...
So you have to cut the central part and change it
(https://nsm09.casimages.com/img/2018/12/17//18121711595623469216040443.jpg)
I did the inverse operation in mine.
so you could have something like that (you will have to add plastic card in the narrows...)
(https://nsa39.casimages.com/img/2018/12/18/181218100550419102.jpg) (https://www.casimages.com/i/181218100550419102.jpg.html)
but to tell you the true , I am not sure at all in the windsock second picture, still had the lewis uppon the wing...(this could resolve your problems...)
Xan
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Thanks for the detailed description of the necessary conversion.... So I guess I need to find one more kind donor for the second N65, type mount ;D Almost makes me long for the days of my youth when a Nieuport 17 was just a 17 and one slapped on whatever markings they wanted to use ::)
RAGIII
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I have a needed donor)just PM me about it)
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I would also like to build a Lafayette Escadrille bird. Which CSM kit should I order (early or late)? I don't have a particular aircraft in mind, so whichever one works is fine with me. Are there any Lafayette Escadrille decals available?
Thanks!
Rob
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Rob, I think you’ll have to choose a particular pilot/plane before you decide on the kit. Outside of KIWI Resin’s decal sheet, I don’t know of any 1/32 sheets for the Escadrille Lafayette Nie.17. You could source both the Seminole & Sioux insignia (and perhaps individual pilots’ markings, as I think Thaw and Lufberry flew similarly marked 17’s) from Pheon’s 32001 for the Spad VII, but it’s now OOP.
Regards, Rob
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I have a needed donor)just PM me about it)
Awesome Edgar! PM sent.
RAGIII
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I would also like to build a Lafayette Escadrille bird. Which CSM kit should I order (early or late)? I don't have a particular aircraft in mind, so whichever one works is fine with me. Are there any Lafayette Escadrille decals available?
Rob, I think you’ll have to choose a particular pilot/plane before you decide on the kit. Outside of KIWI Resin’s decal sheet, I don’t know of an 1/32 sheets for the Escadrille Lafayette Nie.17. You could source both the Seminole & Sioux insignia (and perhaps individual pilots’ markings, as I think Thaw and Lufberry flew similarly marked 17’s) from Pheon’s 32001 for the Spad VII, but it’s now OOP.
Regards, Rob
Like Rob said the only decals Right Now are the Kiwi markings for Soubirans 17. As you can see that is not an Out of the Box build. N1950 is a straight forward late model and can be built with or without the upper wing MG straight from the Late Model kit. So just need the Lafayette Indian Head insignia.
For an early model Thenaults can be built OOB but you would need to source the Butterfly marking from the aforementioned Pheon sheet. No other markings other than roundels and tail.
RAGIII
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Thanks Rob and RAGIII!
Rob
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Update: Page 26 of Windsock Datafile 20 (Nieuport 17) shows Thaw's N1582 with the same wing center and reinforced cowl as Soubiran's, Vickers armament, PLUS a "cone de penetration" (available in the 32001 kit). Thaw's "T" personal marking is shown in place of the Seminole unit badge in photos on p 67 of Osprey's Nieuport Aces of WW1.
The same volume shows Lufbery's N1844 with the Seminole and three horizontal red "coup" bars, reinforced cowl, and BOTH Vickers & Lewis guns, but upper wing details aren't evident.
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Regarding Lufbery's N1844 I feel pretty certain it has the clear center section from some pics found online:
(https://i.imgur.com/o3leRAE.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/gn1WzhR.jpg)
Also as stated above clear section on Soubiran's as well
(https://i.imgur.com/XBeYgMp.jpg)
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No question about the Thenault/ Lufberry bird having the clear panels. Thanks Patrick for the additional photos. So now perhaps Xan can tell us if it is the "Double" reinforced version? Looks different than the Soubiran center to me, or is that wishful thinking 8)
The photo of N 1844 brings back another question from my original post. Look at the Elevator control exit holes on 1844. They seem to be almost vertically aligned unlike the usual top one forward. As I stated also in the original post, N1950 has the top opening to the rear of the bottom one, totally opposite of the Norm. Any idea as to why?
RAGIII
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Hi Rag,
in the alu painted planes, always double center ribs. Simple one were only in the very first early plane.
Xan
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I don't no very well N134, and I have no documentaiton.
I found those one without window
but quite simple markings...
(https://nsa39.casimages.com/img/2018/12/20/181220114054295522.jpg)
(http://albindenis.free.fr/Site_escadrille/Photos3/124LAF_Dudley-Hill.jpg)
Sgt Dudley Hill pose devant le Nieuport 17 n° 1887 sur le terrain de Cachy pendant l'hiver 1916-1917
(http://albindenis.free.fr/Site_escadrille/Photos3/124LAF_DeHaviland_Mecanos.jpg)
Adj Willis B. de Haviland pose en compagnie de ses deux mécaniciens sur le terrain de Cachy en fin d'année 1916 - Son avion est le Nieuport 17 n° 1887 - Il porte en outre la tête d'indien, une large bande blanche de fuselage
(http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/113/pics/21_29.jpg)
Xan
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Xan, Thanks for posting the photos. I have Most in My Nieuport Flyers of the Lafayette Escadrille book from Windsock or other references. Just for the record the first of Courtney Campbell is a 23. Well documented. As for the color profile I like it and if I fail on my center section conversion This one is certainly a good choice for an OOB build! Thanks again and one more time any thoughts on the Elevator control wire exit points on the fuselage of some 17s being different?
RAGIII
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Anyone have any ideas about which kit to start with for Billy Bishop’s B1556?
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32002 (Late), as it has the cowl with the horizontal (3 and 9 o'clock) reinforcing ribs evidenced in photo of B1556 with WAB leaning against the starboard lower wing.
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32002 (Late), as it has the cowl with the horizontal (3 and 9 o'clock) reinforcing ribs evidenced in photo of B1556 with WAB leaning against the starboard lower wing.
I agree as to the best version to start with. That being said there are Numerous changes to make. No Vickers is Mounted and there is No sign of any of the paraphernalia connected with the Vickers . So a solid upper cowl section and who knows about the boxes for ammo in the interior. An opening in the upper wing center. Aldis Sight mounted under the upper wing center section for the overwing Lewis probably on a Foster Mount. These are Just the more noticeable differences. I would wait a bit and see if Edgar releases a British variant as he once mentioned that RFC birds would be a lot different. So very doable but would take a some work!
RAGIII
PS: Strut Mounted Pitot
(https://i.postimg.cc/NfBwWdkm/Lieutenant-Colonel-Bishop.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/NMXcwVn7/Billy-Bishop.jpg)
Pulled off of the WEB so as always if Copyright is a problem the photos will Happily be removed.
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32002 (Late), as it has the cowl with the horizontal (3 and 9 o'clock) reinforcing ribs evidenced in photo of B1556 with WAB leaning against the starboard lower wing.
Sorry, should be, of course B1566 . . .
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Alright, I’ll wait and see if an RFC boxing appears.
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Alright, I’ll wait and see if an RFC boxing appears.
I'm with you. The RFC schemes might include B1566 just for historical significance, and the CSM decals are bound to be top shelf. I bought the CSM early XVII just to do Ball's A.213. Difficult to cobble together markings, but not impossible.