forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com
WW1 Aircraft Modeling => Under Construction => Topic started by: Gisbod on December 23, 2014, 12:48:39 AM
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Hello all,
Finally time to get back in the saddle - although doing build threads seems a guarantee of not finishing a model!
This lovely box arrived this morning:
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/1%2032%20Hansa%20Brandenburg%20W12/imagejpg2.jpg)
I've got it in my head to do the prototype - so no lozenge - I'd really like to capture a translucent wing effect like on this image... Haven't worked out how yet!
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/1%2032%20Hansa%20Brandenburg%20W12/imagejpg1.jpg)
I'm guessing CDL for the wings, aluminium for the engine and cockpit panels & dark wood for the fuselage/ floats - any other suggestions are welcome 😁
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/1%2032%20Hansa%20Brandenburg%20W12/imagejpg3.jpg)
The obvious difference is the radiator above the engine - any other differences you can see?
Regards
Guy
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Ps the exhaust is on the other side of the engine too? Unless the photos are reversed?
Pps my Felixstowe shipped last week too 😄
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I'm hoping mine will arrive, wrapped in a red and green bow, on Thursday morning.
Love this photo of the prototype...and the architecture.
To replicate the look of translucency in his master build of the Sparrow Scout, dear friend to many of us here, Andrei Koribanics, used painted decal strips cut as thin as rib tapes on the underside of the wing, which were then airbrushed to almost be invisible. I'm afraid that's all I can remember of his process. I may have his build log here somewhere and will look for it.
(http://i1371.photobucket.com/albums/ag293/michaelscarborough1/Sparrow51_zps957aff78.jpg) (http://s1371.photobucket.com/user/michaelscarborough1/media/Sparrow51_zps957aff78.jpg.html)
I look forward to following your build!
Cheers from NYC,
Michael
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Welcome back Guy!
The prototypes were powered by Mercedes D.IIIs... Hence exhaust on stbd side.
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Hello Guy,
Good luck with the build. It doesn't seem to be the easiest one! Merry Christmas.
Kind regards
Patrick
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Welcome back Guy!
The prototypes were powered by Mercedes D.IIIs... Hence exhaust on stbd side.
Hi Bo, thanks - hmm - that may cause a problem.. Unless they were retro fitted with the other engine... (wishful thinking)
Thanks Michael, that looks really good 😁
Hi Patrick, it looks fairly straightforward? Are there issues?
Guy
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Hi Patrick, it looks fairly straightforward? Are there issues?
Guy
Not at all Guy, it is only a build i woudn't there tackle for at least 5 years to come. It looks more destined to a more experienced modeler like you are. Good luck my friend.
Kind regards
Patrick
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Welcome back Guy!
The prototypes were powered by Mercedes D.IIIs... Hence exhaust on stbd side.
Hi Bo, thanks - hmm - that may cause a problem.. Unless they were retro fitted with the other engine... (wishful thinking)
Thanks Michael, that looks really good 😁
Hi Patrick, it looks fairly straightforward? Are there issues?
Guy
If you still want to tackle it (do it!), you can buy WNW's Merc D.III/D.IIIa sprue separately. (Or wait until Lukasz releases the Taurus D.III. He has announced that he will do it but it is probably some months off.)
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[/quote]
If you still want to tackle it (do it!), you can buy WNW's Merc D.III/D.IIIa sprue separately. (Or wait until Lukasz releases the Taurus D.III. He has announced that he will do it but it is probably some months off.)
[/quote]
I've just done a Google/ eBay search and can't find anyone selling them! And Wingnuts are shut down for the next month 😢 Anyone know where I could source one?
Thanks RB - that looks cracking 😉
Guy
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Very ambitious project, Guy. I was also thinking of doing one of the prototypes. You'll have to reshape the nose and remove some engine panel louvers in addition to adding the wing mounted radiator. If you can't wait till after the holidays, maybe you can use the Roden D.III.
https://www.scalehobbyist.com/catagories/Objects/mercedes-d-iii-160hp-engine/ROD00000623/product.php?s=3-6&t=1&u=4&pg=1&ppp=48&sb=stocknumber&so=a&era=5&sc=32
I'm looking forward to following this build.
Cheers,
Bud
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You mean you don't have an Albatros D.V or Fokker D.VII in the pile to rob? ;)
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At the very least I'd get an order in for the engine, to be processed when the Hobbits return. If WNW choses not to re-release the Liberty engine, i'll have to rob one from a DH-9a.
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I did this with black pencil overstayed with a thin CDL, but remember, shadows underneath mean reflection (no shadows) on top.
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee226/tHEcONCH_photos/IMG_1092.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee226/tHEcONCH_photos/IMG_1081.jpg)
Where did you get the Imperial Flag ?
Ed
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This will be a very interesting build and one that I will be following.
Des.
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You mean you don't have an Albatros D.V or Fokker D.VII in the pile to rob? ;)
No! :(
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Very ambitious project, Guy. I was also thinking of doing one of the prototypes. You'll have to reshape the nose and remove some engine panel louvers in addition to adding the wing mounted radiator. If you can't wait till after the holidays, maybe you can use the Roden D.III.
https://www.scalehobbyist.com/catagories/Objects/mercedes-d-iii-160hp-engine/ROD00000623/product.php?s=3-6&t=1&u=4&pg=1&ppp=48&sb=stocknumber&so=a&era=5&sc=32
I'm looking forward to following this build.
Cheers,
Bud
You're putting me off now Bud!
Just glued the top wings together - quite surprised they took this approach - gives some major seams to fill in the most obvious places - not even along the spar line - I'll post a picture later..
Guy
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Ps thanks for the link Bud - that's a very good option.. Are they up to scratch compared to Wingnuts?
G
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Ps thanks for the link Bud - that's a very good option.. Are they up to scratch compared to Wingnuts?
G
Not as detailed, but the overall dimensions and shapes are basically correct. The little bit that shows can be dressed up with Taurus stuff.
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Thanks again Bo, I'll have a think on that.
Here's what I was talking about re. the seams - easily enough fixed but other one's I've built have a single piece wing eliminating any joins - maybe it's just too big to fit in the box...
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/1%2032%20Hansa%20Brandenburg%20W12/341145d3e2bbb6665313c920394e71a9.jpg)
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/1%2032%20Hansa%20Brandenburg%20W12/5acd1536c43b6b0cb31fde25a6b4e871.jpg)
Guy
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Maybe done to provide a nice razor thin edge at the cut-out?
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Yep, maybe Bo,
They are super thin - see through in fact!
Re. the engine - I still wouldn't have an exhaust as the kit one's are the wrong way round and the Wingnut engine kits don't come with exhausts (and even if they did - wouldn't be upright like the prototypes) - I'm beginning to think I either go for an 'upgraded engine' prototype or resort to a standard scheme, or I guess I could do a production one unpainted!
Guy
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It's your model -- you get to build it any way you want!
But if you do decide to go all in, I am sure you will find plenty of advice and encouragement here :)
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Thanks again Bo, I'll have a think on that.
Here's what I was talking about re. the seams - easily enough fixed but other one's I've built have a single piece wing eliminating any joins - maybe it's just too big to fit in the box...
Guy
Hi Guy!!!
I love the idea of prototype!!! And as Bo said, there will be plenty of encouragement here. Although this is first time I've heard of it I myself thinking about buying one extra box now :D well, I think It might be that wing isn't in single piece because there are two different options for cut-outs, maybe? And I wouldn't give up on that engine/exhaust too, maybe try ask here, I'm pretty sure there might be some spare exhausts around forum/fans that left after builds as there is quite few kits with few different options for exhaust :) and that on on prototype looks quite familiar :)
Happy modelling!!!
Cheerio
Lukas
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Very ambitious project, Guy. I was also thinking of doing one of the prototypes. You'll have to reshape the nose and remove some engine panel louvers in addition to adding the wing mounted radiator. If you can't wait till after the holidays, maybe you can use the Roden D.III.
https://www.scalehobbyist.com/catagories/Objects/mercedes-d-iii-160hp-engine/ROD00000623/product.php?s=3-6&t=1&u=4&pg=1&ppp=48&sb=stocknumber&so=a&era=5&sc=32
I'm looking forward to following this build.
Cheers,
Bud
You're putting me off now Bud!
Just glued the top wings together - quite surprised they took this approach - gives some major seams to fill in the most obvious places - not even along the spar line - I'll post a picture later..
Guy
Please don't be put off, Guy. It's an excellent idea for a project and, as Lukas has said, there are plenty of folks here willing to help.
Cheers,
Bud
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Hello Lukas ;)
Thanks for the encouragement everyone :)
I got all excited for a moment looking at a DFW with a similar exhaust on the right side* - until I realised its on a Bz.IV engine :( so won't be the right size - can anyone think of another aircraft that uses an upright exhaust on a D.III Mercedes?
If I can get one, then I'll go for it, but if not - I'm thinking plan 'B'...
Guy
*and it had an over the engine mounted radiator!
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"Don't Give up the Ship".
As has already been stated, with the help and encouragement of all of the talented model builders on this site, there is a way around this.
I for one hope you will press on with the plan. There will be plenty of production builds but it will be neat to see the prototype come to life and especially, as one of the first builds.
Cheers from NYC,
Michael
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I got all excited for a moment looking at a DFW with a similar exhaust on the right side* - until I realised its on a Bz.IV engine :( so won't be the right size -
I wouldn't be so sure it couldn't be adapted to a Mercedes D.III -- all those German 6 cylinder engines were roughly the same size
I could measure for you, but not for a couple of days... My DFWs are at the remote stash ;)
maybe someone else can get to it sooner.
Roland C.II might also be a candidate for exhaust?
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Hi Guy,
maybe you can use the exhaust of the WNW LVG C.VI?
Here are some pictures to compare. He does not fit exactly in the cylinder spacing, but I think it can be fixed easy.
He is slightly curved at the end, ................ but this is also not a big problem to fix.
The intermediate tube in the middle must also be inserted, -this also can be done.
I do not need this exhaust, -- if you need this exhaust, please send me your postal address.
(http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h342/ASKundASK/Ex1_zpsb81dcd00.jpg) (http://s1105.photobucket.com/user/ASKundASK/media/Ex1_zpsb81dcd00.jpg.html)
(http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h342/ASKundASK/Ex2_zpsa0e3a070.jpg) (http://s1105.photobucket.com/user/ASKundASK/media/Ex2_zpsa0e3a070.jpg.html)
(http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h342/ASKundASK/Ex3_zpsb2645e4b.jpg) (http://s1105.photobucket.com/user/ASKundASK/media/Ex3_zpsb2645e4b.jpg.html)
(http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h342/ASKundASK/Ex4_zps1cce06b8.jpg) (http://s1105.photobucket.com/user/ASKundASK/media/Ex4_zps1cce06b8.jpg.html)
Servus
Bertl
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Bertl,
You absolute star! ;D that would be super kind of you...
I'll send you a pm ;)
Guy
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What a great forum..
I don't suppose anyone's got a spare Merc D.III and/ or an overhead radiator? Would be more than happy to pay whatever and postage..
Guy ;)
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Bertl and Guy,
this is absolutely brilliant!!! All I need to do is to order Merc D.III engine with Hansa and get exhaust from LVG or Roland :D with little adjustments...
well, all this in the future :D hopefully near enough
Cheerio
Lukas
p.s. I'd wait for WNW to re-open in January and just order their Merc D.III engine sprue - it will be so worth it!!! :)
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p.s. I'd wait for WNW to re-open in January and just order their Merc D.III engine sprue - it will be so worth it!!! :)
I may have one but can't check because the Christmas presents are in the same closet with my stash!! Ho Ho ho.
Will let you know tomorrow!!
Cheers from NYC,
Michael
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p.s. I'd wait for WNW to re-open in January and just order their Merc D.III engine sprue - it will be so worth it!!! :)
I may have one but can't check because the Christmas presents are in the same closet with my stash!! Ho Ho ho.
Will let you know tomorrow!!
Cheers from NYC,
Michael
Cor, thanks Michael.. Anyone would think it's Christmas! :)
I don't know if it's just me, but making seams disappear is my Achilles heel - I'm very pleased with the end result but it's taken the best part of the day... Sand - primer - sand - primer - repeat ad nauseum! I used super glue - but was getting a bit worried I'd end up with a hole as the trailing edge is so thin to start with :(
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/1%2032%20Hansa%20Brandenburg%20W12/0c2be6f5a9a8469efa1c01a093d83afe.jpg)
But it's looking like the prototype is on thanks to you chaps :)
Guy
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Although my spares didn't have any helpful things to contribute I've been following this little exercise closely; what a fine example of the nature of this Forum, what a great bunch!! And on Chrismas Eve (where I am at least) Nicely done and good luck with the Prototype Build, Guy!
Cheers & Merry Christmas,
Lance
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Cor, thanks Michael.. Anyone would think it's Christmas! :)
[/quote]
It IS, Dude! HO HO HO (And my Felixstowe has arrived, as well!!!)
Cheers and Merry Christmas!
MIchael
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Merry Christmas all :D
Hello Lance - thanks for following - yep, it is a great example of a helpful, friendly forum - now if I only had a new sports car - I could get the prototype finished....
Lucky you Michael! No sign of mine :(
G
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Welcome back Guy,
I was looking at the datafile the other day and thought how nice the prototype looked, now I get to see you build it!
A couple of other differences from looking in the datafile (more photos there): The pilot's cockpit opening is bigger on the right hand side, with no door, left side looks the same as the production machines. Oddly, the shape of it looks more rounded in the first (earlier) pic you posted.
Also the top wing cutout is a lot smaller than either of the kit options.
Looking forward to seeing this one come together.
Merry Christmas
Tom
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Hello Tom,
Happy Christmas :D
Thanks for that - perhaps I ought to try and get one if they're still available - it would be worth it for the extra pictures - I could only find the 2 I've posted online. Anyone have any links to more pictures?
Guy
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Can't find one for sale...
They're are lots for download? But all the sites look a bit iffy to me.. Anywhere you can recommend for download onto an iPad?
Guy
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Just so you know, any versions available for download are pirate copies. ???
Ray Rimmel has announced the W.12 Datafile (along with the F2A) will be reprinted; don't have the flyer handy but it sounded like this would be sooner rather than later...
I think the aileron shape is also different?
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Ah, ok..
I'll have to wait for the new one then ;)
G
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I think the aileron shape is also different?
Yes, wingtips are a bit more square (top and bottom). Just noticed the drawings at the back of the datafile.
Rudder, elevators and tailplane are a bit different too.
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Thanks again Bo, I'll have a think on that.
Here's what I was talking about re. the seams - easily enough fixed but other one's I've built have a single piece wing eliminating any joins - maybe it's just too big to fit in the box...
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/1%2032%20Hansa%20Brandenburg%20W12/341145d3e2bbb6665313c920394e71a9.jpg)
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/1%2032%20Hansa%20Brandenburg%20W12/5acd1536c43b6b0cb31fde25a6b4e871.jpg)
Guy
Top wing fits in the box fine. Lucky for me my seams weren't quite as big. Coming along nicely btw.
James
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Guy,
The Datafile reprint Bo mentions is available for pre-order now on the Albatross Publications Website, published in Feb/March IIRC. I pre-ordered last week.
Cheers,
Lance
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Thanks Lance :)
I've just realised I've used the wrong wing cut out though ::) I used the 'early' version thinking it would be closest to the prototype - wrong! The prototype had a very small cut out that the pilots apparently didn't like - naturally, I've used the huge cutout :(
I'm now agonising over the fuselage cut out on the starboard side - as has been mentioned - it's much larger with no door. It's not that I mind the surgery - it's just whether I have the ability to make it look like I haven't been hacking at it with a Stanley knife! Any ideas on how best to recreate the leather trim if I go that route?
Hope Christmas was good for everyone...
Guy
Ps I had it in my mind the cowlings were aluminium - but I think they may have been painted grey?
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Thanks again Bo, I'll have a think on that.
Here's what I was talking about re. the seams - easily enough fixed but other one's I've built have a single piece wing eliminating any joins - maybe it's just too big to fit in the box...
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/1%2032%20Hansa%20Brandenburg%20W12/341145d3e2bbb6665313c920394e71a9.jpg)
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/1%2032%20Hansa%20Brandenburg%20W12/5acd1536c43b6b0cb31fde25a6b4e871.jpg)
Guy
Top wing fits in the box fine. Lucky for me my seams weren't quite as big. Coming along nicely btw.
James
This kind of seams are nasty, since even if you can sort out miracles, you end up ruining the tapes, at least.
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One way to do the leather coaming is to wrap aluminum foil over a coil of epoxy putty. Experiment on a facsimile first :)
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Sorry, Guy,
No Merc. here.
Best of luck!
Cheers from NYC,
Michael
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That's ok Michael, thanks for looking for me anyway ;)
Having actually done some proper research - the prototype is quite a bit different in many ways - wing shape/ cut out/ ailerons/ elevators/ fuselage cut outs/ machine guns location/ no front radiator/ engine/ cowlings completely different. If I was to do it I just wouldn't be able to do all of those properly - so I'm coming round to the idea of doing a 'naked' production W.12 - ie before paint/ lozenge etc applied - it would give me the finish I want & at least it would be accurate. Sorry if it sounds like I'm wimping out - but that appeals to me as much as the prototype... Although, I'd love to see someone do it justice..
Oh well :P
Guy
Ps no need to send me an exhaust I reckon Bertl... But thank you very much For the offer...
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i have made a nice cockpit combing from glueing evergreen rod of appropriate size then using mr surfacer and a small paint brush to simulate the irregular leather padded look. i just gather a blob and then kinda stretch it along the length of the combing allowing it to blob up more or less here or there. after it drys you will have to repeat the steps at least once or twice to make it look really good. after i paint a base coat of a burnt umber and then dab on 2 or 3 browns/red browns until it looks like leather. i have used this technique to improve other kit combings as well like roden ones that are just too uniform. i think your build is coming along nicely and do what makes you feel comfortable.if you feel like you want to do a serious project then go for the conversion. if not i am possitive a stock w-12 would look great too. the 1/48 copper state kit gives you both cowls and radiator options.
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Thank you ..
I'd be quite happy to do that, but I think it's just the fact that it started as a easy build with minimal rigging to warm me up - then morphing into a big project (for me!) - when all I really wanted was to experiment with a doped wing... And I've got the Felxstowe coming soon... ::)
Not that I'll be rushing, but I don't want it to take months either...
Guy
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Little progress...
Finally got the sanding of the joints to how I wanted it and now onto the painting of the wing - I have a notion of how I want the finished wing to look having studied period photographs of a clear doped surface - it may look a little odd now but there are a few stages to come yet.
Fingers crossed ::)
First stage:
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/1%2032%20Hansa%20Brandenburg%20W12/11a9790aa0edb5238c6239d2b8b632c3.jpg)
Then the start of much masking :P
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/1%2032%20Hansa%20Brandenburg%20W12/198f2e0df5fd3ba7b9b9bf2c2ff63565.jpg)
Guy
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Starting to look good now Guy.
Cheers
Pete.
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Hi Guy,
please have a look at the pictures on the link below.
There you can see some pictures of the wing, covered with clear dopped linen, looks like in the original.
Maybe these pictures help a little bit.
http://forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com/index.php?topic=518.0
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Hi Guy,
please have a look at the pictures on the link below.
There you can see some pictures of the wing, covered with clear dopped linen, looks like in the original.
Maybe these pictures help a little bit.
http://forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com/index.php?topic=518.0
Thanks Bertl - much appreciated - but too late! Just finished the wings...
It's about 80% how I imagined it to be :P
I was going to leave it 'naked' but it looked a little bare - and the crosses add to the 'see through' effect
Top wing:
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/1%2032%20Hansa%20Brandenburg%20W12/imagejpg1-1.jpg)
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/1%2032%20Hansa%20Brandenburg%20W12/imagejpg5.jpg)
Lower wing:
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/1%2032%20Hansa%20Brandenburg%20W12/imagejpg2-1.jpg)
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/1%2032%20Hansa%20Brandenburg%20W12/imagejpg3-1.jpg)
Cheers
Guy
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Jepp, this looks good in my eyes ;)
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Personally I think you have NAILED the see through look! I can only hope that when I try something similar it comes out as well!
RAGIII
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Yeah, that looks awesome, Guy.
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Wow! Very cool and convincing! Bravo!
Michael
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That looks really great - really pulled off the see-thru effect well!
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No doubt, you've nailed the "see-through" effect. As others have said, I only hope I can do as well.
Warren
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Wow! Very cool and convincing! Bravo!
Michael
+1.
Cheers,
Bob
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Very nice work with the CDL ;)
Keith
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I add my congratulations. Another technique to add to my inventory. Excellent effect!
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That is one of the best CDL transparencies I have ever seen, extremely well done.
Des.
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Really impressive painting of that CDL. I like it very much. One question, though, on the upper side of the lower wing: the Iron Cross was painted onto the lower wing's underside. When looking onto the upper side, would you be able to see the spar, where the Iron Cross was painted from below? I think the black colour would block any light coming from below, no?
Stefan
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Thanks for all the kind comments :D it does help the build along!
Really impressive painting of that CDL. I like it very much. One question, though, on the upper side of the lower wing: the Iron Cross was painted onto the lower wing's underside. When looking onto the upper side, would you be able to see the spar, where the Iron Cross was painted from below? I think the black colour would block any light coming from below, no?
Stefan
Hi Stefan, I think you're talking about this one?
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/1%2032%20Hansa%20Brandenburg%20W12/imagejpg2-1.jpg)
It's meant to represent the light shining through the wing from above - hence the lighter spar outlines on the top surfaces - and the lower wing spar is darker than the surrounding fabric - it really depends on the ambient lighting - the look is very different depending on what period photograph you are looking at and what angle it's being viewed from! But I'm grateful for any feedback!
The look is a bit 2D - but I'm at a loss how to make it more 3D unless you painted it to look at the model from one specific viewpoint - but then it would look odd from every other viewpoint!
Guy
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Ah yes,
I see what you mean - I've missed the tips - now you've mentioned it - I'll have to touch that bit up :P
Thanks ;)
Guy
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Hello Guy,
The wing looks absolutely magnificent and real. Wonderful work you did. A joy for the eyes!
Kind regards
Patrick
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The look is a bit 2D - but I'm at a loss how to make it more 3D unless you painted it to look at the model from one specific viewpoint - but then it would look odd from every other viewpoint!
This is the age old problem of Trompe L'oeil... To recall sell it, you must restrict the viewpoint...
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This is amazing. Bravo.
There's an interesting tie in to what Michel Gruson was doing with his Brisfit, and other builds, when he's talking about deciding on from what direction the sun is hitting the object. It's a major consideration in figure painting and, increasingly spreading to armor modeling and now, all aspects of model building/painting. The other consideration is what Bo is referring to as restricting the viewpoint.
This is fascinating stuff to consider.
Cheers from NYC,
Michael
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This is the age old problem of Trompe L'oeil... To recall sell it, you must restrict the viewpoint...
Sorry, autocorrect fail -- meant "to really sell it…"
The style of enhanced shadow/light painting is often referred to as "zenithal lighting" (as Guy well knows, we've had this discussion before… :) )
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Is there a thread on the subject, Bo?
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Is there a thread on the subject, Bo?
I don't there is one, per se; Guy talked about it in conjunction with his Albatros build a year or so ago, and I probably blathered on about it a little bit when I was painting my Albatros fuselage too. I put some links to some examples near the beginning of my Alby thread I think. There is the so called "Spanish School" that takes it to extremes; that's been discussed too.
I come at all this from video game modeling, where it is called light mapping; another idea I borrow from that practice is "ambient occlusion" which many modelers do possibly without realizing what exactly they are doing, but it looks cool :)
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Right, I know what is troubling me - the white spar appears to go over the mid section of the cross, but not the tips in the same intensity.
Yes, this is exactly what confused me. It looks kind of .... weird, if you don't mind.
I ma looking very much forward towards the updated/slightly corrected version.
Stefan
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Ok, Bo, thanks.....that was before my time on the site started. I will do some digging.
I agree that some of the European work has indeed gotten over done, in all aspects of model building and figures. IMHO, the painting has turned into a "can you top this" sort of mentality where we've gone from trying to produce objects that look as realistic as possible in scale, to where the goal seems to be to produce as overly painted and über-affected object as possible.
But, there's certainly room for everyone.
Michael
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Ok, Bo, thanks.....that was before my time on the site started. I will do some digging.
I agree that some of the European work has indeed gotten over done, in all aspects of model building and figures. IMHO, the painting has turned into a "can you top this" sort of mentality where we've gone from trying to produce objects that look as realistic as possible in scale, to where the goal seems to be to produce as overly painted and über-affected object as possible.
But, there's certainly room for everyone.
Michael
I completely agree Michael,
Everyone seems desperate to produce their own extreme technique - but as you say - there's a place for everyone, and each method has its merits. I try to pick out the bits I like and adapt them to my modelling - I think the overall standard of finishing has become very high across the board - due to the sharing of knowledge on forums.
I really like the Zenithal lighting thing - it can be very effective. I had a dabble in the Tamiya 1/48 armour range, super little kits, and I learnt a lot from armour modellers. Here's a Russian JS2 I was experimenting with...
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/1%2048%20Russian%20JS%202/IMG_2818.jpg)
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/1%2048%20Russian%20JS%202/IMG_2909.jpg)
But I find it very hard to transfer that to aircraft for some reason - I think it just lends itself to slabs of armour rather than the curves of an aircraft. Come to think of it - I don't recall ever seeing it to any great effect on an aircraft - I'd like to see some examples if anyone has them?
I find it fascinating!
Guy
Ps apologies for armour pictures Des! :-X but it's just to demonstrate technique...
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This is great stuff, Guy...your work is exemplary, be it to replicate fabric or steel plate. Bravo.
I don't want to hijack your thread here so let me close my tangent with a thought from old friend, Andrei Koribanics (may he RIP and, oh, how I miss discussions with him!). Andrei was a graduate of Parsons School of Design and made his living as an artist. He used a lot of light and shadow effects in his gorgeous 1/72 WWI aircraft builds. He was also an astoundingly wonderful figure sculptor and painter and the first person I know of that was employing such techniques that most of us would consider limited to the figure painting world, on model aircraft. But, as he would have said, "an object is an object" and all objects are affected by the light that is hitting them.
I believe the rise in interest in WWI aircraft modeling, and the gathering and disseminating of knowledge on painting techniques in a forum such as Des had created for us, populated with some extremely talented and thoughtful model builders, will push finishing techniques to levels we could never have imagined. And why not? Could you have ever imagined that you'd be working on a 1/32 scale W.12? Let alone a 1/32 Felixstowe?? Our time is at hand, gents.
Cheers from NYC,
Michael
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Interesting point Michael, and in the general field of 1/32 kits, we are seeing an explosive growth. We are getting unheard of kits in the WWI range, and as Guys see-through effect shows a lot can be done with a careful color selection, and a good idea.
Maybe this can be pinned as an SBS? I'm going to have to try this on an Eindekker.
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I'm continually impressed by some of the AFV & figure modellers with their painting techniques but frankly when I put to one side my admiration of their superb mastery of 'technique' some of even the award winning results remind me not so much of reality but more of stage 'make-up'.
Regards
Russell
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It does seem to divide the community.. It's a subjective subject!
But to the other extreme - you could paint an aircraft in a uniform colour and say - let the light do its job - but it doesn't look right (to me) the light needs to be 'scaled down' somehow. Anyway, the linen look is a first attempt, hopefully I'll get better at it with practice :D
I've collected all the wood bits together for a mass paint job - hoping to do the oils tonight (the fun bit ;D) as I'm away on a trip for 6 days, and it would be super useful to let it start drying before I go!
Guy
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/Mobile%20Uploads/image.jpg)
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Placing the model in a diorama such that it is best visible from a constrained viewpoint might accomplish painting with the light as required. I don't see how one could do this otherwise.
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I apologize for continuing the hijack, but heck, it's our forum, we'll get it back on track eventually. :) 8)
I agree that some of the effects used by armor and figure painters are overdone to the point that they appear to be caricatures more than a representation of the real thing. Sometimes it appears an award goes out for who can be more extreme, etc. That's just my opinion, and everybody's got one. Or two. Who knows?
Anyway, I was and will continue to be inspired by the work of Shepherd Paine from the 70's onward. Say what you will, but he was doing more with much less early on, and his dioramas, at least in my very humble opinion, not only hold up, but are still far better than the overwhelming majority of work I've seen in recent years. (Sorry if that hurts anyone's feelings.) If memory serves, Shepherd Paine's figures were painted with the universal principal that the lighting was coming from overhead. I think that's a reasonable constant to work with.
For those of you wanting to look at Mr. Koribanic's beautiful work, please click on the images and follow on the following pages:
http://www.wwi-models.org/Images/Koribanics/index.html
(Michael, I was not aware that he had passed away. I'm saddened to hear that.)
Anyway, enjoy Mr. Koribanic's fine work.
Y'all may now get back to the 1/32 Hansa-Brandenburg W.12. 8)
Warren
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You're not hijacking it at all Warren..
I love experimenting with new techniques - that's really what inspires me to do the next model - it may be metal or lozenge or lighting or whatever. So chatting about how to get the best from paint styles is key to the thread for me! Any tips and techniques - please post! We all learn from each other..
To my mind, you could be an average builder and transform a model into a masterpiece with paint, but you can ruin a beautifully made model with an average finish...
Guy
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To my mind, you could be an average builder and transform a model into a masterpiece with paint, but you can ruin a beautifully made model with an average finish...
My thoughts exactly.
Warren
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Guy it is a great work.
Martin
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Guy,
This is really lovely work, and a very informative thread! Awesome.
Chris
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Guy, this is really getting exciting. Are you sure you can't delay your trip? I want to see what you do with all these wooden parts.
Maybe we should start a separate thread on this painting topic.....
Placing the model in a diorama such that it is best visible from a constrained viewpoint might accomplish painting with the light as required. I don't see how one could do this otherwise.
This is a really good point and one that has confounded figure painters for years: you paint a figure as if it's in a specific type of light, say Zenithal, which casts imaginary highlights and shadows, but then you set the figure down on a table at a show and the ambient light creates actual shadows. Our colleague the Red Baron has said he does his "Zenithal lighting with a light", and he has a really good point......would that we could all take lights with us to shows and cast the exact amount and direction of light on our models that we choose. With the increasing flexibility and transportability of LEDs and battery packs, this may soon be possible. The one sure way to do it is to create box dioramas....but more on that later and in a separate thread.
Re: the Stage Make Up look of some armor builds, I agree totally. Steve Zaloga's builds are, to my eye, the most realistic mainly because he seriously studies armor and the way weather and battlefield conditions affect it. Many of the other guys, especially the Euro crowd have really gone too far.
My concern is that the same process is beginning to creep into our work with WWI aero models. Someone started to highlight the rib bulges in the wings, which is absolutely correct, but now we see a lot of builds with an almost striped look on the wings. It's like the WWII guys did with panel lines....someone put some subtle wash into a panel line and made it look more realistic. It grew from that to where many of the builds these days looks as if someone took an ink brush and ruler and inked in all the panels, even the raised panels.
OK..sorry if I seem to be ranting. I think the future is extremely exciting and a lot of wonderful things are already happening in bringing the level of realism of these kits we build to new heights. As more people with more knowledge join the conversation it will really take off.
Cheers from NYC,
Michael
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Michael,
You've hit on some very valid points. I'd like to address them, but I'd like to do it in another thread so that we don't hijack Guy's thread. Maybe I'll have time to collect my thoughts and start a new thread in a bit.
Warren
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I'm with you on that, Warren.
Good idea.
Michael
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Me too.
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Fantastic job on the W.12 Guy, your painting tecniques are excellent.
The discussion relating to the painting of models and using armour models as a reference is all great for the modelers, we are all learning from what others have to say and to see what others have achieved. This discussion would be best suited in another topic and allow Guy to continue with his brilliant build for all of us to enjoy uninterrupted.
Warren, please do start another topic relating to this painting subject, I look forward to participating in the discussion.
Des.
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Thanks all,
Yep, I find it fascinating too ;)
Well, as luck would have it I was dropped from my trip as someone else needed it ;D so, I've actually been beavering away at my build. The silly thing is, because I know the Felixstowe will arrive any day now - I find myself rushing a bit, which I realise is daft, but it's a failing of mine... Particularly as the W.12 is an absolute lovely kit & I'm really enjoying it :)
Apologies for the close ups - the macro photography, as ever, has highlighted flaws and all :P
I really enjoyed the floats:
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/1%2032%20Hansa%20Brandenburg%20W12/e6be9681741d9da0bf9a295064ce77a6.jpg)
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/1%2032%20Hansa%20Brandenburg%20W12/206df67a3241d920e47a5ec6b02c3b72.jpg)
I haven't really gone to town on the engine (too much of a rush!), but the one weak point in the kit is the rocker springs - they're non-existent, just a lump of plastic. So I felt obliged to use some DIY coils from fuse wire and the rods are brass tube (again, the kit ones are just moulded on..)
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/1%2032%20Hansa%20Brandenburg%20W12/008b8c33e377bd044b41653edc16a3b7.jpg)
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/1%2032%20Hansa%20Brandenburg%20W12/80b1664a3139217efd063a61edde91e8.jpg)
The cockpit is lovely - particularly, the photo etch control cables on the control column - which when you see how small and fine the turnbuckles are, does make me think the ones I usually use with brass tube etc are ridiculously over scale...
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/1%2032%20Hansa%20Brandenburg%20W12/11e23f7361272734d4b9ecd5eda348a5.jpg)
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/1%2032%20Hansa%20Brandenburg%20W12/0ba9ee480fff46deaeeb5931779ecc35.jpg)
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/1%2032%20Hansa%20Brandenburg%20W12/2c299c674f9d35b54e4161243e153aa0.jpg)
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/1%2032%20Hansa%20Brandenburg%20W12/ab305db021d7d7ba6fb9caa3efe3185f.jpg)
It doesn't really show up in the photos - but I tried using a tiny blob of clear epoxy over each of the instrument faces, and I'm really pleased with the result - you'll have to trust me that it looks good in the flesh - just like a slightly bulbous glass face.
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/1%2032%20Hansa%20Brandenburg%20W12/1c6f3ed8e00f33d4cc42603727eaf33a.jpg)
The close ups really show every fleck of dust don't they!
Cheers for looking,
Guy
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You have done a superb job on the floats Guy, they look absolutely exquisite, and the other details you are doing are all looking excellent, the epoxy "blob" over the instruments does a great job. If there is anything to be found the Macro setting will find it :-[
Des.
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Apologies for the close ups - the macro photography, as ever, has highlighted flaws and all :P
Flaws? FLAWS?! Are you serious? Please, everyone in the room that can see his flaws, please do raise your hand. Don't be bashful.
I'm still waiting.
That's what I thought. :D
Guy, your work on this is superlative IMHO.
Warren
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Beautiful stuff, Guy!
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Bit noice, like
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Thanks again..
Don't get me wrong Warren, I'm quite pleased with it - it just never looks as good as I think it does once zoomed in!
Final couple of shots before I close her up...
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/1%2032%20Hansa%20Brandenburg%20W12/ba5f954094ced29eff438dae36e7874a.jpg)
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/1%2032%20Hansa%20Brandenburg%20W12/c48f097cddac12155b8f6b95cbc79f5f.jpg)
Guy
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Yes, I agree. The kit's engine is the part that deserves most love (and update) - you have done that very well. The woodwork is really lovely ( i personally do not like the dark brown shades too much, as the tend to darken the cockpits even further, but that is my personal taste...), especially on the floats. I doubt it can get better then that.
The "window" between observer and Pilot, though, needs some cleanup. Is it dust, cruelly revealled by "Mr. Macro", or did you scratch the window?
Stefan
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Very nice !!! Look great !
Regards
michel
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Hello Guy:
Just catching up a bit here, your work on the wings really captures the transluscency of the fabric. I think you captured it to a tee. The interior and engine work are truly outstanding. This model is growing on me more and more and your work on it is helping it to do so. The work on the floats, again, outstanding.
Best
Mark
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Very nice work, and good to see your darker interpretation of the woodwork.
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terrific work on your interior! I love the look of your wood grain ( Floats and Interior),and your panel is excellent! Lovely work to date.
RAGIII
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Exzellent work and painting to all stuft.
Martin
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Thanks chaps,
Yes, I agree. The kit's engine is the part that deserves most love (and update) - you have done that very well. The woodwork is really lovely ( i personally do not like the dark brown shades too much, as the tend to darken the cockpits even further, but that is my personal taste...), especially on the floats. I doubt it can get better then that.
The "window" between observer and Pilot, though, needs some cleanup. Is it dust, cruelly revealled by "Mr. Macro", or did you scratch the window?
Stefan
Hi Stefan,
I think it's just how thick the plastic is - not helped by the macro photography. If it was scaled up - it would be about 4 inches thick :P if it was Bo or Bertl's build they would have replaced it with thin poly sheet - but it does look ok to me unmagnified.
Guy
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I would imagine the original window got dusty, dirty, smudged, etc. The rear window on the rag top of my old 1970 TR6 sure wasn't pristine. :)
Warren
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Ooh I'd like a TR6 8) I've been looking everywhere the last few months for a nice classic but came to the conclusion all the ones I wanted were silly prices ::)
Just a final thought on CDL....
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/1%2032%20Hansa%20Brandenburg%20W12/cae620669f4e085f7b0adc2311dc3cf0.jpg)
Guy
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Guy, I freely admit I cried when I wrecked mine, the insurance company totaled it, and my insurance agent's son was seen driving it a month later. Hmmmmmmm. ??? ??? I was only 17, and full of myself.
Nice CDL image!
Warren
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I've got the fuselage together :)
I've said before, but I do find seams very hard to make disappear completely - it seems such a basic part of modelling! Sand it to death :P/ superglue the seam/ Mr Surfacer 500 the seam/ drown it in Mr Surfacer 1200... It goes eventually, but does anyone have any top tips?
I wasn't sure how to do the fuse. Apparently it was plywood panelled - and painted dark brown (on the prototypes at least). But I think it would look a bit rubbish if it was just painted dark brown. I could do it a light ply, but not sure that would look right either, so I think I'm going to go for a dark wood varnished look - probably not correct, but I'm claiming 'artistic licence' ::)
I've given a nod towards panelling by a couple of varying shades on the fuse...
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/1%2032%20Hansa%20Brandenburg%20W12/d5c2114ea874a881c8699dd56a268975.jpg)
I've also touched up the lower wings as per you're recommendations ;) it does actually look a lot better - thanks RB..
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/1%2032%20Hansa%20Brandenburg%20W12/0e8e079f9edbc2b230bda422f3241604.jpg)
Hopefully the fuse will turn out ok ???
Guy
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Man, you are cookin' with gas! This all looks great!
Would love to see that same CDL plane from above just to see how much of the interior wood work is "visible".
Cheers from NYC,
I had a '78 baby blue Fiat spider (with matching Disco clothes to match). Sold it to a kid when I moved to NYC and he rolled it a few weeks later. That was the only time I've been glad someone wasn't wearing a set belt as he was thrown clear. I cried, too, Warren.
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Wonderful, wonderful work Guy!
I'd cry too if I had owned disco clothes then too Michael. ;) ;) :P :-*
Warren
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The touch up on the wing cross and ribs looks great! I am envious of your paint work!
RAGIII
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Thank you for providing the updated photo of the wing's upper side. I think the cross looks much better now.
Stefan
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Well, I've seen some CDL in my time, but this takes the biscuit! Beautiful work, Guy!!
:o
Von B
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The wing is very impressive ;)
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Hi Guy,
One word.... awesome. Hat off for you and me, well I'm feeling very small!
Kind regards
Patrick
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You made a beautiful and subtle paint effect, thanks for sharing.
Dric
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The touch up on the CDL is spot on. I'll be watching the next installment to see the "paneling for seaplanes" episode, I'm sure it will be interesting.
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Outstanding work on the see-through effect of the CDL, Guy!
Cheers,
Bud
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Fantastic CDL. Looks reaslly good.
James
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Hello to all,
Very nice effect on the wing. Excellent !
Best regards.
Alain.
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Just went back and read this thread from the beginning. Really, really well thought out and inspirational stuff. Bravo.
Makes me want to tear into mine.
Cheers from NYC,
Michael
PS Warren, the point was not to burn the Disco clothes, the point was to burn up the dance floor wearing them.
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Thanks guys ;)
Been away this week so a temporary pause in proceedings - but I have oiled up the fuse (pictures next week). Quite pleased with the results although the dreaded seam has suddenly reappeared having disappeared! I try to be sparing with the glue not to make a mess, but I think this is the wrong approach.. In future I'm going to apply the glue liberally and let it all ooze out - and sand that. The problem is it's not a gap but just a faint line that fillers/ super glue etc just don't adhere to. The sanding process just takes the filler away leaving the original line ::) oh well...
Guy
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Good luck with your intended repair (at least this is how i understand your post, that you are trying to fix the reappeared seamline, no?)
Stefan
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Good luck with your intended repair (at least this is how i understand your post, that you are trying to fix the reappeared seamline, no?)
Stefan
Hi Stefan,
It was so faint I figured the lines of 'wood' grain would hide it so I went ahead - wrong! :P
It's a shame because the finish is exactly how I pictured it - I've tried to capture it in the top photo but it only shows in certain lights. I'm now left with the dilemma of whether to leave it or not. I've got an eye on ScaleModelWorld this year and it seems pointless taking a model with a beginners seam on top :-\ but I tried everything I could first time around and I just couldn't get it to go.... I've also had a little 'creep' of clear under the masking onto the metal areas which is causing me another headache.
Perhaps I could FedEx it to Bo? ;)
Anyway, here are the pictures..
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/1%2032%20Hansa%20Brandenburg%20W12/e3988060624786c3528e8b67405ae60d.jpg)
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/1%2032%20Hansa%20Brandenburg%20W12/ee5340dde0d3826b042762133f41b0d9.jpg)
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/1%2032%20Hansa%20Brandenburg%20W12/717d8470e21f32b72be9477ad0f90d56.jpg)
Guy
Ps I'm getting fed up with the dust in the macro shots so I've ordered an anti-static cloth - it's a vinyl record one but it should do the job, right?
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Guy....take a deep breath.
In reverse order:
Dust: Yes, the LP anti-static cloth will do the job as will a tack cloth like those sold in paint stores.
Creep: Using a really good magnifier to carefully observe the progress, can you use a new scalpel to scrape away any of the color that bled under the masking tape?
Seam: Chris (Big Blue) had a similar re-occurring problem with the dorsal seam on his Eindecker but he eventually solved it.
Your woodwork on the fuselage is amazing. I can't wait to see what you do with the wood on the Felixstowe. Highest congratulations one what you've achieved. Stick with it and they will tremble when you set this beauty down at ScaleModelWorld.
Cheers from NYC,
Michael
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The problem is it's not a gap but just a faint line that fillers/ super glue etc just don't adhere to. The sanding process just takes the filler away leaving the original line ::) oh well...
Oh man do I feel your pain. Virtually every fuselage seam I create goes through some version of this... join, fill, sand, dismay over the microscopic residual line. I am going through some version of that right now on my D.VII. Bo gave me a suggestion that I will pass along:
Regarding the seams, I find it helps to chamfer the edges of the seams prior to filling (I learned this doing auto body work. Also hanging drywall :) ).
Filler is softer than the plastic and will tend to erode into a trench as you feather it. The chamfered edge gives the filler something to hang onto as it tapers off. Seems counterintuitive to make an even bigger gap to fill, but it works.
(http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh640/UncleTony1917/37a95f04a7ff105e987bc53c77b8c201_zps5da2230d.jpg)
I'll confess that I tried it on the aforementioned D.VII, but am still doomed to multiple cycles of fill & sand; perhaps I was too timid with my chamfering....
Regarding the potential for repair post painting: as Michael mentioned, I did manage to repair a re-appearing seam post painting... twice. I applied and sanded multiple coats of clear to fill the gap, and then added a final light coat of paint to blend it in. This may be a bit trickier with that lovely wood grain, but perhaps some version of clear coats with a bit of oil paint over the top will blend it in.
Good luck; I love what you have done so far and would hate for you to not feel completely happy with it. I'll tell you that I can't see it in the pictures, but I know from experience that that is little comfort when you know it is there.
Chris
p.s. please share any solution you find!
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Guy.
Love what you're acheiving here.
Ref the seam, more for future ref really. I'm sure you know most this already so I don't want you to think I'm trying to teach *Grannie to blow eggs* as they say.
I found myself that seams have reappeared after time, I picked up from various places that sometimes the glue shrinks back as it dries, sometimes this takes weeks to finally dry.
Some over apply glue to the seam and let it bubble out like a weld cutting away the dry excess later.
Me I back the fuselage joint with some scrap stock (mainly for strength and stop resplitting while handling. Once the cement has dried and cut/sanded back and if it seems smooth I tend to wipe everything over with thinners. Apply primer etc and let it settle while doing something else. Then sand and check again. I've found paint seems to shrink the seam sometimes when filled too.
If I've had reason to think a seam is going to be bothersome mask along its length each side and run a bead of thin Cyano along. Chamfering as Chris suggested is a fantastic idea. (now you have the opposite problem as once the Cyano is dry it is harder than the surrounding plastic so you sand/cut/adse it back carefully.)
Hope this helps.
Keith
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Thanks chaps,
That's all very helpful ;) I think I'm going to leave it but keep dousing it in Klear until it disappears - it must do eventually?!
I still think that on reflection - having enough glue in the joint to ooze out - let thoroughly dry then sand should technically sort it out - but I'll have to experiment with what you've told me...
Metal cowlings are next on the list :)
Guy
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Very nice Guy.
Martin
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I think that Keith has hit the nail on the head. (Except for the part about Granny and her eggs which doesn't translate into American English.)
FWIW, high end cabinet makers strive to use non-shrinking adhesives for this very reason. I have had art pieces show a seam fully six months after being finished. It's not cool when the piece has already been delivered to a collector.
I think a few factors are coming into play. I don't claim to be an expert but I wonder if:
1. The glue we use for styrene shrinks upon drying...and that it can, in fact, take a long time to fully cure, some people say months.
2. Filler on top of that glue will shrink as the glue below it shrinks leaving a visible gap. The paint follows suit.
3. As Bo pointed out, the filler is softer then the surrounding styrene and so the filled gap is deepened further as the softer filler is sanded away.
4. I wonder if all of the glue joints on our models experience this same shrinkage but that because of it's level of exposure, the problem with the dorsal seam on the fuselage is just more obvious?
I know some gents who will only use CA as a cement because of it's hardness. I wonder if it also has non-shrinking capacities?
Dousing it with more Klear may do the trick...or, not to be the voice of doom, it may just follow the same pattern.
I do not know if Klear is impervious to CA, but, if it is:
What if you fully seal the paint coat with Klear.......then run a bead of super thin CA along the seam and wipe it back across the grain so the excess remains in the seam......then sand it ever so lightly....then reapply more Klear. Apply the same number of Klear coats to all the similarly painted areas after giving them a very slight sanding to increase bonding ability. That will also help build the visual depth and increase the feeling of figure in the wood. Then wax the painted surfaces...doesn't Tamiya make wax for models? This will kill any orange peel or nubins of dust and give you a gorgeously flat clear finish which will look like in scale varnished wood. I just tried the waxing trick on the cockpit surround of my Pup and was amazed at what a difference it made in the scale look of the finish. Agreed, the materials are different but the concepts are no different than restoring the finish on a high-end piece of furniture.
Can you test this idea on an unexposed area? Maybe the bottom of one of the floats??
Between what you've done with the CDL and the wood, this is IMHO, an exceptional build you've got going.
Cheers
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Thanks Michael,
Lots of great ideas - I hadn't heard of a Tamiya wax?
It does seem to be getting slightly better with multiple thick coats of Klear - I would never have built up so many layers before but an interesting by product of this is, as you've mentioned, a great depth to the wood effect - looks a lot more realistic! :D possibly over shiny now but period pictures of brand new aircraft were very shiny. Although it looks a bit more like a table now than an aircraft! ;D I don't think the super glue will work because there's nothing for it to get into really - but again, I may experiment.
The curious thing for me is that sometimes I get a flawless join and others, a visible seam having not done anything different in the approach. But I do at least feel I have a better understanding now of 'joins'... Thanks :)
Guy
Ps my worst joins to tackle are the flat fuselage ones like the undersides of the W.12 but frankly, I now cheat! I get some hyper thin plastic card and cut it roughly to shape - glue - trim - sand to blend in and, Voila! Perfect non seam :D Just don't tell anyone :-X
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Here's what I just found on line:
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa155/Entau/Tutorial/DSCN4363.jpg) (http://s203.photobucket.com/user/Entau/media/Tutorial/DSCN4363.jpg.html)
I did not realize that they made compound, as well. This is super news for anyone wanting to replicate the look of a gloss finish without the brassiness.
I know you are aware of "scale" shiny--ness. A lot of model builders are not and they put a gleaming glossy finish on a model car and it just does not look right, even if the real thing gleams like a diamond. The level of gloss is just as accountable to the effect of scale as the choice of paint colors; because of scale, a model 18" from one's eye has to look as if it's actually yards away and the atmosphere between the viewer and the object affects the level of color saturation, etc. Basically, a red shirt when viewed up close appears red-der than one down the street. In the same manner, a shiny Corvette right in your driveway appears shiny and glossier than one down the street.
I believe Klear is the same as Future....an acrylic floor polish. Therefore it produces a really hard finish and can be compounded and waxed. I would really encourage you to give it a try in a hidden area after the Klear has had a few days to really harden. Any finish will benefit from extra hardening time before being worked on. If I'm doing a varnish or French polish (shellac) finish on a table, I give it a full 200 hours to fully harden before I start polishing it. Certainly, acrylics, such as Klear, dry much, much faster than resin finishes, but they can still benefit from being allowed to really harden.
IMHO, your W. 12 is the perfect candidate for a glowing, but not glossy, finish.
I hope I don't sound like I'm preaching.
Cheers,
Michael
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I can't add a great deal to this conversation as it relates to addressing the seam, but, it is my opinion that styrene cement joins do shrink when they dry. My "evidence" comes from armour modelling. With individual link tracks for an AFV my preferred method is to assemble the running gear, lay out the track with the links together and then glue the joints with Tamiya Extra thin. The tracks then get left for 20-30 minutes. At that time the joins will hold together but still be flexible enough to arrange around the running gear. Once in place around the running gear you then leave that to dry for 24 hours. I started leaving a little more slack than needed with this method because I found that after 24 hours the tracks were much tighter than they had been, indicating to me they had shrunk. Others have mentioned the same thing happening to them as well.
Matt
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Guy,
It's hard for me to find words to describe your painting and finish on this a/c, it's just beautiful, and like many build threads on here, I'm learning so much.
I'm sorry to hear of your seam issue. I had something similar, but somehow beat it on my first complete build a few years back. Funny thing about the chamfering: the first time I ever used putty as a kid, I chamfered the fuselage seams because, in my middle school mind, I couldn't see how I could get the putty in there without making a trench for it.
@ Michael, "Teaching Granny to suck eggs" translates perfectly well into American English. I've heard it my whole life. Man, I thought you grew up in the South for heaven's sake man! :o ;D ;)
Warren
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This has nothing to do with filling seams so my apologies to all you kind folks while I scold my brother.......who is obviously a cracker.....
Well now, Warren, shame on you son. You are going to make all these yankees think we Southern folk don't know how to read.....go back and look at what Keith wrote and you will not find the word "suck" in it. Hence my confusion. Peel your eyes, pardner. Besides....my people are descended from Jamestown gentry and did not resort to using such common expressions...y'all.
But darlin', we must have lunch.
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Bless your heart, you've been up there too long. ;D
Y'all can go back to talk of wax, seams, putty, paint, and floor wax now. :)
Warren
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LOL
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I know you are aware of "scale" shiny--ness. A lot of model builders are not and they put a gleaming glossy finish on a model car and it just does not look right, even if the real thing gleams like a diamond. The level of gloss is just as accountable to the effect of scale as the choice of paint colors; because of scale, a model 18" from one's eye has to look as if it's actually yards away and the atmosphere between the viewer and the object affects the level of color saturation, etc. Basically, a red shirt when viewed up close appears red-der than one down the street. In the same manner, a shiny Corvette right in your driveway appears shiny and glossier than one down the street.
IMHO, your W. 12 is the perfect candidate for a glowing, but not glossy, finish.
I hope I don't sound like I'm preaching.
Not at all Michael - I've never been a fan of 'glossy' models either - but this one has built up a gloss by default! I must admit, that I can't see how to reduce the gloss now without taking away the nice 'depth' effect.. I'll carry on and see how the overall thing looks ???
As for the wax and polishing compounds - I would imagine they're aimed at auto modellers - I can't really see a use for aero modellers? Although it may be worth experimenting on a bare metal finish I guess..
Thanks again for everyone's input - very helpful. I didn't realise the glue shrinks - although I thought the way it works was to 'melt' the plastic and then the two pieces to effectively weld together...
Guy
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Ps my worst joins to tackle are the flat fuselage ones like the undersides of the W.12 but frankly, I now cheat! I get some hyper thin plastic card and cut it roughly to shape - glue - trim - sand to blend in and, Voila! Perfect non seam :D Just don't tell anyone :-X
Bah! You're cheating! You should really go the "hard way"; take it as an opportunity to test the seam removal proposals that where made here.
Stefan
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I must admit, that I can't see how to reduce the gloss now without taking away the nice 'depth' effect..
As for the wax and polishing compounds - I would imagine they're aimed at auto modellers - I can't really see a use for aero modellers?
Well, I wish I could be there to show you that you can indeed take away the brassy shininess and overt gloss without affecting the visual depth at all. Indeed, you will increase the feeling of visual depth. That is exactly what a fine furniture finisher does and that this is a model makes no difference. It's all about the physics.
As for the wax and compounds, I am sure Tamiya is indeed catering them to the auto modelers but a surface is a surface regardless of what type of vehicle it is applied to.
Good luck with it.
Cheers from NYC,
Michael
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Thanks again Michael,
How do I go about reducing the shininess? Just a satin varnish?
G
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I apologize if I have confused the situation by throwing too much information at you. I work with paints and finishes and abrasives all day long and I'm pretty passionate about it all.
The last thing you want to do is add anything more to what is already there. You can reduce the shininess by using compound and then wax to abrade it. It may seem counterintuitive that waxing something will reduce the shine but that is exactly what it will do in this particular instance.
I really encourage you to go back and rereadmy previous posts and then get hold of some of the Tamiya compound and see if that does not work for you. It is also possible that if you have a cream type toothpaste, not a gel, it will do the same thing for you.
I know this all sounds a little bit crazy but,if done properly, you will get a superior finish that looks like a new really doped plywood covered aircraft.
Cheers from NYC, Michael
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Ah I see.. Sorry, I got the wrong end of the stick! I thought the wax would make even shinier! It's already giving me a headache from the shine as it is!
More experimenting required...
Guy
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Fuselage almost finished - looks ok from a distance but bit disappointed - Its had too many layers on it - but on the up side - the Seam's disappeared!
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/1%2032%20Hansa%20Brandenburg%20W12/4bea49c4b9720e6a30d77e479ca7e383.jpg)
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/1%2032%20Hansa%20Brandenburg%20W12/becd7cc3280ac906c6ca0f7a4a195c43.jpg)
Guy
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That looks pretty neato to me, Guy!
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Looking really nice Guy, I love the dark colour you have used.
Des.
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It's really a great work :D
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Looks awfully good from my vantage point, as well, Guy!
Cheers,
Bud
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Guy,
I'm sorry you're disappointed, but as others have stated, it looks great from here.
Warren
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Very nice choose of colour and painting.
Martin
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Looking mighty fine, Guy. I really like what you've produced so far, great work!
Cheers,
Lance
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Macro/close up photography usually shows all of the little glitches such as paint build up/ a little thick. I DON"T see it here! Looks fantastic to me !!!
RAGIII
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I would be able if i were able to produce such a fuselage. I don't think there is any need to feel diappointed!
S.
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Thanks for all the encouragement - much appreciated :D
Finally coming together - lower wings on & I've test fitted the top wing and floats - the fit is ridicuously good - snaps together like Lego! Amazing engineering :o
Guy
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/Mobile%20Uploads/image-1.jpg) (http://s882.photobucket.com/user/Gisbod/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image-1.jpg.html)
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Very very nice! I see the Felixstowe build thread is very near ;)
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The CDL wings, the metallic parts and the dark fuselage make for a very interesting modell. A lot to be seen for the ol' eye.
Most impressive.
Stefan
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It is lovely Guy! Well done
Kind regards
Patrick
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Excellent subtle shading and translucent effect! Very well done!!
Congratulations,
Jörg
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Rockin'!
Keep going!!
Michael
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Funny undercarriage if you ask me...
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/1%2032%20Hansa%20Brandenburg%20W12/3813133abd1625f821d16460f0926483.jpg)
Guy
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Funny, but very lovely!
Cheers,
Bud
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Looks like a flying Chris-Craft!
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love the wood work....
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Wonderful Guy. Nice and clean and showing your talents clearly.
Kind regards
Patrick
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Beautiful wood effects Guy. What did you use on the metal caps and brackets? They really stand out and give the assembly a very crisp and polished look. I'm looking forward to seeing the assembled components, this is going to be a really impressive package!
Cheers,
Lance
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Beautiful wood effects Guy. What did you use on the metal caps and brackets? They really stand out and give the assembly a very crisp and polished look. I'm looking forward to seeing the assembled components, this is going to be a really impressive package!
Cheers,
Lance
Hello Lance, nothing special - just Vallejo Aluminium hand painted...
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That is one beautiful looking float assembly guy, as I said before, the wood colour is superb, do you mind explaining what you did to achieve that particular wood colour please :) :)
Des.
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Agreed on how awesome the floats and fuselage has come out - I would also be interested in steps you took to get the smooth dark wood appearance!
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That is one beautiful looking float assembly guy, as I said before, the wood colour is superb, do you mind explaining what you did to achieve that particular wood colour please :) :)
Des.
Again, nothing special Des - just a mid stone base, bit of preshading then a combination of oils trying to blend in lighter areas on the open areas and darker in the recesses. Nothing specific..
Guy
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Fantastic wood work. If I didn't already love the work you've done this would be the kicker.
James
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I know I keep saying it, but this is really beautiful.
Warren
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Gorgeous work! Lovely woodwork!
RAGIII
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Funny undercarriage if you ask me...
Ok, i'll bite and ask: Why funny? It looks pretty, but pretty normal to me.
S.
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Funny undercarriage if you ask me...
Ok, i'll bite and ask: Why funny? It looks pretty, but pretty normal to me.
S.
Sorry Stefan - childish English humour meaning it hasn't got wheels... :P
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I do enjoy your paintwork, very nice build. I can see mine moving up a notch or two in the pile.
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Very fine work.
Martin
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Beautifully done so far sir :)
Terri
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Outstanding Guy:
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Pretty much finished ;)
Just waiting on a Master Barrels rear MG - the first one came in the post squashed flat... So just a few sneaky photos prior to posting in the completed models section.
Super, super kit - I would thoroughly recommend it to all - great kit to start with due the great fit & limited rigging, but it's a really different, interesting build too.
My only teeny gripe is the wing joins to facilitate a choice between a large or small cutout at the centre rear - but only because I'm lazy...
Would you believe the seam has suddenly reappeared?! Jeeeez ::)
My other major faux-pas was dust - there's a ton of it trapped in between the 50 layers of Klear trying to eliminate the seam and building up the gloss finish on the wings. I've dismantled my workbench area this afternoon and have been dusting/ vacuuming and wiping down as a result... :P
Thanks for following along.. Much appreciated..
Guy
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/1%2032%20Hansa%20Brandenburg%20W12/bcf1b19d97fcef3278d161e4d98d0e8e.jpg)
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/1%2032%20Hansa%20Brandenburg%20W12/a2566f4d64c86e654dbf47a54746aedf.jpg)
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/1%2032%20Hansa%20Brandenburg%20W12/531dc680709a36dc3fdbdec960803750.jpg)
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/1%2032%20Hansa%20Brandenburg%20W12/34a969bbd56a79cff5283b39bf89a886.jpg)
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/Gisbod/1%2032%20Hansa%20Brandenburg%20W12/5846e0ad3a659f7c06dea85a1520b95d.jpg)
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Outstanding work!!
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Stunning build.
Martin
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That is just CRAZY GOOD! :o
VB
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Spectacular effects! This model makes me want to build mine.
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I don't know what to add except that the see through/ lighting effect is amongst, if not THE, best I HAVE EVER SEEN! BEAUTIFUL!!
RAGIII
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RAGIII nailed it. I thought it was a free flight model covered with tissue at first look...
Simply amazing stuff. I could learn a lot from you! ! ;) ;)
Cheers and bending on both knees...Dan
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Yeah, that's spectacular Guy. Well done.
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Guy, I can't add more to what my buddies have already said. Truly astonishing effect.
Cheers,
Bud
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Guy,this is lookin' almost like the real thing,but please,tell me what seam you're talkin' 'bout?!
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Absolutely stunning Guy, this is the best example I have seen of the tranparent effect, brilliantly done.
Des.
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The see-through-effect is the best I have seen so far. I am very impressed.
Stefan
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Thanks, that's very kind of everyone :D yep, I'm pretty pleased with the translucent wings - that's one for the locker.
Guy,this is lookin' almost like the real thing,but please,tell me what seam you're talkin' 'bout?!
The fuselage seam - it's been a phantom presence throughout the build - disappearing and reappearing at random :-\ Shame, but you live and learn...
Guy
Ps started the Felixstowe today - Awesome!
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Really beautiful Guy, just beautiful.
Warren
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Guy, modeling and painting of the highest level. Great respect for what you accomplished. The bar is raised again! Poor me.
Kind regards
Patrick
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Simplywonderful and inspiring. Thank you, Guy!
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A beautiful model. :)
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Thank you again ;)
Still waiting for the barrel... :P
G
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Hello to all,
I agree, a very realistic effect. Amazing !!
Best regards.
Alain.
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Hello!!!
This is just outstanding finish!!! And definitely a lot of inspiration too!!! :)
Lukas
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It's gorgeous Guy. I'm sure I can smell varnish.
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Yep, I agree, that's the best transparent effect that's not actually transparent I've ever seen. I watched how you did it in the thread but I still have no idea how you actually made it work!
George
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Guy, the model is brilliant. Goes to show what
real talent can do. All I am able to do is gape at
your "translucent" wings for example. The best
I've seen yet, and will never see on my models! ;) ;D
Beautiful work, my friend.
Cheers,
Ernie :)
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I'll be saving this build as 'the' exemplar of such a finish. Wonderful.
Regards
Russell
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Thank you to everyone,
You're alll very encouraging!
The MG came today - I'm away for 5 days from tomorrow, but if I can get it finished before I go - I'll try and get some proper shots posted ;)
Cheers
Guy
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Just gorgeous......congratulations!
You have inspired me. I want to try my hand at the W.12 prototype.
Were you able to lay your hands on any detailed photos other than those in the Datafile???
Cheers from NYC,
Michael
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Hello Michael,
Thanks for your input along the way, very helpful.. ;)
No, just what was in the Datafile. I'd love someone to do the prototype properly - I think it would be a really cool project!
Guy
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wow!
I love this aircraft, and the painting work you did is really amazing, congratulations!!