forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com
WW1 Aircraft Modeling => WW1 Aircraft Information/Questions => Topic started by: Squiffy on December 17, 2014, 01:36:42 AM
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Afternoon, chaps.
The 72nd scale Eastern Express Nie 11 seems to be unavailable at the moment so I'm wondering how much work would be involved to turn an Eduard Nie 17 into an 11 or 16.
I know the engine cowls are different but how different is the fuselage itself?
Are there differences in the wings?
etc...
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N.17 had larger wings for one thing...
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Thanks, Bo. I guess it's a non-starter then. :(
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Thanks, Bo. I guess it's a non-starter then. :(
No, no, no, no! You're giving up too easy! >:( >:( Stop that. :)
For many years, the only 1/72nd Nieuport game in town was the ancient Revell offering. (Long story VERY short, that's one reason it became my pet a/c to model. More later if you're interested.)
I have one (and sadly only one) of the old Rosemont Nie.11 resin fuselages that Barry sold in order to convert the Revell Nie.17 into an 11/16. It also came with plans/instructions on how to convert the Nie.17 wings. It's buried somewhere in the man cave, and I'll gladly dig it out for you to scan it if you're interested.
I'm a bit of a Nieuport freak Squiffy, but all of my books, etc. are buried at the moment. I hope to clear the bench this Christmas and get back to work on my Noop builds.
Warren
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Thanks, Bo. I guess it's a non-starter then. :(
It's buried somewhere in the man cave, and I'll gladly dig it out for you to scan it if you're interested.
Even if he isn't, I certainly am, if it's not an awful bother.
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why not cast copies of the impossible to get fuselage?
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why not cast copies of the impossible to get fuselage?
I've thought of doing that, but I've never cast a part before, and I honestly didn't think there would be any interest.
If y'all can talk me through it, I'll sure give it a try.
Warren
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It also came with plans/instructions on how to convert the Nie.17 wings. It's buried somewhere in the man cave, and I'll gladly dig it out for you to scan it if you're interested.
Thanks, Warren. I'm definitely interested. Whether I can actually do it is another matter.
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Well, I've got 330 Job Corps students to put on buses and take to the airport or bus station tomorrow morning at oh-dark-thirty, and then the company Christmas party on Friday. After that I'm taking some much needed vacation for a week, so I'll hunt them down, post pics/scans, and we'll all talk.
Sound good?
Warren
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Camp Breckenridge? I converted a Revell Nie 17 to an 11 about 3 decades ago using an article and drawings in an old issue of Scale Models magazine. It was not difficult. As I recall, it involved reducing the wingspans, deepening the inaccurate Revell fuselage, and reshaping the cowl. I think Classic Planes also did a nice vac kit of the 11.
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No Rob, not Earl C/Camp Breckenridge (they have 1,000+ students), but Muhlenberg. I'm back, been at it since 3:00 AM, and I'm exhausted.
Rob, do you remember the issue of Scale Models in which that article appeared? I and others, I am sure, would like to know. (The Toko kit has its own inaccuracies, etc., so converting the Revell isn't that bad of a trade-off in my book.)
I'll try to dig out the Rosemont conversion this weekend.
Warren
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i cast stuff all the time its pretty easy in principal. what ive found is the most important thing is designing the mold to take advantage of the shape of the part and neatness counts. i know a guy who has been casting for a hundred years it seems and he does decent work but he doesnt like to take the time and effort to imbed the part in clay to get the mold seam where it virtually disappears etc. i like to make a smooth bed of clay then dig out a recess and imbed the part and nicely neatly smooth the clay so that it meets the piece at a square angle or in some cases like the one i am about to do the top and sides of the fuselage will be in one part of the mold and the bottom will be on the other part this way the mold splits at the lower edge along the corner leaving minimal cleanup for the piece after casting. you might could make a 1 piece mold by ca glueing a roundish spacer on the nose of your nieuport basically the firwall. stand it on end then use a clay sausage to stick it to a flat surface tail pointing up. build a box leaving an inch or so around the fuselage and close to that past the tail end. use clay to seal the box(many guys use legos) so that the silicone doesnt ooze out. once cured you just take it all apart and remove the original. pour resin inside and then you can make copies. this assumes the fuselage is one piece. if i could see what your trying to do i could advise better.below is a primer:
http://www.kitmaker.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=features&file=view&artid=469
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The link Scott gave above was helpful to me, too.
I wrote up some notes awhile back based on my noob experiences here:
http://forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com/index.php?topic=2696.0
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Thanks pards. When I post the scans, I'll post a pic of the fuselage and I thought y'all could advise me better then.
Warren
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I don't recall which issue of the magazine and I no longer have a copy of the article. However, I think the conversion could be accomplished easily enough with a good set of scale drawings.
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for sure. post a photo and i can say how i would aproach it. it was easier than i expected to cast parts. my first cast i took several things like seats and other various bits and stuck em in lumps of clay, built a lego box and poured silicone on. a simple 1 part mold. the 1st pour had some voids where the resin didnt reach cuz i just poured it in. i learned to kinda burp the 1 part molds by squishing and deforming the shape and trapped air bubbles out. also i have a brass rod witha rounded off head to coax bubbles from corners and such. i still had probs getting tiny details to come out so i got a pressure pot and solved the problem. its fun casting and a great tool to have at your disposal.
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OK Squiffy, ALBATROS1234, Procopius, Bo, Rob, and others who may have an interest:
- First, apologies for being so tardy with this. I plead "Christmas Holiday Busy-ness" along with this conversion set wasn't where I thought it was in the man cave/closet*. Better late than never I suppose. ::)
- The set, according to the instructions, is for the old ESCI Nie.17, but I'm sure it will work with the ancient Revell kit, which can be had on evil-bay for a song or not much more. To be truthful, one could also utilize an Eduard "Weekend Edition" Nie.17 if one wanted to. There are certainly advantages to that.
- The old Revell/ESCI kit suffered from an incorrect wing angle, and the instructions advise you to correct that. Up to each individual I say, your madness may vary.
- This is some work, naturally, but the Toko kit suffers from some inaccuracies as well, so you've got work cut our for you either way. As I said, to each his own.
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff12/dixieflyer500/Roseparts%2072nd%20%20Nieuport%2011%20Conversion/scan0013_zps19d93ef2.jpg) (http://s242.photobucket.com/user/dixieflyer500/media/Roseparts%2072nd%20%20Nieuport%2011%20Conversion/scan0013_zps19d93ef2.jpg.html)
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff12/dixieflyer500/Roseparts%2072nd%20%20Nieuport%2011%20Conversion/scan0014_zps97eb0b3e.jpg) (http://s242.photobucket.com/user/dixieflyer500/media/Roseparts%2072nd%20%20Nieuport%2011%20Conversion/scan0014_zps97eb0b3e.jpg.html)
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff12/dixieflyer500/Roseparts%2072nd%20%20Nieuport%2011%20Conversion/DSCN2303_zps3afeec8f.jpg) (http://s242.photobucket.com/user/dixieflyer500/media/Roseparts%2072nd%20%20Nieuport%2011%20Conversion/DSCN2303_zps3afeec8f.jpg.html)
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff12/dixieflyer500/Roseparts%2072nd%20%20Nieuport%2011%20Conversion/DSCN2302_zps265696d1.jpg) (http://s242.photobucket.com/user/dixieflyer500/media/Roseparts%2072nd%20%20Nieuport%2011%20Conversion/DSCN2302_zps265696d1.jpg.html)
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff12/dixieflyer500/Roseparts%2072nd%20%20Nieuport%2011%20Conversion/DSCN2301_zps0f01a59d.jpg) (http://s242.photobucket.com/user/dixieflyer500/media/Roseparts%2072nd%20%20Nieuport%2011%20Conversion/DSCN2301_zps0f01a59d.jpg.html)
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff12/dixieflyer500/Roseparts%2072nd%20%20Nieuport%2011%20Conversion/DSCN2300_zps8bec90f6.jpg) (http://s242.photobucket.com/user/dixieflyer500/media/Roseparts%2072nd%20%20Nieuport%2011%20Conversion/DSCN2300_zps8bec90f6.jpg.html)
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff12/dixieflyer500/Roseparts%2072nd%20%20Nieuport%2011%20Conversion/DSCN2304_zps54e81424.jpg) (http://s242.photobucket.com/user/dixieflyer500/media/Roseparts%2072nd%20%20Nieuport%2011%20Conversion/DSCN2304_zps54e81424.jpg.html)
The recommended parts list is dated, for certain, however, there are alternatives out there. The fuselage is solid from the partition behind the seat on back.
ALBATROS1234, I'd appreciate your advice on how best to replicate this in terms of how to mold it, etc.
Warren
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let me think on it a day, this could be a bit tricky being the way it is. definately a 2 or 3 part mold. i dug out my toko nie 11 and debated doing some mods and casting it. not for me as i generally stay away from 1/72 but for my friends here.
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Yeah, I thought that one would be kinda tricky myself. As for me, I cannot think of how I can do this with a two part mold. Seems to me I'd have to have a two part mold with a third part as some kind of plug. Too bad Mr. Crofoot is not here to advise us.
Thanks for thinking on it. I'd like to do it if possible.
Warren
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That fuselage would be a very simple scratch-build.
Two sides and a bottom cut to pattern from sheet thin sheet, top pieces from thicker sheet sanded to a rounded form, thin sheet bent over the cockpit and pierced for the opening. Round disc on the nose for a guide, cheekpieces cut to triangles from thick sheet and shaped to section once attached to the model. An Eduard N.17 would provide a proper cowling as well as the needed wing and tail surfaces and such.
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Old man, it's simple for those that scratch-build. ;) ;D I can't speak for Squiffy, but I'm not up to that yet.
Warren
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It would be an extremely simple one to start on, though, Sir. Shapes do not come much easier than this. I strongly suspect it would be easier and simpler just to make the new fuselage, rather than do the major work on the nose needed to convert an N.17 kit fuselage.
When you alter the sweep of the wings, a bit of tweaking would be needed to get the ribs properly aligned with the line of flight, rather than converging a bit on the center.
Either way, doing this would be a fair amount of work, but it does seem doable, and not so much difficult as laborious. I had never seriously considered it before, but now....
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Yep, I had two Revell kits in stages of construction (wings sanded down, new rib tapes applied, etc.) when Eduard finally came out with their Nie.17, so they got put in a box on the shelf. ;) The dihedral issue is one that each individual is going to have to decided for themselves if they want to deal with it or not.
Converting an Eduard Nie.17 would be possible, and I only suggested it for those that might want to go that route.
I'd still like to see about the possibility of recreating this fuselage in resin. I think it would be possible to adapt the Eduard wings and some other bits and pieces from the kit to this.
Warren
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it could be done in a 2 piece theorhetically. you could blank off the cockpit opening with a piece of styrene ca glued in the hole. it should be slightly recessed to preserve the shape of the cockpit opening. next it could be done 2 ways. either double stick tape on a flat surface then stand the fuselage on its nose. you want to keep silicone from running into the nose opening so so sulphur free modelling clay made into skinny sausages around the circumference. try to make this as small as possible. next you need to add the keys. which are alignment helpers. i would use a domed type nut stuck on the double stick tape in 3 to 5 locations surrounding the fuselage which is standing on its nose. or you could make a sort of platform rolled out of the same type clay bout 1/4" or a tad better thick. you would in this case imbed the fuselage standing on its nose as described before. not too deep. just deep enuff to hold it up and prevent the before mentioned leakage. in this case you would key it by useing the blunt end of an exacto style knife to make indentations in your clay base. from here on its the same. you make 4 walls surrounding the fuselage leaving an inch on all sides. some use legos for this, some use mdf or even thick styrene sheet. whatever the case it has to leave adequate space to give some meat to the mold.if you use the double stick tape platform you will have to seal the outer base of you enclosure walls with clay sausages again or else silicone rubber will sneak out along the bottom. if you use a clay base you will square cut away the excess and build your wall from the sub surface not on top the clay platform . this should seal against leaks. i use micro mark mold release it works great, but some people use mineral spirits with vaseline as a mold release. anyway use a large paintbrush to spread mold release on the walls,base, and fuselage and let dry well. next you mix silicone as directed and pour it in. when dry this will be your first part.
when this is dry you flip the mold over. remove the clay platform or tape platform including the clay sealer sausages you used to keep the nose sealed up.i use legos so at this time you extend the wall upward to make an enclosure for part 2. apply a healthy dose of mold release,let dry and then pour part 2. if youve done it right you end up with a plug attached to a block which is keyed to align with the lower half of the mold. you would pour resin in and then insert part 2 of the mold. the plug part squishes out the excess. i usually use a blunt rod and flash light and look to see if any bubbles have got themselves in a corner where they love to form then just gently work/slide part 2 of the mold into the cavity.
once cured this will leave you a rim where the sausages sealed the fuselage that will have to be sanded off or a lip the width of how deep you imbedded the nose if you stuck it in a clay platform. you get me?
the only other way i can think is do a variation of above by making a 3 part mold having a side to side portion and similar nose plug. done this way you would eliminate the nose rim to be sanded but it would be more work on the mold making end. you have to decide if the sanding of the ring from the nose is easier or adding another step to the mold. whichever takes less time and effort being the way of choice. if a 3 part mold is done you would have to use some rubber bands and styrene or other 1/8" board rubber banded to the outer surface of the mold to keep the molds shape. careful not to band to tight it will deform the shape of the finished casting.
i hope this is clearly stated,if not feel free to ask questions.
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Yep, sounds pretty clear to me. Now, to just do it. :) Maybe I'll have time in the coming year.
Warren
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There may be some useful info here:
http://www.wwi-models.org/misc/FrenchWW1/Nieuport/nie1772.html
and here:
http://www.wwi-models.org/misc/FrenchWW1/Nieuport/nie_ref.html
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Thanks for reminding me/us of those Rob, There is a lot of great information there. I think I can remember when Matt created those pages.
It was a happier, more innocent age. ;) ;) :) :)
Of course, and sadly, there's no need to watch for anything coming from Rosemont. :( :'( :'( I sure wish we knew where the masters and molds were for so many of the products Barry carried.
Warren
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You might try pleading your case to Richard @ Aviattic .... He's got a stable of very talented guys put together... If you could demonstrate a demand... Who knows ;)
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Thanks Bo! Richard sure is a great guy, but I'm not sure there is a demand except for us few, weird 1/72nd scale Nieuport freaks. :P ;) I don't know if there are enough of us to justify him setting up a master.
FWIW, I figure if he wants to reproduce anything in 1/72nd that Barry carried at Rosemont, he'd get more mileage out of the Fokker F.I correction set. (I believe I have the remains of one set left that I've put back for a rainy day.)
Warren
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i have a toko 11 that cajun from this forum said he wanted a couple months ago then disappeared. i wonder if i should just cast this when i get a chance and then offer it at cost to a few forum members. basically this is what hr models did. they cast other peoples parts in resin and then sold them as their own kit. anyone whos ever gotten one of their 1/48 resin kits knows this to be true. surprised they never got sued.
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It's certainly worth a try.
Go for it I say.
Warren