forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com
WW1 Aircraft Modeling => WW1 Aircraft Information/Questions => Topic started by: kornbeef on July 13, 2014, 05:16:36 PM
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So.
For future build I have Roden's 1/32 DIII Albatros on order (A few WNW spares to tickle it with too). I understand the aircraft had an upper wing change that shifted the rad (I have both types of upper wings anyway (don't ask how...lol)
That new Osprey book on the D.III is a mine of little gems of info despite the cross section being a little iffy in control set up.
I'm wondering more about the nose cowl and its louvres, if anyone has images to share or can point me to where I might get a better understanding I'd be really grateful.
If anyone knows of any other little differences too of course.
Lastly has anyone worked with FCM decal's I've the set 32014 that covers Voss's plane amongst others and a nice D.Va (OAW) too. They look to first view really well produced in perfect register. I'm just wondering if they have any vices I should watch for.
Any help or even thoughts would be greatly appreciated guys
Cheers Keith
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I've been gathering stuff on this one too... I'll look through what I have when I get home tonight.
I don't think the FCM decals picked up on the larger border of the top heart. Also if you are picky I think the laurel wreath is identical side to side on the decal sheet -- not so on the A/C. The new D.III book points all that up.
All this from memory -- not looking at the decals or the book at the moment as they are 400 miles away:)
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thanks for the heads ups guys.
Looking at the decal sheet after your comments Bo yes, the garland of leaves is different and the blue bows under the swastika are too. Nothing insurmountable of course dealing with the upper heart which may not need addressing if I choose the earlier option of course.
Maybe a little hand painting involved here.
Keith
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I think the Spada Decals are correct, Keith
No idea if they oop or not?
(http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h342/ASKundASK/Verkauf/AlbaDIII4_zps0c3f9296.jpg) (http://s1105.photobucket.com/user/ASKundASK/media/Verkauf/AlbaDIII4_zps0c3f9296.jpg.html)
(http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h342/ASKundASK/Verkauf/AlbaDIII3_zpsf8a8cd50.jpg) (http://s1105.photobucket.com/user/ASKundASK/media/Verkauf/AlbaDIII3_zpsf8a8cd50.jpg.html)
Servus
Bertl
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Thanks for the head up Bertl.
Now I'm thinking I've opened a can of worms.... ::)
The wreath on the photo's clearly crosses the front of the national insignia. On Spada's sheet profile it doesn't but the hearts too far forward so maybe it would all shuffle down right. Incidentally the lovely artwork on the cover of the new Osprey D.II volume is the same.
While we are on, does anyone have any thoughts on the band between the white tail and the wood. Black? red? other? It doesn't look black black in some pictures.
I'm starting to think the other D.III option on the decal sheet may be less contentious but then where's the fun in that? ;)
Keith
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Well I rummaged around the web for Spada decals but got nowhere. Never mind. I did get SWMBO to bid for Kagero's D.I-D.V on Evil bay though.
;D
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Keith,,
FWIW the Kagero "Kaiser's Aces" book (Legends of Aviation Series #1) has a very nice 4 View on the back cover; the band you are wondering about is shown as a mid to dark grey. I note numerous references to the "thin BLACK stripe at the front of the standard JG2 white tail" in various Osprey books which is more likely IMHO and it looks very dark / black in the photos I have seen. Of course, then there's the theory concerning a second similarly painted machine; what fun!! ::)
Cheers,
Lance
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Thanks for the head up Bertl.
Now I'm thinking I've opened a can of worms...
The can where he might have had two DIII?
I'm of the opinion of one aircraft but more than one upper wing from what is shown and documented in the new Osprey book.
TY BTW ;)
Keith.
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looks like you are already ahead of me Keith, but FWIW here is a detail shot of the wreath and hearts from the FCM sheet. Compare to photos pp 50-53 of new D.III book. The decal markings are a bit too regular and of course they were plainly not identical side to side (though similar enough). But you already know all this :)
When I do mine I will probably paint these by hand using the decals as a reference.
I agree the case is very strong for 1 machine, two top wings. The wreath fingerprint is pretty overwhelming.
The FCM decals include national markings and masks for J5 tails. (of course the latter doesn't apply to Voss') A nice set imo; and quite beautifully printed in perfect register and vivid colors by Micro Scale.
(http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh640/UncleTony1917/file_zpsdbce5d9a.jpg)
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While we are on, does anyone have any thoughts on the band between the white tail and the wood. Black? red? other? It doesn't look black black in some pictures.
Definitely black IMO. Standard Jasta Boelcke markings at the time (not JG 2 -- didn't exist yet), and the circumstances of his departure were such that retaining his Jasta Boelcke markings was something of a point of pride. At least that is the prevailing theory -- see GvW Jagdstaffel 2 "Boelcke" and Franks "Jasta Boelcke"
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PS There are some useful observations well worth re-reading in Paolo's Roden D.III Voss build log (http://forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com/index.php?topic=1836.0)
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PSS -- see pp 38 Jagdstaffell 5 vol 1 (Merill) where the author claims that this machine received nearly all its markings at Proville (Jasta B) not Boistrancourt (J5).
The big question is the spinner color. I think black per Jasta B but many will argue for red. Who knows!?
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Just a guess that I have never heard discussed before, but perhaps the spinner was black at jasta B and he repainted it red when he moved to Jasta 5? Would make more sense to me...
Dave
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Ressurecting an old thread here....I have been trying to sort this D III out. I have decided to try to build this with Voss' markings. Do we think the top wing changed colors when it was changed? Would they change the whole top wing, or move the radiator? IF it was a later top wing instaled, would it have been painted in a different way? I know manufacturers painted the wings certain ways through certain production batches. Any thoughts on that? What color do we think the top wing is? Is the Spada decal sheet available anywhere or is it long gone? I have the FCM but it's wrong in so many ways.....
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I think the radiator position change means an entirely different wing was fitted. The wing variants had different internal structures; seems like a highly unlikely field mod.
But I have been wrong a million times before... so just my $.02
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That would make sense.....do we think the cammo is still the light green, brown and dark green? Or would it be different at this stage of the war? Then would the lower wing be original color and the new wing be a new color? I know this is the minutia Bo would think about... :) Plus it would make for an interesting looking paint job. I also had the question, is the elevator on a Albatros DIII the same on a DV?
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That would make sense.....do we think the cammo is still the light green, brown and dark green? Or would it be different at this stage of the war? Then would the lower wing be original color and the new wing be a new color?
I don't have it here, but the newish D.III book by Jim Miller has a pretty extensive discussion on the Voss D.III markings with I think all the known photos-- I would start there; I think it covers the current consensus (if there is such a thing) pretty well. Also there is an extensive build log here (http://forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com/index.php?topic=1836.0) where Dave Douglas and others weighed in on the subject.
I also had the question, is the elevator on a Albatros DIII the same on a DV?
Yep. According to Koloman Mayerhofer the horizontal tailplane is completely interchangeable between all the production Albatros fighters (D.I to D.Va).
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Having seen this old thread coming alive again, I checked the latest publication on Voss and his aircraft (or better: the latest I am aware of), that is Bronnenkants 6th volume in his PLM series, covering Thomsen, Hoeppner, and Voss, published earlier this year (2015).
There are long discussions about why his DIII was always the same aircraft (means: instead of two different aircraft, the "early one with two red hearts", compared to a possible "later one with three red hearts") - it is the same aircraft, form the first production batch. Bronnenkant (and Jim Miller, who did the photographic analysis) agree on an upper wing replacement due to the shifting of the radiator. It is discussed at length when the third red heart might have been added to the fuselage.
But (and that I think is the most important part wrt this thread): Not a single word is lost on a possible repaint of the spinner when Voss was shifted out of JaSta B on May 20th,1917. Bronnenkant thinks the spinner was black and never changed.
Stefan
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Ah, I don't have Vol 6 yet -- must order it as soon as I get home.
Seeing that Voss left the rest of the Jasta B unit marking intact (white tail with black band) it makes sense that he would leave the spinner as it was, too (i.e. black). But ultimately -- who knows?
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With some fiddling It seems like I can graft some Wingnut DV wings on the DIII. I have a WNW DV that I can use as a donor kit to use on this project. Does anyone see any problems with that? The wings seem very similar. I will have to mount the WNW lower wings to the center section piece from Roden so it will fit to the fuselage properly.
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Should work nicely. The D.Va wings and the D.III wings were essentially identical. (Radiator placement aside). Remember D.V wings had aileron controls routed thru upper, not lower wing as D.III and D.Va. Thus ailerons are different in detail. But otherwise yeah, when I get to my D.III I have a donor WNW D.Va to use for wings and horizontal tail surfaces... (Assuming WNW doesn't release a D.III before I get started...)
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they will for sure release one by the time you finish it ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D I'll get started on this asap!
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they will for sure release one by the time you finish it ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D I'll get started on this asap!
hehe, too true
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Should work nicely. The D.Va wings and the D.III wings were essentially identical. (Radiator placement aside). Remember D.V wings had aileron controls routed thru upper, not lower wing as D.III and D.Va. Thus ailerons are different in detail. But otherwise yeah, when I get to my D.III I have a donor WNW D.Va to use for wings and horizontal tail surfaces... (Assuming WNW doesn't release a D.III before I get started...)
So I was looking at the WNW DV and DVa kits and the wing sprues are identical. Because I really no noting about any of this and I'm trying to understand, the ailerons won't have the horn on top on the DIII and the DVa, visually that's the biggest difference? I would assume the rigging will look a little different as well?
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So I was looking at the WNW DV and DVa kits and the wing sprues are identical. Because I really no noting about any of this and I'm trying to understand, the ailerons won't have the horn on top on the DIII and the DVa, visually that's the biggest difference? I would assume the rigging will look a little different as well?
The wings in the kits are identical; the ailerons (and aileron fairings) are different. The D.Va ailerons have a "lever" for the front actuating cable that comes up to it from the lower wing. The D.Va wing also does not have the metal fairing that covers the cables where they pass into the upper wing on the D.Va. The kit wing needs this hole plugged. The WNW kit D.Va also has little adapter shoes that go over the slot in the wings but I think these are also included in the D.V kit.
Nothing at all difficult to adapt, relative to the other changes you are taking on...
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There is the "Possibility" that the radiator will need to be changed to an earlier style compared to the DV/DVa and OAW DIII.
RAGIII
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IS there a kit I can rob this radiator from?
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IS there a kit I can rob this radiator from?
Remember I said "Possibility". I am not going on record as being an expert by any means. While researching DI,DII, and DIII radiators to see if Bos' outstanding drop in product would work I found that All of the DI & DII radiators I could see had a single (strake: Flat portion separating the grills) down the center running cordwise, or 2 running spanwise. It also looked as though the EARLY DIIIs' ( central radiator), and probably those with the offset radiator had the same configuration. Look at the Roden Albatros DIII radiator as it is correct in style, if somewhat oversized. The only confirmed photos I found matching the DV/Va style were OAW built DIIIs'. So in the end I have to say I don't have photos of many DIII radiators so this is a big MAYBE! Perhaps someone with more reference, and expertise, will chime in :-\
RAGIII
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Some Early D.Vs (notably Streich's) had the single strake T&B radiator as well.
I plan on making this as an offering on Flugzeugwerke...
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Some Early D.Vs (notably Streich's) had the single strake T&B radiator as well.
I plan on making this as an offering on Flugzeugwerke...
Really great news Bo! I will need one for my DII!
RAGIII
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I have the Bronnenkant (or as the binding says Bronnnenkant) book, and his color profile seems to be a little different, it has the Top wing painted Red Brown to the left, the dark green in the middle and the light green to the right. The Miller Air Vanguard Osprey book has the top wing painted Dark Green to the left, Red Brown in the Middle and light green to the right. HOWEVER, most things I seen have the light green to the left red brown in the middle, and the dark green to the right! IS there an actual way this should be painted? Was there a factory standard? Was there a way the German Army wanted them painted? In the immortal words of Vinnie Babarino, "I'm like, so confused......."
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AFAIK there is no factory standard, just typical cases identified.
Don't have the latest PLM vol yet (must remedy that) so I can't comment on that, except his notes are usually pretty thorough on his aircraft depictions, both what is and what isn't known...