forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com
WW1 Aircraft Modeling => Under Construction => Topic started by: Dave in Dubai on December 05, 2013, 07:30:37 PM
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(http://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-VXUb1HpIdlc/UqBGp1HwSII/AAAAAAAASOw/TsZAgQvziQc/s1024-no/IMAGE_477.jpg)
Hi,
I am approaching the rigging stage of my WNW Sopwith Snipe and have decided to finish it using the photoetch RAF rigging wires available.
Can anyone tell me what size the wires are and which set I should purchase please?
Many thanks for any information you can provide,
Warmest,
D i D. :)
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It is a great looking Snipe, Dave. So, if I may, please, do not go for PE rigging. It is a guarantee of sagging. Use anything elastic, but not stiff metal strips.
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Sounds like an interesting challenge to me ;)
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I will be curious to see what you come up with Dave. I had no idea that PE
wires would sag...I've never used them. Good luck on that one, my friend.
As for the Snipe, it is beautiful! Wonderful job.
Cheers,
Ernie :)
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Avoid that stuff mate. More problems than it's worth.
Appliance of science is a good bet 8)
Cheers
Dave
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maybe you can use a dental floss instead?
I have never tried it but it`s the only thing I can think of to reproduce tapes used by the British instead of wires...
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I have heard nothing but bad about the PE flat wires Dave, I would keep well away from them for now. Your Snipe looks absolutely beautiful.
Des.
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She's looking fantastic, Dave! Looking forward to seeing her rigged. Please, step away from the pe.
Cheers,
Bud
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Thanks for the comments gentlemen :)
As you can maybe see, I pre-rigged some of the cabane struts by trapping the mono under the top cockpit coaming piece , just before glueing this onto the fuselage.
Having read the Guide to Building WNW volume 1, some of the modellers have used the PE wires to good effect, hence the posting of my original question.
Will now have to think about this for a bit as I know that good results are obtained using Des technique and Uncle Robert's Buckles.
Tail stripe and serial number decals are from Rowan's Snipe set.
Wishing you all a very Merry Christmas :)
(http://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ZqjCiWLPgqw/UpmIr7SEz6I/AAAAAAAASN4/dyoeddSyKtM/s1024-no/IMAGE_474.jpg)
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Hello Dave. This is a lovely piece of work and you've not got too far to go now.
I would also be a member of the avoid the pe flat wire brigade, sagging being the main problem. However, others have given you lots of food for thought.
Seasonal greetings to you too.
Best wishes
Nigel
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Dave,
Running fishing line (Maxima 2lb breaking strain) line through round nosed pliers gives you a nice streamlined look. Patience and care will be required when installing, avoiding twist at all cost! ;)
I hope this helps.
Von Streamlined
(http://www.bobsbuckles.co.uk/Britmod/flying-wires.jpg)
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Great idea Bob,
-thanks very much.
I will try that and report back!
:)
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Dave,
If you do "crack the code" on the PE Version I have a good stock that I'll sell, or even donate to the cause. I've played around with it and decided it's not worth my sanity! I am a great fan of the suppliers' other products, absolutely brilliant, however the Flat Wires are not destined for other then scrap material in my modest little workshop. I could be just hiliting a lack of talent on my part but I just can't get them to work. :-[
Cheers,
Lance
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Thanks Nigel and Lance,
I wish someone could manufacture tailored sets of streamlined wires with the turnbuckles on each end!
Wingnut Wings showed a set of tailorred wires for the SE-5 and Bristol F2-B a few years ago, if I recall correctly, but they never appeared.
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i seem to remember a while back that wnw decided there were to many problems with the type and decided not to make them. the problem is you have to glue one at a time and keep the tension neutral.even gravity causes problems. for instance one guy said he would glue one wire on one side then do one on the opposite side and it would pull the first wire slack. so he tightened it and it pulled the second wire slack. another guy said he turned the plane upside down and rigged the whole thing,he said it wasnt perfect but looked decent,so he flipped it upside right and every wire was bowed. sounds nightmareish to me.
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Still sounds like an interesting challenge to me ;)
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I have heard the same results as what Scott has written, also the variation in air temerature will cause the wires to become slack, I think Scott's description as being a "nightmare" is very apt.
Des.
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Yes, I have absolutely no doubt it is hard. Very hard. Maybe nearly impossible. But truly impossible?
Just saying... Sounds like an interesting challenge to me.
Meaning: if one side goes slack when the other is tightened... Why? Is the PE stretching? Is the cellule deforming? Are the struts deforming? Is there another way to approach the way the the wires are attached or tensioned?
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Nothing is impossible Bo, just really really hard to do. It certainly would be an interesting challenge but not one that I am prepared to take on, maybe some younger more enthusiastic modelers will take it on and come up with a way to tackle it, lets hope so.
Des.
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And then with the WNW Salmson and its unique battened double flying wires the ante will be raised... I don't see anyway to reproduce these accurately besides PE...
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if the salmson double battened wires were like the ansaldo balilla this one guy did a build a while back and i like his solution. he made a jig stretched (not tight) 2 runs of mono across at the right length. then he added this plastic strip spacer,painted then basically mounted it similar to regular mono . i think i have a link of the build although its in polish .
and heres the link scroll down and look at the way he does it. seemed to work and doesnt seem really complex.
http://www.pme.org.pl/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=117&Itemid=1
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Extremely well build and finished Snipe Dave. Lovely. I purchased PE rigging material too at the time, but reading all this I am glad I didn't use it. Happy rigging!
Kind regards
Patrick
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Thank you for the link to that site - that does not seem terribly difficult to do!
Concerning the photoetched rigging - I am thinking you would need to make the metal rigging "short" for the distance needed then somehow have a short section of elastic where it attaches to the aircraft to really make it work? That way the elastic would take up the slack and always have a small amount of tension on the photoetched piece to keep it straight and not sag?
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Does anybody know the answer to the original question?
What size flying wires are appropiate for a snipe? 2BA, 9/32" or 1/4" ? or something else?
I'm ordering a Snipe. And PE wires. ;)
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Does anybody know the answer to the original question?
What size flying wires are appropiate for a snipe? 2BA, 9/32" or 1/4" ? or something else?
I'm ordering a Snipe. And PE wires. ;)
Bo,
If you haven't already ordered I've got 3 Sets of the wires (1 Each of 32012, 14 and 15 - 2BA, 4BA and 1/4 BSF respectively) and a 32013 Set of British Wire Terminals #32013 I'll send you on a real "kick-###" deal. All untouched except for one of the 56 larger turnbuckles of the latter. There's no Optivisor strong enough for me to use them! ;) Let me know.
Cheers,
Lance
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Thanks Lance, I just may take you up on that, PM me with deets (not interested in the pe turnbuckle ends however -- I have another idea... ) -- but first, does anybody know what size the wires should be? Is this info in the appropriate WS DF? (If so, I'll order that straight away, too).
RB's website sez:
Please consult the rigging diagrams relevant to your model to assess where these wires are needed. I recommend "British Military Aircraft of World War One - The Official Technical and Rigging Notes for RFC and RNAS Fighting and Training Aeroplanes, 1914 - 1918" by John Tanner (editor), J. M. Bruce, et al. Arms & Armour Press, 1976, ISBN 0853682615
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Bo,
PM sent. There's no rigging diagram in the WS Datafile which is all I have on the Snipe. In the absence of further info I'd tend towards the Camel and/or Dolphin wire specs. There is a note on pg. 32 of the Datafile referring to Air Publication 1107 (First edition March 1925). Looks to me like a generic publication, title is "A Manual for Rigging Aircraft) Not much help I'm afraid. :-\
Cheers,
Lance
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Bo, I have the book by Mr. Tanner. The Snipe is not listed but the 1 1/2 Strutter; 5.F.1. Dolphin; Pup; 2.F.1. Camel; F.1. Camel; and Triplane are. I can compare sizes among this group for you, or give you the sizes of a particular aircraft if it would be a help.
JMTC ........ I tried the PE wires on my Snipe also with the same results as others. My procedure was to measure and cut a tad longer and "spring" the wires between opposing holes and glue .......... sagged.
Will
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Bo, I have the book by Mr. Tanner. The Snipe is not listed but the 1 1/2 Strutter; 5.F.1. Dolphin; Pup; 2.F.1. Camel; F.1. Camel; and Triplane are. I can compare sizes among this group for you, or give you the sizes of a particular aircraft if it would be a help.
JMTC ........ I tried the PE wires on my Snipe also with the same results as others. My procedure was to measure and cut a tad longer and "spring" the wires between opposing holes and glue .......... sagged.
Will
Thanks Will, I don't want to hijack Dave's topic any more than we already have (well I guess this is still sort of on topic). I guess the Dolphin would be the closest to the snipe being two-bay and all.
I did find info for the SE5a, so that's a possibility I'm mulling over as well. Extra challenge points with the double flying wires :)
Anyway, maybe we can start a topic over in Aircraft Info and Questions with wire size data for RFC / RAF planes...
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Hi Bo & co,
I will try to contact the Vintage Aviator and see if they can tell me what they used on their replica....assuming of course that they have used the historically correct wires.
If I get a reply from them I will post it back here so you all know the answer.
As an aside, and notwithstanding from the fantastic reproduction they have created, does anyone else here think they have used the wrong colour of gray on the cowlings? To me it seems way too light esp when compared with the archive photo of Barker's Snipe and also the Battleship Gray seen on the Sopwith Camel in the Imperial War Museum in London.
More questions to be answered.....
:) :)
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Egads! I'm so far behind in this subject that I will be coughing dust for a week. ;D
However, it will be very interesting to see how you fellows make out. Carry on, my
modelling heroes. :D :D
Cheers,
Ernie :)
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Found this image online - wish it was easier to read but maybe you can pull out the sizes from it with a magnifying glass?
(http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj150/petrov27/B2612a_zpsc76cfed0.jpg)
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Looks as though petrov27 has found what is needed.
As an aside and addendum to my last post, I also used the PE wire in the cockpit interior, the cross wires in the upper wing above the cockpit, and the tail planes with excellent results. I can only conclude there is flexing between the wings causing the bowing of the wires. If I were to try the PE wires again I wonder if running them through the lower wing, drawing them taught with weight, and gluing would work?
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Good find Petrov thankyou.
Interesting to note that the date of the drawing is 1925 , and that there is a comment that " complete set of wires should be tried up on machine before large quantities are made".
Looks as if they were making a new batch of wires perhaps of a strengthened variety?
I also presume the dimensions provided on the drawing wouldnt be too far away from an in service machine from 1918...-at least not in 1/32 scale!
Once again many thanks for the information. :)